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Active shooter situation reported in Christchurch, New Zealand

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forest-spirit said:

Did some research, found his manifesto. Yeah, this is the deed of some worthless extreme-right nutjob, done as "revenge" for terror attacks in Europe and to preserve the holy white race and other crap.

He is a big supporter of communism so he is just as much a far left nutjob.



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o_O.Q said:
HylianSwordsman said:

"I could say the similar things about conservative Christians and their regressive views on women, but I don't. For a long time, the country was majority conservative Christian, only recently have they lost enough ground to progressive Christianity and atheism"

good so why are you in favour of islam's growing influence?

progressive christianity? that should be interesting, explain that one

 

"I never at any point said they should leave the country or that we should kill them"

and you think this is candace owen's intent? in the tweet you quoted did she imply that muslims should be killed or forced to leave the country?

 

"It's the regressive views that need to be combated in whatever form they take, not the people that hold them."

regressive views on women are integral to many religions and islam is definitely one of them in my opinion

no one is saying that these people are a problem, the stated problem is their ideology

 

" Remember when Clinton called a whole bunch of people "deplorable"?"

i'm not a republican or a conservative so i don't see why you would look for a specific example you think i agree with and no if its her opinion that certain people are deplorable then its good that she said it if she can justify her argument

we would both agree that rapists are deplorable right? why?

 

"or treat them like their very presence might be a problem like in Candace's case."

as i've said previously,, if those people have regressive views on women, I can understand why candace as a woman would be concerned about their influence growing... i suppose what is interesting is that you don't think her concern is justified

 

" it's how she expresses it and what her solutions are for dealing with it."

as i've said before if you aren't able to realise that she wasn't being literally when she said an army should be built then you need to step away from the internet for a bit

ok lets follow this thread of though, are you seriously telling me that candace thinks that the military of france is going to take strategic advice from a 30 year old political commentator? sounds absolutely ridiculous right? so why are you pretending that this is the case?

 

" You said it yourself, it doesn't make sense. Armies don't fix birth rates."

exactly she said it tongue in cheek, when you have conversations with people are you always this oblivious to communication that's not overt? i'd hope not

 

"He got his conclusion from Candace's statement"

the man that assaulted the woman was inspired to do so by seeing the woman... you see how that works?

you aren't looking at the fact that the person is crazy and the sole blame for their actions lies on them, instead you have to look for someone else to drag into it even though you cannot logically link candace's statements to the crime

 

"Well that's because it's not the demographics that are the issue. It's the values system. "

value systems increase or decrease proportionally with the populations that they live in

 

" They teach women to expect a man to be rich and able to completely provide for them, and to date based on that, instead of love. "

the preference of women for men who hold more resources is almost universal and is seen across just about every value system and its almost universal in the animal kingdom as well... so you're barking up the wrong tree there

 

"there have to be overarching values that we cherish across all the cultures. Those overarching values often inform the future direction of the multiple cultures living within the society. So for America, we value life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness."

islam as a religion is not compatible with liberty and the pursuit of happiness for women, so again where are you going with this? ( i could be wrong on the views of islam on women but from eveerything i've experienced i don't think so )

 

"They maintained their cultural identity, but evolved towards the greater American culture of liberty and justice for all, with all of us equal"

you are contradicting yourself, how can a cultural identify partially based on suppressing women result in everyone being equal?

