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"Leaving Neverland": Do you think Michael Jackson is Innocent?

Forums - General Discussion - "Leaving Neverland": Do you think Michael Jackson is Innocent?

Thriller and Invincible or Bad and Dangerous

Good guy, wrongly accused 48 52.17%
 
Talented Bad guy 23 25.00%
 
A little of both. 21 22.83%
 
Total:92
LudicrousSpeed said:

Theres no rational reason to believe MJ was anything other than a piece of shit pedophile after you see or read about the documentary, read what the FBI found in his houses in the early 90’s and 00’s and just by observing his fucking behavior back then. He wasn’t even trying to hide it.

The FBI found found nothing in 300 pages of documents on him. 



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As was the case with Brett Kavanaugh, the issue is not whether we believe him to be innocent or not, but whether there is proof that he is guilty. That is all that matters, and cleary there is not and has never been been any since he was never found guilty in a court of law. To come after him now, now that he's dead and can't defend himself, is just sickening. When I read the simpsons creators explain why they've decided to ban the Michael Jackson episode because of this, it's absolutely disgusting. They have been aware of what the accusations are and have never had issues with it. And now it's all "Oh, we believe he's guilty, so we're banning the episode". Rather, they profited off of him as much as they could during his life, and now they see this as a way to get a "second bang" for their buck by throwing him under the bus, hoping it'll satisfy and please the bloodthirsty lefties who believe accusations without proof should be enough to ruin a person's reputation and win them their favors.

Those who are ready to condemn Jackson now had better hope no one they love meets the same fate. If someone they know and love has something similar happen to them, I hope the guilt of knowing that they contributed to creating such a world by blindly believing "victims" and by not asking for proof will haunt them until they die.



My take has always been this: I find it highly dubious that MJ ever had sex with anyone, any grown ass woman (or man), let alone some little kid. I think he was a "FREAK", yes, absolutely. His dad fucked him up psychologically big time, and he felt SO strongly that he was robbed of having a childhood, that when he grew up, had his own money and was independent of his pops finally, he was determined, in his head, to make up for that. MJ was always a big kid. Psychologically, emotionally, etc., he acted like a kid.

Does that PRECLUDE him from molesting kids? No. Is it POSSIBLE that he did? Of course. But do I believe he did? No, I don't, and never have. This documentary is highly dubious. The two main figures in it testified in court, UNDER OATH, in favor of Jackson, against other alleged victims, claiming he was innocent. There is a quote from Robson after Jackson's death in 2009, praising the shit out of him and claiming he'll never forget him or the positive impact he had. Then come 2013, these two guys file a joint lawsuit against the Jackson Estate, for $1.5 billion. Because yeah, it's TOTALLY not about money. Now they do this smut documentary by HBO, which everyone and their fucking brother decides "YUP, it's proof! NO WAY these guys are faking." Right.

At the end of the day, people are going to believe what they want to believe, full stop.



At the risk of kicking a hornet's nest...

Was MJ weird? Definitely. Was he a pedophile that molested children? I doubt it. There just hasn't been any solid, credible evidence to establish guilt. The two guys in this "documentary" have dubious credibility on the matter.

However, this "documentary" was released in the #MeToo era, where anyone who is accused of sexual misconduct is automatically treated as guilty until proven innocent by the court of public opinion. While there are plenty of legitimate claims of sexual assault (Bill Cosby being perhaps the most notable actual criminal conviction), the fact that someone that's accused of being a predator is automatically treated as a toxic asset makes it easy to weaponize such claims. And the claims against Michael Jackson aren't new, and have existed since the 90s. But these new accusations came out in 2019, and so many of us wish to "un-person" him.

Personally, I have a huge problem with this attitude that entertainers should be un-personed for accusations or even actual commission of some wrongdoing. While I have my doubts regarding Jackson's guilt, even if he is guilty, why should we have to permanently treat him and everything he has done as if he never existed? How much of our culture are we willing to bury because an entertainer had skeletons in their closet? When will it end? Should we condemn Thriller, or The Usual Suspects, or Rurouni Kenshin, or some other work of art to the metaphorical memory hole because their creators or stars were accused of being or actually are/were horrible people? Can we separate a person's art from the person's behavior? Because of these renewed accusations towards MJ, we're now seeing his music pulled from some radio stations, and the producers of The Simpsons pulled the beloved classic "Stark Raving Dad" episode from streaming and all future home video releases. Even some online forums have made it official policy that MJ is guilty and that defending the man is a bannable offense.

We certainly don't deny ourselves important inventions or other non-art contributions to society even if the inventor/creator was a horrible person. Coca-Cola has a racist history. Modern rocketry owes its existence to a card-carrying member of the Nazi SS. Henry Ford was an anti-Semite. William Shockley was a virulent racist. Even Thomas Edison was a person of very questionable character (not a sexual deviant, but definitely a massive prick). Many of America's Founders were slave owners. Yet we continue to enjoy the things they contributed, despite them all being people who are varying degrees of awful. Why can't we all do the same with art? The difference in utilitarian value should make no difference.

