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Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

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morenoingrato said:
Here's a nice political theory for all of us to get distracted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Yeah, that is bull. See, for people in power who don't want to change the status quo, because they are in power and profit from the current way things are going, for them everyone who wants to change things very similar. But for everyone else, so people who are hurt by the current system, for them different ways to change the system make a big difference. Because it is not enough to want to change things, it is important into what and how.



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Tulsi expanded the horizont of Fox News viewers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0PuAExP_R0



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018

Predictions: Switch / Switch vs. XB1 in the US / Three Houses first quarter

Guys can we not fight? This is getting really ugly...

I really want to see Biden lose the primary. Right now Biden and all his fans are cheering over how much the Bernie and Warren camps are fighting. This isn't productive at all. I'm all for offering criticisms of Warren, and can take criticisms of Bernie, but the fights in this thread don't even seem to be about the candidates anymore, it's like we're mad at each other. That's not going to help anyone. I don't even know where to jump in because it's a giant mess now.

And at the very least, can we not demonize each other? I respect all of you, we're all good people here. It's seriously bumming me out to see this.

Last edited by HylianSwordsman - on 19 September 2019

And here with this guy, we have the sort of Bernie fans that are no better than Right-Wing concern trolls. The kind of person who we need a lot less of in democratic systems. Cult of Personalities are cancer to democracy, and whether this brand of cancer favours a right-winger or a left-winger, all cancer is toxic to the system and has through history proven to be destructive in its ends to the progressive movement as a whole.

uran10 said:

oh boy.... First of all Warren is a snake, I'll just start with that and all you have to do is look at her record vs her rhetoric. On top of that she's being propped up by the media. 

It's posts like this that make Bernie's cult of personality indistinguishable from Republican concern trolls. The reality is Elizabeth Warren's record is that of a progressive which includes: Warren's updated Glass-Steagall bill, crushing corrupt Wall Street execs, and the establishment of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. If the media is a fan of that, then good for her and the progressive movement: unfortunate for you and the conservative movement or Bernie Bro movement, to whichever one you belong.

If it's the Bernie Bro movement, the irony is Bernie Sanders is also a fan of Elizabeth Warren

uran10 said:

Polls aren't very accurate either as they don't account for the boots on the ground. They oversample old folks and undersample young voters. Here are some small truths


Biden is over represented in the Polls. He's probably the front runner, but also he's probably tied with Bernie.
Bernie is under represented in the Polls. Young people don't get polled he's by far the most popular with them, he's above the rest besides Biden.
Tulsi and Yang are also Under represented. Don't be fooled, they get crowds and they have an overlap niche with young people. Especially Tulsi since she also has the election integrity vote. The vote that bernie is losing by not calling out the corruption.

Beautiful conspiracy theory, one so far from reality that you couldn't find any evidence to support it, and as such, we can dismiss it without evidence. As far as polls, where's your proof on this? If anything, it's the other way around since older people tend to be the ones more likely to vote.

Also, when you considered Yang being under-represented, I was with you since he is rising in the polls, and his support will inevitably be more significant in the end: but Tulsi Gabbard, now I know you're full of crap - she's OK, but hardly remarkable among the candidates available in terms of progressivism.

I should probably stop here since you're clearly trolling, but I'll go on.

If all of what you're saying is true, then why are you so frightened that you have to post a whole lot of fanboy/concern-trolling bullshit?

Also, where is your evidence?

uran10 said:


Warren's rise is pretty easy to explain you just have to look back at Kamala. She's the current and probably the last media darling. She's the establishment's pick whether you want to hear it or not, she is. She's getting the media boost which is also a good amount of the people who are being polled. Most of them watch corporate media and they see her and she seems to be doing well so they think about going to her. She's also picking up the anti-sanders Hillary crowd, I'd prefer to describe them in another way but I don't feel like getting banned. point is her polls are most likely inflated as well.

You just made that up. First of all, we see that the top #2 pick for Elizabeth Warren supporters is Bernie Sanders. It's not like you didn't know this since it's in this thread — the exact opposite of what you claim. 

uran10 said:

You want an actual good metric of how well candidates are doing?
Individual donors and Volunteers on the ground.
Bernie has 1 Million Volunteers and the most individual donors. These are essentially votes.
Warren is 2nd though she's done that by stealing bernie's ideas and passing them off as her own. And then she waters them down to the point where they aren't worth it.