 

"It's the power of our democracy. "

american is not a democracy and you better pray it never becomes that

 

"My initial quoting of that tweet was because you asked for an example of Candace Owens talking about Muslims"

you were supposed to provide an example of rhetoric that could logically be used as motivation for this shooting

I can;t go over the long waffling you guys have been having but I can say your view on Islam and women is wrong. Islam respects women in high regard, and says men and women are equal but not the same. The stuff you see are you confusing culture with religion. The culture of Saudi Arabia is disgusting in regards to women. That is the distinction. Islamic history is filled with strong, noble women from it's inception up to today and if Islam prevailed over culture in the nudrmi East and South Asia, the image you'd see would be very different. There are problems with Muslims and how we treat women but we are failing our religion rather than following it. Our views and treatment of women is only one example of that. Salafism came to be in the 18th and 19th century and has twisted what Islam is into a hideous repulsive thing. If you go back to traditional Islam and our values, you'll see the difference of Islam and the culture of the different muslim communities. You can also see that in the way the canadian Muslim community conducts itself for example. The culture of Canada stimulates us to be better Muslims Vs the culture of pakistan for example.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Metroid33slayer said:
forest-spirit said:

Did some research, found his manifesto. Yeah, this is the deed of some worthless extreme-right nutjob, done as "revenge" for terror attacks in Europe and to preserve the holy white race and other crap.

He is a big supporter of communism so he is just as much a far left nutjob.

And if he shot a bunch of business owners at a convention I'd agree he's just as much a far left nutjob, but his manifesto is called "the great replacement" and he shot muslims.  I suppose you can argue he felt about both equally strongly but he just flipped a coin for which he would take action, but I think we can infer from his actions he probably cares about one of these things much more than the others. 



...

Metroid33slayer said:
forest-spirit said:

Did some research, found his manifesto. Yeah, this is the deed of some worthless extreme-right nutjob, done as "revenge" for terror attacks in Europe and to preserve the holy white race and other crap.

He is a big supporter of communism so he is just as much a far left nutjob.

How is he a supporter of communism?  



Eagle367 said:
o_O.Q said:

"I could say the similar things about conservative Christians and their regressive views on women, but I don't. For a long time, the country was majority conservative Christian, only recently have they lost enough ground to progressive Christianity and atheism"

good so why are you in favour of islam's growing influence?

progressive christianity? that should be interesting, explain that one

 

"I never at any point said they should leave the country or that we should kill them"

and you think this is candace owen's intent? in the tweet you quoted did she imply that muslims should be killed or forced to leave the country?

 

"It's the regressive views that need to be combated in whatever form they take, not the people that hold them."

regressive views on women are integral to many religions and islam is definitely one of them in my opinion

no one is saying that these people are a problem, the stated problem is their ideology

 

" Remember when Clinton called a whole bunch of people "deplorable"?"

i'm not a republican or a conservative so i don't see why you would look for a specific example you think i agree with and no if its her opinion that certain people are deplorable then its good that she said it if she can justify her argument

we would both agree that rapists are deplorable right? why?

 

"or treat them like their very presence might be a problem like in Candace's case."

as i've said previously,, if those people have regressive views on women, I can understand why candace as a woman would be concerned about their influence growing... i suppose what is interesting is that you don't think her concern is justified

 

" it's how she expresses it and what her solutions are for dealing with it."

as i've said before if you aren't able to realise that she wasn't being literally when she said an army should be built then you need to step away from the internet for a bit

ok lets follow this thread of though, are you seriously telling me that candace thinks that the military of france is going to take strategic advice from a 30 year old political commentator? sounds absolutely ridiculous right? so why are you pretending that this is the case?

 

" You said it yourself, it doesn't make sense. Armies don't fix birth rates."

exactly she said it tongue in cheek, when you have conversations with people are you always this oblivious to communication that's not overt? i'd hope not

 

"He got his conclusion from Candace's statement"

the man that assaulted the woman was inspired to do so by seeing the woman... you see how that works?

you aren't looking at the fact that the person is crazy and the sole blame for their actions lies on them, instead you have to look for someone else to drag into it even though you cannot logically link candace's statements to the crime

 

"Well that's because it's not the demographics that are the issue. It's the values system. "

value systems increase or decrease proportionally with the populations that they live in

 

" They teach women to expect a man to be rich and able to completely provide for them, and to date based on that, instead of love. "

the preference of women for men who hold more resources is almost universal and is seen across just about every value system and its almost universal in the animal kingdom as well... so you're barking up the wrong tree there

 

"there have to be overarching values that we cherish across all the cultures. Those overarching values often inform the future direction of the multiple cultures living within the society. So for America, we value life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness."

islam as a religion is not compatible with liberty and the pursuit of happiness for women, so again where are you going with this? ( i could be wrong on the views of islam on women but from eveerything i've experienced i don't think so )

 

"They maintained their cultural identity, but evolved towards the greater American culture of liberty and justice for all, with all of us equal"

you are contradicting yourself, how can a cultural identify partially based on suppressing women result in everyone being equal?

