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Forums - General Discussion - "Leaving Neverland": Do you think Michael Jackson is Innocent?

 

Thriller and Invincible or Bad and Dangerous

Good guy, wrongly accused 55 51.89%
 
Talented Bad guy 28 26.42%
 
A little of both. 23 21.70%
 
Total:106
omarct on 17 March 2019
d21lewis said:

For as long as I can remember, I've gobbled up any MJ information I could find. He was like a rare unicorn. Yes, there's TONS and tons of video of him now but his actual appearances on TV were few, post Thriller. We'd go months if not years waiting for our next MJ fix. It was always a special and magical event when we finally saw him. We always were left hungry for just a little more.

With that said, there are a few things that we just decided to ignore. Things that I'm seeing with more mature eyes that are tainting my views of Michael. Some aren't even in the documentary.

-He DEMANDED that a kid be allowed to go with him on tour. I think it was during the time of Dangerous. He wanted to take this kid from his family and got mad when they refused. He threatened the family with his layers. This wasn't either of the two from the documentary, either.

-He somehow always attached himself to the "kid if the moment". From Emmanuel (Webster) Lewis to Macaulay Culkin. Whatever kids America was fascinated with, they were hanging with Michael.

-He never really had any public relationships or relationships at all. Just these weird obsessions with people like Brooke Shields, Elizabeth Taylor, or Diana Ross. His two weddings were just...weird.

-He had drug addictions. Just like a kid, right? He had gone to rehab many times and he was smart enough to "doctor shop" for the ones who'd give him what he wanted instead of the ones who would give him what he needed.

-He straight up lied about not knowing what "skin bleaching" was. He had the creams that would give him that effect. Yes, he did have vitaligo. He also lied about his surgeries. He claimed he only had two for breathing issues when there were actually over a dozen.

-We say "Poor Michael didn't have a childhood" but he had several siblings. Like 8 or something, off the top of my head. Some older and some younger. They grew up in the same household. Michael didn't go solo until he was in his teens. If Michael didn't have a childhood, they didn't either. None of them turned out like he did.

-I HAD a childhood. It only lasted a small amount of time. Michael wanted his childhood to last for DECADES. That's just greedy. And despite being a "child", he would make some really adult decisions like buying into Sony, the Beetles catalog, etc. S

-He had so many accusers. Maybe some had questionable motives but damn. Staff, family, "victims", security. All of them just wanted money after seeing the people before them fail time and again?

-Some of the things in the documentary require a truly creative and evil mind to even come up with. Safechuck even had a collection of rings, including a "wedding ring" that Michael gave him. Things like that, things like the hotel rooms, buying a home for his parents after court--there has to be a paper trail, right?

-He paid a rumored $20-$25 million to his accusers. That should have been a more than adequate amount to pay for a defense if he was innocent. Especially with the money he had at the time. Why did he cave? Did he think he could lose? What did they have on him? Even in the doc, they defended him saying that "proved it was just about the money".

-Michael's response to being accused was just like that of Gary Glitter and R. Kelly--a message to the public saying "They just want money! The truth will come out. I'm the victim!"

-Wade and Safechuck's alleged experience seems awfully familiar to that of the Netflix doc "Abducted In Plain Sight".

-According to his doctor (this may be false), Michael was chemically castrated at an early age to protect his voice. He couldn't do the things he's been accused of. But he sat right there and smiled when his wife said "We have sex. It's the best sex of my life!"

-Not 100% sure if it's true but I saw online that too much time has passed and neither man can get anything from the Jackson estate. Meanwhile the two are hated by MJ fans, Wade's father is dead (Michael related? Who knows?), Safechuck's mom has been virtually kicked out of the family for her part in all of this. This is winning? Yeah, they could make some money from all of this controversy. Books, etc.

My wife said it in a way that made sense. Michael made us fall in love with him when he was "normal". We loved him so much that when things got weird we just accepted it without question. Everyone was a fan. That's how he works. He probably did the same to those kids. Before they realized how weird things really were, they were already in deep.

I don't know. I've had a lot of time to think about it. I'm not keeping a closed mind on this one. I hate that he's not here to defend himself but his history is just sketchy. We're smarter these days than we used to be...but then we still have people who think the earth is flat.

You can present all the logical arguments you want, but these people will keep coming up with excuses. Their fanaticism has reached a level that makes Nintendo fans seem like nihilists. It doesnt take more than a few hour of research to know that MJ was sketchy child molester. I am not talking about any copy paste links stating "facts" like the ones some have used here, I am talking about watching the man himself say and do things on videos that would have any other man in jail. None the less, its good to know that there are at-least some people who can critically think, thats all that really matters after all since the piece of shit is already dead, we can only learn and try to stop these sort of thing from happening again.

