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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Was the Switch designed to Last?

Pemalite said:

Define "most". - Because there are 10's of Millions of PC gamers, Xbox One X owners and Playstation 4 Pro gamers that would probably disagree.

I am not denying a large percentage of gamers don't give a shit about visuals, I am just not willing to brush off those who don't fit into that category.

The base PS4 and Xbox One regularly outsell the Pro and X. Partly because they're less expensive, but also because a lot of people simply aren't interested in a spending more for what they view as, only a marginal upgrade. 



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TheMisterManGuy said:
Pemalite said:

Define "most". - Because there are 10's of Millions of PC gamers, Xbox One X owners and Playstation 4 Pro gamers that would probably disagree.

I am not denying a large percentage of gamers don't give a shit about visuals, I am just not willing to brush off those who don't fit into that category.

The base PS4 and Xbox One regularly outsell the Pro and X. Partly because they're less expensive, but also because a lot of people simply aren't interested in a spending more for what they view as, only a marginal upgrade. 

And yet... 10's of Millions of gamers own the Xbox One X and Playstation 4 Pro and/or a high-end PC.

Success is all relative remember... Nintendo would have probably loved the WiiU to have sales equivalent to both of those consoles.

The Xbox One and Playstation 4 originally sold on the premise of better graphics over their predecessors, the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360. - If power was irrelevant, then the 8th gen Microsoft and Sony consoles probably didn't need to happen, right? The biggest improvement they offer is better graphics remember.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

40% under clocked is not slightly, it's massive.



Pemalite said: 

The Xbox One and Playstation 4 originally sold on the premise of better graphics over their predecessors, the Playstation 3 and Xbox 360. - If power was irrelevant, then the 8th gen Microsoft and Sony consoles probably didn't need to happen, right? The biggest improvement they offer is better graphics remember.

The PS4 and Xbox One originally had the novelty of being a new console generation to fall back on, especially since the vast majority of their early titles were cross-gen games, so a lot of their initial success was due to consumers wanting something new. The continued success of the PS4 for example is all due to a regular lineup of hit titles that help sell consoles, not really because of power, because again, the base versions of these platforms regularly outsell the Pro versions. 

Technology can always improve, and there will always be an audience of people who want better graphics. But my point isn't that technology shouldn't improve. Rather, the rise of diminishing returns means having the a powerful console means less and less overtime. Aside from ambitious open world or action games, very few genres need that much power to look or play well. We're at a point where outside of the AAA circle, all three current consoles have more than enough for most developers. I think that improvements in graphics and AAA games that leverage new generations are still important. But a lot less so these days, again, due to diminishing returns. Just look at this generation alone. Yeah, it's a nice improvement from last generation, but it's not nearly as massive as the leap from PS1 to PS2 was, or Xbox to Xbox 360, It's more of a solid Bunny hop than a major leap. The main improvements this gen have more to due with having more RAM to work with, and an Architecture that isn't outdated or overly complex garbage, along with better development tools and engine support. 



TheMisterManGuy said:

The PS4 and Xbox One originally had the novelty of being a new console generation to fall back on, especially since the vast majority of their early titles were cross-gen games, so a lot of their initial success was due to consumers wanting something new.

And they promoted power. Hence the Resolution Gate debacle of the Xbox One.

TheMisterManGuy said:

The continued success of the PS4 for example is all due to a regular lineup of hit titles that help sell consoles, not really because of power, because again, the base versions of these platforms regularly outsell the Pro versions. 

The Playstation 4's original success was partly because of power. Remember... 50% more power, $100 cheaper. It was a no brainer.
The Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X has brought the power bar upwards and have sold millions of consoles... Were they ever expected to beat the base consoles? Not likely.

TheMisterManGuy said:

Technology can always improve, and there will always be an audience of people who want better graphics. But my point isn't that technology shouldn't improve. Rather, the rise of diminishing returns means having the a powerful console means less and less overtime.

I am of a different opinion. We aren't over the whole uncanny valley yet, there is so much untapped potential in moving forwards with graphics.. But I am also a tech enthusiast.

TheMisterManGuy said:

 Aside from ambitious open world or action games, very few genres need that much power to look or play well. We're at a point where outside of the AAA circle, all three current consoles have more than enough for most developers. I think that improvements in graphics and AAA games that leverage new generations are still important. But a lot less so these days, again, due to diminishing returns. Just look at this generation alone. Yeah, it's a nice improvement from last generation, but it's not nearly as massive as the leap from PS1 to PS2 was, or Xbox to Xbox 360, It's more of a solid Bunny hop than a major leap. The main improvements this gen have more to due with having more RAM to work with, and an Architecture that isn't outdated or overly complex garbage, along with better development tools and engine support.