"Stealing Bernie's ideas."

Are you for real? Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both belong to the progressive movement.

Progressivism is NOT something that was invented by Bernie Sanders. It dates back to at least the 18th century (17th if you include the English Civil War and Restoration England as part of the current day movement in the Anglo-sphere alone - which did have a profound effect on the rest of Western Civilization). The majority of the foundation and policy directions established through the 19th and early 20th century.

It sounds to me that you have been eating a lot of horse shit. 

uran10 said:

Let me say this one more time. All of Warren's "plans" (except green bombs cause lol, she's a warmonger) are stolen from bernie and have bills written by Bernie himself that she never cosponsored. She's using his talking points, his ideas and then I hear people saying she's more progressive.... like LOL NO. She's 100% fraud and you want to know why?

She takes big Money. She bundled 10mil from her senate re-election from big donors and is using that to run "grassroots" in the Primary. Then in the general back to that big money. She said it herself. Check open secrets. Look at her record. Look at her donors. She's not your friend, She's Not Progressive but she most definitely, is 100% Neoliberal.

You call her a warmonger; but if that is true, she's a poor one considering she hasn't declared a single war except for the one against corruption on Wall Street - which I fully support.

What bills did she steal from Bernie? You haven't provided any examples.

She is using the leftover money to continue her campaign. That is entirely ordinary for all types of political campaigns, including parties with strict grassroots principles. Are you suggesting that Bernie has refunded money from past campaigns? Provide evidence for this. I am not taking your word for it.

Also, she's a social democrat, not a neoliberal. Learn the difference, kid.

Now the question is what you are and why you posted such a horseshit and conspiracy theory filled rant. Are you a neoconservative concern-troll or the kind of Bernie-Bro/Bernie-Boy (who, ironically, isn't actually in favour of the same things Bernie is in support of - such as Elizabeth Warren's success)?

Learn something about the progressive movement and its history. No matter what you right-wingers/Bernie Bros may think, this isn't something that Bernie Sanders invented five years ago; this is a movement that has been going on for centuries. You may claim to be a supporter of Bernie Sanders, but (whether by choice or through ignorance) you are no friend to the values of the progressive movement to which he dedicates himself.

Last edited by Jumpin - on 19 September 2019

I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

HylianSwordsman said:

Guys can we not fight? This is getting really ugly...

I really want to see Biden lose the primary. Right now Biden and all his fans are cheering over how much the Bernie and Warren camps are fighting. This isn't productive at all. I'm all for offering criticisms of Warren, and can take criticisms of Bernie, but the fights in this thread don't even seem to be about the candidates anymore, it's like we're mad at each other. That's not going to help anyone. I don't even know where to jump in because it's a giant mess now.

And at the very least, can we not demonize each other? I respect all of you, we're all good people here. It's seriously bumming me out to see this.

Agreed. I support both Bernie and Liz (Bernie being my preference) but Biden is the person all progressives should be concerned about no matter what camp you fall into. I'm thankful Warren is showing strong signs of a fight now, any progressive energizing the electorate is a win.



 

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Jumpin said:

And here with this guy, we have the sort of Bernie fans that are no better than Right-Wing concern trolls. The kind of person who we need a lot less of in democratic systems. Cult of Personalities are cancer to democracy, and whether this brand of cancer favours a right-winger or a left-winger, all cancer is toxic to the system and has through history proven to be destructive in its ends to the progressive movement as a whole.

uran10 said:

oh boy.... First of all Warren is a snake, I'll just start with that and all you have to do is look at her record vs her rhetoric. On top of that she's being propped up by the media. 

It's posts like this that make Bernie's cult of personality indistinguishable from Republican concern trolls. The reality is Elizabeth Warren's record is that of a progressive which includes: Warren's updated Glass-Steagall bill, crushing corrupt Wall Street execs, and the establishment of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. If the media is a fan of that, then good for her and the progressive movement: unfortunate for you and the conservative movement or Bernie Bro movement, to whichever one you belong.

If it's the Bernie Bro movement, the irony is Bernie Sanders is also a fan of Elizabeth Warren

uran10 said:

Polls aren't very accurate either as they don't account for the boots on the ground. They oversample old folks and undersample young voters. Here are some small truths


Biden is over represented in the Polls. He's probably the front runner, but also he's probably tied with Bernie.
Bernie is under represented in the Polls. Young people don't get polled he's by far the most popular with them, he's above the rest besides Biden.
Tulsi and Yang are also Under represented. Don't be fooled, they get crowds and they have an overlap niche with young people. Especially Tulsi since she also has the election integrity vote. The vote that bernie is losing by not calling out the corruption.