Condemn the person if they are guilty, but don't erase their contributions to society.

EDIT: I also have to point out that MJ has been dogpiled on by the media long before the molestation accusations came around. The pet chimp, the cosmetic surgery, the lightening of his complexion, the Elephant Man skeleton thing, his relationship with Elizabeth Taylor. He was being called "Wacko Jacko" by tabloids 30-plus years ago. They've been trying ruin this man his whole career, so I've always been skeptical about accusations directed at him that he did something morally wrong, especially when there's been no credible evidence that he's some kind of monster.

EDIT #2: And to add to Edit #1 above, there's a reason MJ made this video (released in early 1989):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crbFmpezO4A

Last edited by Shadow1980 - on 15 March 2019

I knew he was guilty the moment he said he slept in a room alone with these boys without any cameras and behind closed doors. Even if he was "super naive"( which I think is BS), he still has lawyers and adults around him that could tell him that he needed to have cameras and whatnot in case he ever needed prove of his innocence. He obviously didnt because he knew it was wrong and fucked up, and he was fucking these kids.

Reminds of me of when I was 15 years old and I would go to my 17y/o cousin's house during summers, we would hook up, and at night would try anything we could to sleep in the same room with excuses like we wanted to play videogames together or whatnot. I remember 1 year her mom kinda started seeing what was going on and wouldnt let us sleep in the same room together anymore. I remember her mom always praising how close and friendly we were, well it was for a reason because we had a hidden relationship, its crazy that it took her years to realize it and only because we started making it too obvious after a while.



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I never thought it would be possible to fit so much bullshit in 4 hours. So much so that the director of the documentary cut out 45 minutes of the most obvious bullshit when the Jackson family and others rightfully called him out on it.

The Rageaholic addresses, questions, and debunks these allegations and claims better than I ever could.

What's sad is that his Part 1 video that he recorded in 2016 immediately questions and calls out everything "Leaving Neverland" brings forward. A video that came BEFORE, not AFTER, the documentary aired, puts it under heavy questioning and scrutiny. And that's not even getting into the 2005 Aquittal where Michael was cleared of all 14 counts pressed against. Resoundingly I might add. Or the fact that the FBI conducted their own investigation on these allegations and matters that lasted for over 10 years and found ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And the "evidence" that was presented in the 2005 trial included dated as far back as the 1993 allegations, which the parents filed a civil trial instead of a criminal one.

Parents of VGChartz, I have a question for you, if someone did all of these despicable, horrible things to your child that these people accuse Michael Jackson of doing, say it was your kid(s) that Michael molested, would you A) file a civil trial to get millions of dollars from him and call it day like the father of Jordan Chandler, the 1993 child in question, did? Or B) file a criminal trial, considering you have credible, legitimate evidence, to put him behind bars for the rest of his life or have him get the electric chair for what he did to your son(s) or daughter(s)? 

The only thing Michael was really guilty of was being way too naive, even stupid, for his own good and not realizing what a fully grown man such as himself, constantly and voluntarily hanging around and spending his free & personal time with children, would look like. Here, we have a man who did not have the average childhood like you and me and many other people. Whereas other people's childhoods was spent on playgrounds, swing-sets, jungle gyms, amusement parks, and parties. His was spent in recording studios, dancing studios, conducting interviews, filming TV sets, traveling, touring, and award shows. And that's not even including the possible physical abuse and torment he suffered from his father growing up.

He did not have the kind of childhood that you or I would think is ideal by any means. And that clearly effected him when he became an adult, it consumed him. Even when he went on to become the superstar, the Icon, the Legend, that he became - (King of Pop this, Greatest Entertainer of All-Time that) he always spent his adulthood trying to get back the childhood that he felt he lost. That he felt was taken away from him. That's why he bought an entire ranch and made his front yard into a mini-Disneyland amusement park. As such, the type of people that he tried to befriend and get close to the most, was children. Because they had what he didn't have and didn't get when he was a child, and he felt that they were the only ones who could give it to him. 

The problem with this: By this point, Michael was a full-fledged adult, with the mentality and psychology of a child. So, while he may not have seen anything wrong with having sleepovers with children in his bedroom. The average adult with the grown-up knowledge and mentality such as you and me obviously did. And the people around him, his handlers, should be held just as highly accountable, if not moreso, than Michael himself. Because even though Michael may not have been aware, the people around him like his manager, agent, legal team, family, etc. most certainly were. As a result, Michael unknowingly made himself openly vulnerable to people who could take advantage of his ignorance and child-like naivety to get everything they want out of him and his wealth and status as the biggest music star on the planet. That's what led to the 1993 allegations & settlement for $20 million, the 2003 allegations, and now this bogus, heaping pile of dog shit documentary. 