You should probably take a look at the Early 2005 Xbox 360 games and compare them to Xbox One titles today, the difference is actually pretty massive, especially in regards to geometric and lighting complexity.

At the end of the day though... Each new console generation brings with it a slew of excitement at the possibility of more power, more performance and better graphics for all... And that resonates with consumers which have made the Xbox One and Playstation 4 a success. - Does that mean all consumers care for such things? Heck no.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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zorg1000 said:
JRPGfan said:

PS5 & XB1 comes in 2020, at that point Switch probably stops getting multiplat 3rd party support.

You could be right, nintendo simply goes "we dont care anymore about it, we re riding this gen out without any support"
Hopefully by then, they have sold so many units that devs will want to keep makeing games for it reguardless.

I just assume by then (2021) nintendo will have launched a new console instead, rideing the coat tails of 3rd party multplats from the PS5/XB2.
People say nintendo switch is 9th gen, and their gen ahead.... it see it as them being behinde the others, and assume they would want to try and stick to the others atleast.

AAA support=/=3rd party support.

Look at the 3rd party support on Switch. It's mostly indies, Japanese games, previous gen ports/remasters, kid/family titles, retro compilations, mid sized free-to-play games.

The type of games you are talking about already dont come to Switch.

Yes AAA support = 3rd party.

Because alot of those indie games could be run on a toaster if needed.
Hell they could have just kept the Wii or Wii U then, those systems are plenty powerfull enough for small 2D indie games.

So I honestly dont agree with this.
AAA support is 3rd party support, and their also usually big sellers, while alot of those 2D small indie games barely sell anything (I know there are exceptions).


But there have been "some" AAA support for the Switch so far, like Wolften Stein, Doom ect..... that stops once the PS5 & XB2 launchs imo.
Switch might still get old PS4/XB1 ports but I assume at that point, you ll also see alot less of those types happend.

Old Retro collections belong with the 2D low budget indie games, those will probably keep coming.



Pemalite said:

And they promoted power. Hence the Resolution Gate debacle of the Xbox One.

The Playstation 4's original success was partly because of power. Remember... 50% more power, $100 cheaper. It was a no brainer.
The Playstation 4 Pro and Xbox One X has brought the power bar upwards and have sold millions of consoles... Were they ever expected to beat the base consoles? Not likely.

I am of a different opinion. We aren't over the whole uncanny valley yet, there is so much untapped potential in moving forwards with graphics.. But I am also a tech enthusiast.

You should probably take a look at the Early 2005 Xbox 360 games and compare them to Xbox One titles today, the difference is actually pretty massive, especially in regards to geometric and lighting complexity.

At the end of the day though... Each new console generation brings with it a slew of excitement at the possibility of more power, more performance and better graphics for all... And that resonates with consumers which have made the Xbox One and Playstation 4 a success. - Does that mean all consumers care for such things? Heck no.

Sure, they promoted more power. But they largely sold because it was a new generation. PS4 also got a head-start thanks to Sony Capitalizing on Microsoft's draconian proposals and Nintendo's incompetence. Sony made a lot of smart decisions with the PS4, but let's be honest, their current leadership was practically given to them on a silver platter. Like I said, there is an audience for the Pro and X don't get me wrong, but it's not one big enough to replace the already perfectly fine base consoles for most consumers.

And Like I mentioned, there's always room for improvement regarding graphics technology and power, but the differences are becoming less substantial going into each new generation, and while you're correct that early Xbox 360 games look night and day compared to the Xbox One, the differences start becoming less apparent the further you go into the generation. Many late-gen PS3 and 360 games don't look that much worse than current gen games, even 5 years into 8th generation. A lot of PS3 and 360 games from about 2009 onward can still look good on current gen hardware with a few improvements. It's a big reason why the PS3 and 360 lasted so long in terms of support, and its also a big reason why publishers still keep re-releasing games from that era.

7th generation was the point where older graphics started becoming good enough for a lot of people, and if you think that generation lasted too long, current generation is likely to last even longer. Next gen consoles always bring better graphics and technology, and I'd be lying if I said those still aren't exciting because its always good to see ambitious game developers show that off. But we now at a point where consumers and developers no longer need to shuffle over to the next generation immediately as games on older or less powerful hardware are still perfectly playable. I again point to the PS3 and 360 where even in 2015, those consoles were still regularly receiving great AAA and indie games, and while everyone fully moved on by the following year, they're still getting annual Sports games and just dance until probably next year. Current generation will be even longer lasting since all the consoles are incredibly easy to develop for now that they'll continue to get a lot of great games until there's no longer a market for them. 