Jesus to this day there are still people defending RKelly even though there is video proof of him pissing on a 15 year old girl. Any proof you have will not convince these individuals.



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Immersiveunreality on 17 March 2019
omarct said:
d21lewis said:

For as long as I can remember, I've gobbled up any MJ information I could find. He was like a rare unicorn. Yes, there's TONS and tons of video of him now but his actual appearances on TV were few, post Thriller. We'd go months if not years waiting for our next MJ fix. It was always a special and magical event when we finally saw him. We always were left hungry for just a little more.

With that said, there are a few things that we just decided to ignore. Things that I'm seeing with more mature eyes that are tainting my views of Michael. Some aren't even in the documentary.

-He DEMANDED that a kid be allowed to go with him on tour. I think it was during the time of Dangerous. He wanted to take this kid from his family and got mad when they refused. He threatened the family with his layers. This wasn't either of the two from the documentary, either.

-He somehow always attached himself to the "kid if the moment". From Emmanuel (Webster) Lewis to Macaulay Culkin. Whatever kids America was fascinated with, they were hanging with Michael.

-He never really had any public relationships or relationships at all. Just these weird obsessions with people like Brooke Shields, Elizabeth Taylor, or Diana Ross. His two weddings were just...weird.

-He had drug addictions. Just like a kid, right? He had gone to rehab many times and he was smart enough to "doctor shop" for the ones who'd give him what he wanted instead of the ones who would give him what he needed.

-He straight up lied about not knowing what "skin bleaching" was. He had the creams that would give him that effect. Yes, he did have vitaligo. He also lied about his surgeries. He claimed he only had two for breathing issues when there were actually over a dozen.

-We say "Poor Michael didn't have a childhood" but he had several siblings. Like 8 or something, off the top of my head. Some older and some younger. They grew up in the same household. Michael didn't go solo until he was in his teens. If Michael didn't have a childhood, they didn't either. None of them turned out like he did.

-I HAD a childhood. It only lasted a small amount of time. Michael wanted his childhood to last for DECADES. That's just greedy. And despite being a "child", he would make some really adult decisions like buying into Sony, the Beetles catalog, etc. S

-He had so many accusers. Maybe some had questionable motives but damn. Staff, family, "victims", security. All of them just wanted money after seeing the people before them fail time and again?

-Some of the things in the documentary require a truly creative and evil mind to even come up with. Safechuck even had a collection of rings, including a "wedding ring" that Michael gave him. Things like that, things like the hotel rooms, buying a home for his parents after court--there has to be a paper trail, right?

-He paid a rumored $20-$25 million to his accusers. That should have been a more than adequate amount to pay for a defense if he was innocent. Especially with the money he had at the time. Why did he cave? Did he think he could lose? What did they have on him? Even in the doc, they defended him saying that "proved it was just about the money".

-Michael's response to being accused was just like that of Gary Glitter and R. Kelly--a message to the public saying "They just want money! The truth will come out. I'm the victim!"

-Wade and Safechuck's alleged experience seems awfully familiar to that of the Netflix doc "Abducted In Plain Sight".

-According to his doctor (this may be false), Michael was chemically castrated at an early age to protect his voice. He couldn't do the things he's been accused of. But he sat right there and smiled when his wife said "We have sex. It's the best sex of my life!"

-Not 100% sure if it's true but I saw online that too much time has passed and neither man can get anything from the Jackson estate. Meanwhile the two are hated by MJ fans, Wade's father is dead (Michael related? Who knows?), Safechuck's mom has been virtually kicked out of the family for her part in all of this. This is winning? Yeah, they could make some money from all of this controversy. Books, etc.

My wife said it in a way that made sense. Michael made us fall in love with him when he was "normal". We loved him so much that when things got weird we just accepted it without question. Everyone was a fan. That's how he works. He probably did the same to those kids. Before they realized how weird things really were, they were already in deep.

I don't know. I've had a lot of time to think about it. I'm not keeping a closed mind on this one. I hate that he's not here to defend himself but his history is just sketchy. We're smarter these days than we used to be...but then we still have people who think the earth is flat.

You can present all the logical arguments you want, but these people will keep coming up with excuses. Their fanaticism has reached a level that makes Nintendo fans seem like nihilists. It doesnt take more than a few hour of research to know that MJ was sketchy child molester. I am not talking about any copy paste links stating "facts" like the ones some have used here, I am talking about watching the man himself say and do things on videos that would have any other man in jail. None the less, its good to know that there are at-least some people who can critically think, thats all that really matters after all since the piece of shit is already dead, we can only learn and try to stop these sort of thing from happening again.