 

"It's the power of our democracy. "

american is not a democracy and you better pray it never becomes that

 

"My initial quoting of that tweet was because you asked for an example of Candace Owens talking about Muslims"

you were supposed to provide an example of rhetoric that could logically be used as motivation for this shooting

I can;t go over the long waffling you guys have been having but I can say your view on Islam and women is wrong. Islam respects women in high regard, and says men and women are equal but not the same. The stuff you see are you confusing culture with religion. The culture of Saudi Arabia is disgusting in regards to women. That is the distinction. Islamic history is filled with strong, noble women from it's inception up to today and if Islam prevailed over culture in the nudrmi East and South Asia, the image you'd see would be very different. There are problems with Muslims and how we treat women but we are failing our religion rather than following it. Our views and treatment of women is only one example of that. Salafism came to be in the 18th and 19th century and has twisted what Islam is into a hideous repulsive thing. If you go back to traditional Islam and our values, you'll see the difference of Islam and the culture of the different muslim communities. You can also see that in the way the canadian Muslim community conducts itself for example. The culture of Canada stimulates us to be better Muslims Vs the culture of pakistan for example.

so you're telling me that i can't take the koran and pull out verses calling for the subjugation of women?

" says men and women are equal but not the same"

what do you mean by not the same?



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o_O.Q said:
Eagle367 said:

I can;t go over the long waffling you guys have been having but I can say your view on Islam and women is wrong. Islam respects women in high regard, and says men and women are equal but not the same. The stuff you see are you confusing culture with religion. The culture of Saudi Arabia is disgusting in regards to women. That is the distinction. Islamic history is filled with strong, noble women from it's inception up to today and if Islam prevailed over culture in the nudrmi East and South Asia, the image you'd see would be very different. There are problems with Muslims and how we treat women but we are failing our religion rather than following it. Our views and treatment of women is only one example of that. Salafism came to be in the 18th and 19th century and has twisted what Islam is into a hideous repulsive thing. If you go back to traditional Islam and our values, you'll see the difference of Islam and the culture of the different muslim communities. You can also see that in the way the canadian Muslim community conducts itself for example. The culture of Canada stimulates us to be better Muslims Vs the culture of pakistan for example.

so you're telling me that i can't take the koran and pull out verses calling for the subjugation of women?

" says men and women are equal but not the same"

what do you mean by not the same?

I didn't even mention the Qur'an but you have to know the entire context of things in the Qur'an, not the isolated verses you pull out. Each verse has a history and a story behind it. The words in Arabic mean various things and people write huge articles per verse to describe everything after attaining years of knowledge about the Qur'an, Arabic, islamic history and hadith that are valid and provide more meat to the sketch;Eton of the verse.

Regarding equal but not the same, do men have periods? Do men breast feed? Do women have a penis and balls? Are men biologically stronger or women? Is the physiology, anatomy and psychology of men and women the same? The equal but different thing applies to all humans by the way, not just between men and women. 

Going back to the verses of the Qur'an;an, what you understand from it and what it is are 2 very different things. People with hate in their hearts look for hate everywhere and that's what terrorist scum do. People with malice in their hearts look for malice. That's why scholars trained for years to look at things analytically and not emotionally are valued and should be valued and should be listened to. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:
o_O.Q said:

so you're telling me that i can't take the koran and pull out verses calling for the subjugation of women?