Beautiful conspiracy theory, one so far from reality that you couldn't find any evidence to support it, and as such, we can dismiss it without evidence. As far as polls, where's your proof on this? If anything, it's the other way around since older people tend to be the ones more likely to vote.

Also, when you considered Yang being under-represented, I was with you since he is rising in the polls, and his support will inevitably be more significant in the end: but Tulsi Gabbard, now I know you're full of crap - she's a weak speaker, has no unique positions (her main thing is get the troops out of the middle east, which was so ordinary that it was also Obama's thing) and otherwise unremarkable aside from her military service. I should probably stop here, but I'll go on.

If all of what you're saying is true, then why are you so frightened that you have to post a whole lot of fanboy/concern-trolling bullshit?

Also, where is your evidence?

uran10 said:


Warren's rise is pretty easy to explain you just have to look back at Kamala. She's the current and probably the last media darling. She's the establishment's pick whether you want to hear it or not, she is. She's getting the media boost which is also a good amount of the people who are being polled. Most of them watch corporate media and they see her and she seems to be doing well so they think about going to her. She's also picking up the anti-sanders Hillary crowd, I'd prefer to describe them in another way but I don't feel like getting banned. point is her polls are most likely inflated as well.

You just made that up. First of all, we see that the top #2 pick for Elizabeth Warren supporters is Bernie Sanders. It's not like you didn't know this since it's in this thread — the exact opposite of what you claim. 

uran10 said:

You want an actual good metric of how well candidates are doing?
Individual donors and Volunteers on the ground.
Bernie has 1 Million Volunteers and the most individual donors. These are essentially votes.
Warren is 2nd though she's done that by stealing bernie's ideas and passing them off as her own. And then she waters them down to the point where they aren't worth it.

"Stealing Bernie's ideas."

Are you for real? Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren both belong to the progressive movement.

Progressivism is NOT something that was invented by Bernie Sanders. It dates back to at least the 18th century (17th if you include the English Civil War and Restoration England as part of the current day movement in the Anglo-sphere alone - which did have a profound effect on the rest of Western Civilization). The majority of the foundation and policy directions established through the 19th and early 20th century.

It sounds to me that you have been eating a lot of horse shit. 

uran10 said:

Let me say this one more time. All of Warren's "plans" (except green bombs cause lol, she's a warmonger) are stolen from bernie and have bills written by Bernie himself that she never cosponsored. She's using his talking points, his ideas and then I hear people saying she's more progressive.... like LOL NO. She's 100% fraud and you want to know why?

She takes big Money. She bundled 10mil from her senate re-election from big donors and is using that to run "grassroots" in the Primary. Then in the general back to that big money. She said it herself. Check open secrets. Look at her record. Look at her donors. She's not your friend, She's Not Progressive but she most definitely, is 100% Neoliberal.

You call her a warmonger; but if that is true, she's a poor one considering she hasn't declared a single war except for the one against corruption on Wall Street - which I fully support.

What bills did she steal from Bernie? You haven't provided any examples.

She is using the leftover money to continue her campaign. That is entirely ordinary for all types of political campaigns, including parties with strict grassroots principles. Are you suggesting that Bernie has refunded money from past campaigns? Provide evidence for this. I am not taking your word for it.

Also, she's a social democrat, not a neoliberal. Learn the difference, kid.

Now the question is what you are and why you posted such a horseshit and conspiracy theory filled rant. Are you a neoconservative concern-troll or the kind of Bernie-Bro/Bernie-Boy (who, ironically, isn't actually in favour of the same things Bernie is in support of - such as Elizabeth Warren's success)?

Learn something about the progressive movement and its history. No matter what you right-wingers/Bernie Bros may think, this isn't something that Bernie Sanders invented five years ago; this is a movement that has been going on for centuries. You may claim to be a supporter of Bernie Sanders, but (whether by choice or through ignorance) you are no friend to the values of the progressive movement to which he dedicates himself.

Let's start with the personality. I do not give a rats ass about who the person is, I care about policy and no other candidates besides Bernie and Tulsi support what I want, or do I trust what I want. Don't come with that to me. I'm populist left, that's it.