Jesus to this day there are still people defending RKelly even though there is video proof of him pissing on a 15 year old girl. Any proof you have will not convince these individuals.

He indeed presents logical arguments that you lack,all that you can do is assume and accuse people so do not think even for one second that you are in the same boat as him thinkingwise.

Bolded: It is really awesome people can think critically indeed but do not think you give us an example of it with knitting fantasy between the facts.



Peh on 17 March 2019

Not guilty until proven otherwise.

There are way too many false accounts on this and people who are just doing that for money.



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omarct on 17 March 2019
Peh said:
Not guilty until proven otherwise.

There are way too many false accounts on this and people who are just doing that for money.

Really? Why dont you tell me of some famous child molesters who were wrongly accused? I am very interested to know who they are.



Mr.GameCrazy on 17 March 2019
PAOerfulone said:
omarct said:
I feel like if those boys were little girls nobody would doubt them.....

Some of the Bigger, more Obvious Contradictions: 2:26 - 3:33; 3:47 - 4:44; 5:31 - 8:04; 9:59 - 11:58; 12:06 - 17:33 ESPECIALLY 13:18 - 14:18 AND 14:29 - 15:41; 17:41 - 18:18, 19:01 - 23:32; 24:05 - 25:00; 25:55 - 26:55; 28:11 - The End. 


I did you the favor of time stamping the most particular and damning pieces of exposition and dis-credibility and picking and choosing which ones you want to view at your own time. But you're better off actually watching the entire thing from beginning to end, seeing as how I might as well have timestamped the whole thing, to have a much better and more solid understanding.

As he stated, FACTS don't give a FUCK about your feelings. 

People who actually do their proper research and look for the legitimate, concrete facts on the issue, instead of believe the claims and stories without a second thought, would call bullshit on those claims and stories no matter what gender they are.

 

People don't doubt them because they're boys. They doubt them because all logical, factual signs say they're full of shit. They have changed and contradicted their stories multiple times, and NONE of them make any sense when you actually do proper research and investigate the background information behind their claims.

Razorfist did a great job with his rebuttal videos imo.

Last edited by Mr.GameCrazy - on 17 March 2019

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Peh on 17 March 2019
omarct said:
Peh said:
Not guilty until proven otherwise.

There are way too many false accounts on this and people who are just doing that for money.

Really? Why dont you tell me of some famous child molesters who were wrongly accused? I am very interested to know who they are.

What do you like more? A red herring or a strawman?



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

DonFerrari on 17 March 2019
omarct said:
d21lewis said:

For as long as I can remember, I've gobbled up any MJ information I could find. He was like a rare unicorn. Yes, there's TONS and tons of video of him now but his actual appearances on TV were few, post Thriller. We'd go months if not years waiting for our next MJ fix. It was always a special and magical event when we finally saw him. We always were left hungry for just a little more.

With that said, there are a few things that we just decided to ignore. Things that I'm seeing with more mature eyes that are tainting my views of Michael. Some aren't even in the documentary.

-He DEMANDED that a kid be allowed to go with him on tour. I think it was during the time of Dangerous. He wanted to take this kid from his family and got mad when they refused. He threatened the family with his layers. This wasn't either of the two from the documentary, either.

-He somehow always attached himself to the "kid if the moment". From Emmanuel (Webster) Lewis to Macaulay Culkin. Whatever kids America was fascinated with, they were hanging with Michael.

-He never really had any public relationships or relationships at all. Just these weird obsessions with people like Brooke Shields, Elizabeth Taylor, or Diana Ross. His two weddings were just...weird.

-He had drug addictions. Just like a kid, right? He had gone to rehab many times and he was smart enough to "doctor shop" for the ones who'd give him what he wanted instead of the ones who would give him what he needed.

-He straight up lied about not knowing what "skin bleaching" was. He had the creams that would give him that effect. Yes, he did have vitaligo. He also lied about his surgeries. He claimed he only had two for breathing issues when there were actually over a dozen.

-We say "Poor Michael didn't have a childhood" but he had several siblings. Like 8 or something, off the top of my head. Some older and some younger. They grew up in the same household. Michael didn't go solo until he was in his teens. If Michael didn't have a childhood, they didn't either. None of them turned out like he did.

-I HAD a childhood. It only lasted a small amount of time. Michael wanted his childhood to last for DECADES. That's just greedy. And despite being a "child", he would make some really adult decisions like buying into Sony, the Beetles catalog, etc. S

-He had so many accusers. Maybe some had questionable motives but damn. Staff, family, "victims", security. All of them just wanted money after seeing the people before them fail time and again?