" says men and women are equal but not the same"

what do you mean by not the same?

I didn't even mention the Qur'an but you have to know the entire context of things in the Qur'an, not the isolated verses you pull out. Each verse has a history and a story behind it. The words in Arabic mean various things and people write huge articles per verse to describe everything after attaining years of knowledge about the Qur'an, Arabic, islamic history and hadith that are valid and provide more meat to the sketch;Eton of the verse.

Regarding equal but not the same, do men have periods? Do men breast feed? Do women have a penis and balls? Are men biologically stronger or women? Is the physiology, anatomy and psychology of men and women the same? The equal but different thing applies to all humans by the way, not just between men and women. 

Going back to the verses of the Qur'an;an, what you understand from it and what it is are 2 very different things. People with hate in their hearts look for hate everywhere and that's what terrorist scum do. People with malice in their hearts look for malice. That's why scholars trained for years to look at things analytically and not emotionally are valued and should be valued and should be listened to. 

"I didn't even mention the Qur'an but you have to know the entire context of things in the Qur'an, not the isolated verses you pull out."

fair enough, but come on you have to admit that this is problematic

Quran (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also verse 4:176).

Quran (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women.

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]" 

Quran (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it"

Quran (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

etc etc etc

 

"Regarding equal but not the same, do men have periods? Do men breast feed? Do women have a penis and balls? Are men biologically stronger or women? Is the physiology, anatomy and psychology of men and women the same?"

the law in many western countries disregards all of that, since it is now law that a man at any point can identify as a woman and a woman at anytime can identify as a man

to people on the vanguard of the progressive movement your comments were highly transphobic



Pinkie_pie said:
Bloody aussie. I told you all they are dangerous. I dont feel save living here in melbourne

If you feel unsafe  maybe for your own mental welfare you should look at finding a place that makes you feel safer if possible ,  but don't play the blame game like I said before  on this thread , extremism has no set  nationality religion or ideology  the degradation of Australians based on the actions of one person  is akin to blaming all muslims for religious extremism.

Last edited by mjk45 - on 20 March 2019

o_O.Q said:
HylianSwordsman said:

"I could say the similar things about conservative Christians and their regressive views on women, but I don't. For a long time, the country was majority conservative Christian, only recently have they lost enough ground to progressive Christianity and atheism"

good so why are you in favour of islam's growing influence?

I'm not.

progressive christianity? that should be interesting, explain that one

Episcopalian and the like. The ones that allow gay marriage, encourage immigration and try to house refugees.

"I never at any point said they should leave the country or that we should kill them"

and you think this is candace owen's intent? in the tweet you quoted did she imply that muslims should be killed or forced to leave the country?

I can't prove it was her intent, no. I think, as you do, that she wants it not to spread, and that the tweet seemed to imply that somehow an army would somehow deal with the problem of falling birth rates, and thereby the spread of Islam.

"It's the regressive views that need to be combated in whatever form they take, not the people that hold them."

regressive views on women are integral to many religions and islam is definitely one of them in my opinion

no one is saying that these people are a problem, the stated problem is their ideology

Nah, they're not integral. A lot of the regressive views are cultural, not ideological. Most religions boil down to "Don't be a dick."

" Remember when Clinton called a whole bunch of people "deplorable"?"

i'm not a republican or a conservative so i don't see why you would look for a specific example you think i agree with and no if its her opinion that certain people are deplorable then its good that she said it if she can justify her argument

 Oh don't pretend you don't remember that. It was all over the news. Long story short, it was based on them supporting Trump, with the suggestion that literally half of his supporters were white supremacists. She didn't outright say it, but it was implied. Kind of like Candace's thing, implying that the presence of Muslims is bad without outright saying so. 

we would both agree that rapists are deplorable right? why?

Pfft. This is either a rhetorical question, or a waste of time to discuss.