Now on to warren's record. I know of it, I've watched and seen it and let me tell you, she hasn't done as much as you think. She's basically wagged her finger at wall street bankers and called it fighting. She's called them out then essentially done nothing. Oh and here we are, the bernie bro smear. Did you know that over 50% of his supporters are female and that his base is incredibly diverse when you're coming with this? okay thanks bye with this. And no sir, she's not a progressive champion, she is a neoliberal plain and simple. She's obama like.

Okay On to the tulsi thing, I'm telling you she has a lot of supporters and a lot of berners are supporting her, So I don't know where you're coming from with this but I follow Tulsi very clearly and her main thing is foreign policy. Its not just bringing the troops home, its about ending the wars and supporting diplomatic relations. She's also very good domestically and she's already went on record for election integrity, she introduced a bill to congress, I forgot the name but It was along the lines of the safe elections act. Would have ensured paper ballots be used as backup during the elections amidst the russiagate BS. She also has the off act which btw, is better than AOC's Green new deal so yea, Tulsi's support is real. She's also supporting other progressive policies so lol no. I want you to pay attention to Tulsi's events. She fills them up, sometimes she has to move to bigger venues so when I'm telling you she has more support than these polls say I mean she does. Yang may be pushing it a bit but he's also an outsider which is why the polling most likely doesn't represent him properly. We went through this polling song and dance in 2016, anyone remember how that ended? Oh yea, bernie outperformed the polls.

Next one: Yes stealing bernie's ideas. Every single thing that bernie has introduced warren has taken and acted as if it was her creation over this election cycle. The only one she hasn't claimed is M4A cause she's wishy washy as all hell on it. Go through the legislation both have introduced before the election cycle, go back and listen to old bernie and old warren. Bernie has been light years ahead of her on basically everything, I mean he wasn't a republican throughout the Regan years like somebody and bought all that free market crap so yea. When I say she's stealing Bern's ideas I mean look at their policies and what they say. Bernie/Tulsi says something.... then warren parrots. pay attention, this even goes into talking points. (its still funny cause her stance is to the right of bernie and her policies reflect that and she's a neoliberal still. Better than the rest sure, but she's still in that category)

Warmonger.... this one is easy. HER PRO WAR VOTING RECORD. She's also voted to increase the military budget as well, and have you listened to her on Iran, Venezuela etc? Bro... fr When I say she's a neoliberal war hawk, all you have to do is watch her votes. This one is the clearest.

The only Social Democrats in this race are Bernie and Tulsi, their policies and record speak for themselves. You clearly need to do more research into warren and into Tulsi cause you've missed a lot of stances. Also no, I don't think Bernie invented anything I'm pretty sure he's just left of centre on the global scale so when I say she steals ideas I mean she literally takes the stuff he has been pushing over his 40 year career, act like she came up with this wonderful "plan" and pushes a half baked, watered down version of it.

M4A: she's wishy washy

Cancelling student debt: watered down
Like I can go on.

Instead of being so condescending maybe YOU should be the one doing research into their records cause you just said a WHOLE LOT OF MISINFORMATION.



Japan Switch Sales comparison vs 3ds and Wii u: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=226216&page=1

tsogud said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Guys can we not fight? This is getting really ugly...

I really want to see Biden lose the primary. Right now Biden and all his fans are cheering over how much the Bernie and Warren camps are fighting. This isn't productive at all. I'm all for offering criticisms of Warren, and can take criticisms of Bernie, but the fights in this thread don't even seem to be about the candidates anymore, it's like we're mad at each other. That's not going to help anyone. I don't even know where to jump in because it's a giant mess now.

And at the very least, can we not demonize each other? I respect all of you, we're all good people here. It's seriously bumming me out to see this.

Agreed. I support both Bernie and Liz (Bernie being my preference) but Biden is the person all progressives should be concerned about no matter what camp you fall into. I'm thankful Warren is showing strong signs of a fight now, any progressive energizing the electorate is a win.

I'm a lot more cynical than you cause I only trust Bernie and Tulsi. Especially since Warren stated she would take corporate money and the big money interest are willing to settle with her. She's also courting the insiders of the party which she claims to fight and is bolstering her campaign with 10mil corp cash. She's wishy washy on M4A, she endorsed Hillary and she's been backtracking on things including whether the primary was rigged or not.