-Some of the things in the documentary require a truly creative and evil mind to even come up with. Safechuck even had a collection of rings, including a "wedding ring" that Michael gave him. Things like that, things like the hotel rooms, buying a home for his parents after court--there has to be a paper trail, right?

-He paid a rumored $20-$25 million to his accusers. That should have been a more than adequate amount to pay for a defense if he was innocent. Especially with the money he had at the time. Why did he cave? Did he think he could lose? What did they have on him? Even in the doc, they defended him saying that "proved it was just about the money".

-Michael's response to being accused was just like that of Gary Glitter and R. Kelly--a message to the public saying "They just want money! The truth will come out. I'm the victim!"

-Wade and Safechuck's alleged experience seems awfully familiar to that of the Netflix doc "Abducted In Plain Sight".

-According to his doctor (this may be false), Michael was chemically castrated at an early age to protect his voice. He couldn't do the things he's been accused of. But he sat right there and smiled when his wife said "We have sex. It's the best sex of my life!"

-Not 100% sure if it's true but I saw online that too much time has passed and neither man can get anything from the Jackson estate. Meanwhile the two are hated by MJ fans, Wade's father is dead (Michael related? Who knows?), Safechuck's mom has been virtually kicked out of the family for her part in all of this. This is winning? Yeah, they could make some money from all of this controversy. Books, etc.

My wife said it in a way that made sense. Michael made us fall in love with him when he was "normal". We loved him so much that when things got weird we just accepted it without question. Everyone was a fan. That's how he works. He probably did the same to those kids. Before they realized how weird things really were, they were already in deep.

I don't know. I've had a lot of time to think about it. I'm not keeping a closed mind on this one. I hate that he's not here to defend himself but his history is just sketchy. We're smarter these days than we used to be...but then we still have people who think the earth is flat.

You can present all the logical arguments you want, but these people will keep coming up with excuses. Their fanaticism has reached a level that makes Nintendo fans seem like nihilists. It doesnt take more than a few hour of research to know that MJ was sketchy child molester. I am not talking about any copy paste links stating "facts" like the ones some have used here, I am talking about watching the man himself say and do things on videos that would have any other man in jail. None the less, its good to know that there are at-least some people who can critically think, thats all that really matters after all since the piece of shit is already dead, we can only learn and try to stop these sort of thing from happening again.

Jesus to this day there are still people defending RKelly even though there is video proof of him pissing on a 15 year old girl. Any proof you have will not convince these individuals.

You really should work as a FBI investigator or perhaps prosecutor, so many useless FBI agents, prosecutors and judge to allow someone that is so guilty and easily proven by you out with a not guilty right?



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Arkaign on 17 March 2019

I always thought MJ was a weird dude, and especially when growing up, didn't really enjoy his music (to be fair, I hated pop of all types and still mostly do, have always liked far darker styles that confronted issues of suffering, strife, anger, suicide, hate, loss, despair.

When the allegations first started coming up, I kind of casually assumed they must be true. It was only after looking into just how shady much of that turned out to be that I came around to the idea that he was more likely to be unfairly accused for various reasons. Things like the Chandler dad, I mean holy crap. He used a potentially lethal drug cocktail on his young son during a dental session to try to implant the evidence, was caught on tape talking about extorting MJ, was further caught on tape saying he didn't care what happened to his son, just "That's irrelevant to me ... It will be a massacre if I don't get what I want." I mean holy crap.

And then the 'he had kids in his bedroom'. Ehh, sort of not really? His 'bedroom' for the Neverland sleepovers often included parents, and consisted of a gymnasium like area with bunk beds, trampolines, etc.

I've seen credible commentary that basically shows MJ to be asexual. He certainly didn't seem to be interested in either females or males in particular, despite all of the opportunity in the world as a megastar.

He definitely seemed to continually spiral downwards from the early 1980s onward though, irrespective of his career arc, he became more and more isolated, physically wasted, and overmedicated right to the end. Stress and mental deterioration really seemed to take their toll.

Any credible evidence that he harmed anyone would be enough to change my mind, I never knew the guy and never listened to the music then or now, but it just all seems super shady overall. The worst the guy seems to be provably guilty of is being really strange, and really rich.



Machiavellian on 17 March 2019

In the first trial, was there any doubt that Michael committed any sexual act against that child. From my memory we can say no. Just the father example itself was enough to throw that out. Now with this documentary, the 2 that are accusing Michael. The tried and failed miserably to sue the estate. Next they get this gig to do a documentary that has netted them how many millions, especially when they were in need of cash.

There is a lot already to shed a lot of doubt on their account.



PwerlvlAmy on 17 March 2019

I've noticed several people in this thread lately have been getting a little heated in their exchanges. Please keep disagreements and conversations with each other civil. Thank you :)



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