JRPGfan said:

Yes AAA support = 3rd party.

Because alot of those indie games could be run on a toaster if needed.
Hell they could have just kept the Wii or Wii U then, those systems are plenty powerfull enough for small 2D indie games.

So I honestly dont agree with this.
AAA support is 3rd party support, and their also usually big sellers, while alot of those 2D small indie games barely sell anything (I know there are exceptions).


But there have been "some" AAA support for the Switch so far, like Wolften Stein, Doom ect..... that stops once the PS5 & XB2 launchs imo.
Switch might still get old PS4/XB1 ports but I assume at that point, you ll also see alot less of those types happend.

Old Retro collections belong with the 2D low budget indie games, those will probably keep coming.

But AAA games are also taking longer to make due to ever increasing audience expectations and hardware. We're reaching a point where your average AAA third party title is pushing 4 years to develop, or if its an annual franchise, needs at least 800 people working on it. It was obvious the Switch really wasn't going to get very many of those games due to inherent limitations of mobile technology. But everything outside of that is fair game from indies, to popular service titles, to mid-budget games, and other less demanding games for it like exclusives and such. Just because it isn't getting Cyberpunk 2077, doesn't mean it doesn't have good third party support. 



TheMisterManGuy said:
JRPGfan said:

Yes AAA support = 3rd party.

Because alot of those indie games could be run on a toaster if needed.
Hell they could have just kept the Wii or Wii U then, those systems are plenty powerfull enough for small 2D indie games.

So I honestly dont agree with this.
AAA support is 3rd party support, and their also usually big sellers, while alot of those 2D small indie games barely sell anything (I know there are exceptions).


But there have been "some" AAA support for the Switch so far, like Wolften Stein, Doom ect..... that stops once the PS5 & XB2 launchs imo.
Switch might still get old PS4/XB1 ports but I assume at that point, you ll also see alot less of those types happend.

Old Retro collections belong with the 2D low budget indie games, those will probably keep coming.

But AAA games are also taking longer to make due to ever increasing audience expectations and hardware. We're reaching a point where your average AAA third party title is pushing 4 years to develop, or if its an annual franchise, needs at least 800 people working on it. It was obvious the Switch really wasn't going to get very many of those games due to inherent limitations of mobile technology. But everything outside of that is fair game from indies, to popular service titles, to mid-budget games, and other less demanding games for it like exclusives and such. Just because it isn't getting Cyberpunk 2077, doesn't mean it doesn't have good third party support. 

Alot of people disagree with that, and thus either have a differnt system, or buy multiple systems.

Getting these AAA games, to alot of people is just as important to them,
as being able to buy a nintendo system and have nintendos games on that system.



JRPGfan said:
TheMisterManGuy said:

But AAA games are also taking longer to make due to ever increasing audience expectations and hardware. We're reaching a point where your average AAA third party title is pushing 4 years to develop, or if its an annual franchise, needs at least 800 people working on it. It was obvious the Switch really wasn't going to get very many of those games due to inherent limitations of mobile technology. But everything outside of that is fair game from indies, to popular service titles, to mid-budget games, and other less demanding games for it like exclusives and such. Just because it isn't getting Cyberpunk 2077, doesn't mean it doesn't have good third party support. 

Alot of people disagree with that, and thus either have a differnt system, or buy multiple systems.

Getting these AAA games, to alot of people is just as important to them,
as being able to buy a nintendo system and have nintendos games on that system.

If you bough a Switch to play AAA games it obviously couldn't run, then you bought the wrong console. Don't get mad at Nintendo when a 6 in. tablet can't a lot of demanding games due to the limitations of mobile processors. Nintendo has once again shown they're not interest in competing in the same arena as Sony and Microsoft, and would rather serve a market hole than compete in an already cut-throat space. Been that way since 2006, so I'm not sure way people expected any different.

That's not to say the Switch won't get any AAA games or that third parties won't bother with it. But being the premiere platform for all of the AAA games was never its intended purpose. Even if you're not getting all the newest Rockstar or Bethesda games, you'll still get ports of games you missed out on last generation, games that don't require much processing power, and even exclusives like Octopath Traveler. Either way, the Switch isn't exactly starving for content like the Wii U was.