Let me be honest here, I wouldn't vote for her and I know many others who are the same and she continues to rub Bernie supporters the wrong way each time she opens her mouth lately. She probably would lose to trump in the general. Her poor political instincts are catching up to her and these "calculations" as some like to describe it just look bad and makes her not trustworthy. And that is the biggest reason why I would never vote for her. I don't trust her.



Japan Switch Sales comparison vs 3ds and Wii u: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=226216&page=1

uran10 said:
tsogud said:

Agreed. I support both Bernie and Liz (Bernie being my preference) but Biden is the person all progressives should be concerned about no matter what camp you fall into. I'm thankful Warren is showing strong signs of a fight now, any progressive energizing the electorate is a win.

I'm a lot more cynical than you cause I only trust Bernie and Tulsi. Especially since Warren stated she would take corporate money and the big money interest are willing to settle with her. She's also courting the insiders of the party which she claims to fight and is bolstering her campaign with 10mil corp cash. She's wishy washy on M4A, she endorsed Hillary and she's been backtracking on things including whether the primary was rigged or not.

Let me be honest here, I wouldn't vote for her and I know many others who are the same and she continues to rub Bernie supporters the wrong way each time she opens her mouth lately. She probably would lose to trump in the general. Her poor political instincts are catching up to her and these "calculations" as some like to describe it just look bad and makes her not trustworthy. And that is the biggest reason why I would never vote for her. I don't trust her.

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion and vote. Those are legitimate criticisms but for me, the point to which I stop supporting Liz is when she takes corporate/big money donations. Hopefully she makes the right choice and doesn't do that but until then she has my support. I'll vote for any Dem in the general but it'll be an antipathetic vote if Biden won the nomination.



 

tsogud said:
uran10 said:

I'm a lot more cynical than you cause I only trust Bernie and Tulsi. Especially since Warren stated she would take corporate money and the big money interest are willing to settle with her. She's also courting the insiders of the party which she claims to fight and is bolstering her campaign with 10mil corp cash. She's wishy washy on M4A, she endorsed Hillary and she's been backtracking on things including whether the primary was rigged or not.

Let me be honest here, I wouldn't vote for her and I know many others who are the same and she continues to rub Bernie supporters the wrong way each time she opens her mouth lately. She probably would lose to trump in the general. Her poor political instincts are catching up to her and these "calculations" as some like to describe it just look bad and makes her not trustworthy. And that is the biggest reason why I would never vote for her. I don't trust her.

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion and vote. Those are legitimate criticisms but for me, the point to which I stop supporting Liz is when she takes corporate/big money donations. Hopefully she makes the right choice and doesn't do that but until then she has my support. I'll vote for any Dem in the general but it'll be an antipathetic vote if Biden won the nomination.

The thing is tho, she's already done it. Her last race, 2018 senate she took any and all money. Then used the 10 mil surplus to push her presidential campaign. Then she says in the general that she will take it. That's why my trust is 100% gone with her. To me she's shown her cards and she's with the establishment. I see some of my fave youtubers feeling hurt and trying to rationalize everything she's doing and trying to defend her but I don't see how she can be defended. I think she's there to ensure bernie doesn't win. The biggest red flag besides media coverage is that she met with hillary. Like nah... I cannot trust her at all and I feel people need to be more cynical when it comes to her as well.



Japan Switch Sales comparison vs 3ds and Wii u: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=226216&page=1

uran10 said:
tsogud said:

Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion and vote. Those are legitimate criticisms but for me, the point to which I stop supporting Liz is when she takes corporate/big money donations. Hopefully she makes the right choice and doesn't do that but until then she has my support. I'll vote for any Dem in the general but it'll be an antipathetic vote if Biden won the nomination.

The thing is tho, she's already done it. Her last race, 2018 senate she took any and all money. Then used the 10 mil surplus to push her presidential campaign. Then she says in the general that she will take it. That's why my trust is 100% gone with her. To me she's shown her cards and she's with the establishment. I see some of my fave youtubers feeling hurt and trying to rationalize everything she's doing and trying to defend her but I don't see how she can be defended. I think she's there to ensure bernie doesn't win. The biggest red flag besides media coverage is that she met with hillary. Like nah... I cannot trust her at all and I feel people need to be more cynical when it comes to her as well.

Yeah I've known about her 2018 race and 10mil surplus and my trust in her has definitely declined but as I said until she takes corp/big money in this race, she has my support. The way I see it currently is if I can't have Bernie I'd still be happy with Warren but I definitely don't want Biden.