And it's not going to stop here. This won't be the last one. As long as Michael continues to be relevant. As long as he continues to be hailed and praised as the Icon and the Legend that he was, is, and always will be, there will always be another one just like Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck who will fabricate their own stories of abuse so that they can whatever money or benefits they want from Michael's estate. Don't be surprise if 30 years from now, we get a "Demons of Neverland" documentary from some guy in his 70's who claims Michael abused him and the points he makes are the exact same ones that Jordan Chandler's parents, Gavin Arviso's parents, Robson, and Safechuck each brought up. Points that have LOOOOONG since been disproven but the media keeps bringing them back because they are hell bent on bringing Michael down, and have been for over 35 years, for the sake of a profit. Because "Michael Jackson Molested Kids" sells 10x as many newspapers and magazines as "We Were Wrong: Sorry, Michael" 

Did Michael have his problems and issues? Yes.
Could he be called odd or weird, or "Wacko Jacko"? Yes.

Does that make him a pedophile? No!
Was he actually a pedophile? Not only does the verdict of the judicial court system, the investigation by the FBI, and all the evidence, or lackthereof, say No, but HELL NO!

The man has been dead for almost 10 years now! To the people who so adamantly believe he's guilty (You're wrong, by the way and there are a million and one different FACTUAL ways to prove it too), what do you want us to do? Raid his tomb, take out his casket, take out his corpse (which at this point is nothing more than rotting flesh and decaying, worm-riddled bones), slap the cuffs on it and throw it in a jail cell and make the other inmates around it suffer from its suffocating, disgusting stench?

HE DIDN'T DO IT!
He never did it!

Drop it, let it go, and for God's sake, let him Rest in Peace!

Last edited by PAOerfulone - on 14 March 2019

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I'm exactly 50/50 on the subject.

Before the documentary and doing any more research, I definitely thought he was just innocent and misunderstood. I tend not to be impressed by the arbitrary societal standard of "normal" that people are ridiculed for not following. Although yes, the documentary was very convincing, but documentaries are designed, filmed and edited to be one-sided and completely convincing. However, both of these guys apparently have a lot to gain from this, and maintained for decades he was innocent, up until they needed money and the Jackson estate wouldn't hire them. Seriously, the timing is pretty impeccable; they were up for some kind of job involving shows about MJ, they were rejected or it fell through; next thing you know they decide they were molested. Hmm...

But then taking into consideration the fact that all of the excuses people make for his... unusual lifestyle and behavior apparently doesn't apply to his siblings--all of whom seem to be low key and well-adjusted, despite growing up in the same fucked up situation as Michael. They were all deprived of childhoods, yet he was the only one who had a proclivity of being around specifically little boys. You never really saw girls or teenagers around him, which is odd.

Every time I look at either side, I start getting convinced in that direction. I honestly don't think there's really any way of knowing what's actually true. And no, the whole mind-reading mentality I see in this thread and elsewhere of saying, "Yeah of course he did it" or " I just know he's innocent!" doesn't work. What, are you claiming to be psychic? No one knows or can presume to have all the facts and know what took place. Take your certainty of his guilty/innocence and realize there are just as many people who "know" the opposite of the position you're taking.

That's why I find this whole thing fascinating. I don't really have a horse in this race and don't listen to his music, but from a psychological standpoint, it's just brilliant.

Last edited by aiwass - on 14 March 2019

*My signature from 2011 which I'm too lazy to change*

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PortisheadBiscuit said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

Theres no rational reason to believe MJ was anything other than a piece of shit pedophile after you see or read about the documentary, read what the FBI found in his houses in the early 90’s and 00’s and just by observing his fucking behavior back then. He wasn’t even trying to hide it.

The FBI found found nothing in 300 pages of documents on him. 

Apart from several books containing nude images of children particularly boys. Look it up. The books were however not deemed to be illegal. Sill quite quite revealing about the character in question. 



Xbox 360 and Xbox One

Gamertag:  GamertagOz70

I don't know would be the right answer. I'm not gonna waste my time knowing all the facts either, even though I love his music.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

3sexty said:
PortisheadBiscuit said:

The FBI found found nothing in 300 pages of documents on him. 

Apart from several books containing nude images of children particularly boys. Look it up. The books were however not deemed to be illegal. Sill quite quite revealing about the character in question. 

These were books commercially available to the public, not some underground creepy child porn. It'd be like calling someone a pedo because they have a copy of Nirvana's Nevermind album with the naked baby on the cover in their home. I suppose cupid is child porn as well? You also failed to mention things like Playboy and Penthouse were found in his home, no little boys found in those publications. 

At the end of the day, nothing the FBI found was admitted into evidence against Jackson. You want to believe he's guilty as sin and that's fine, but all the 'hard evidence' against MJ is all anecdotal and has been that way since 1993.