"or treat them like their very presence might be a problem like in Candace's case."

as i've said previously,, if those people have regressive views on women, I can understand why candace as a woman would be concerned about their influence growing... i suppose what is interesting is that you don't think her concern is justified

As I've said previously, the people aren't the problem, but she's making them the problem rather than their values, which is what should actually be attacked.

" it's how she expresses it and what her solutions are for dealing with it."

as i've said before if you aren't able to realise that she wasn't being literally when she said an army should be built then you need to step away from the internet for a bit

You keep focusing on me and what I think. I only brought any of this up because the shooter seems to think that. He DEFINITELY should step away from the internet.

ok lets follow this thread of though, are you seriously telling me that candace thinks that the military of france is going to take strategic advice from a 30 year old political commentator? sounds absolutely ridiculous right? so why are you pretending that this is the case?

Nope. Not pretending it either.

" You said it yourself, it doesn't make sense. Armies don't fix birth rates."

exactly she said it tongue in cheek, when you have conversations with people are you always this oblivious to communication that's not overt? i'd hope not

It's a short little tweet, people try to say more with the few characters they have, and people take a lot from them all the time. Never said I did, but the shooter did. I didn't have the conversation, like I said, I just found her when I googled her to help you.

"He got his conclusion from Candace's statement"

the man that assaulted the woman was inspired to do so by seeing the woman... you see how that works?

you aren't looking at the fact that the person is crazy and the sole blame for their actions lies on them, instead you have to look for someone else to drag into it even though you cannot logically link candace's statements to the crime

No I agree with you. Always did. Candace isn't at fault.

"Well that's because it's not the demographics that are the issue. It's the values system. "

value systems increase or decrease proportionally with the populations that they live in

Not if you can change the population's mind.

" They teach women to expect a man to be rich and able to completely provide for them, and to date based on that, instead of love. "

the preference of women for men who hold more resources is almost universal and is seen across just about every value system and its almost universal in the animal kingdom as well... so you're barking up the wrong tree there

You obviously aren't aware how much of a problem it is in Japan.

"there have to be overarching values that we cherish across all the cultures. Those overarching values often inform the future direction of the multiple cultures living within the society. So for America, we value life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness."

islam as a religion is not compatible with liberty and the pursuit of happiness for women, so again where are you going with this? ( i could be wrong on the views of islam on women but from eveerything i've experienced i don't think so )

Religion changes. It isn't just the fundamentalist interpretation of its holy book. You can interpret it multiple ways. Call such people hypocrites if you like. There are movements within Islam towards respect for women and respect for other religions. Such movements made great strides in Christianity, and we're starting to see it happen with Islam. Give it time. Religion is alive in the people that follow it. It isn't ever just a holy book.

"They maintained their cultural identity, but evolved towards the greater American culture of liberty and justice for all, with all of us equal"

you are contradicting yourself, how can a cultural identify partially based on suppressing women result in everyone being equal?

Nope. We don't always live up to our values perfectly, but we value them, that's why they're called values. We work towards them, no one perfectly lives up to their values.

"It's the power of our democracy. "

american is not a democracy and you better pray it never becomes that

Lol, I definitely want it to become more democratic. I recognize it's not a direct democracy, but I would love for it to be.

"My initial quoting of that tweet was because you asked for an example of Candace Owens talking about Muslims"

you were supposed to provide an example of rhetoric that could logically be used as motivation for this shooting

Ah sorry, I missed the "logically" part. Still, the shooter is crazed, so he doesn't need a logical connection, just a way to make absurd, illogical leaps to what he wants to do. Like I said, though, I don't blame Candace. I think you're mistaking me for someone else.



o_O.Q said:

Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

I was actually looking at some bible verses the other day and this isn't really anything that would be out of place in the bible:

1 Corinthians 11:  For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man,   For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Timothy 3: But I (Apostle Paul) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve

And there is a lot more about modesty, a woman's place in the home etc.. Women are not considered equal to man but one step below man as man are one step below God.