By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

EricHiggin said:

You do see the problem here right? A religious person can use that right back against you. 'I will accept evidence in scientific form, but if it doesn't conform to the biblical method, it will be discarded'. Do you not see the problem with the ONE and ONLY viewpoint from both sides?

Then religion doesn't need to prove itself. Religion is based on the spiritual world, which is also somewhat tied to the natural world.

I don't know if this is a serious challenge or you're making a joke here...but...

The reason the scientific method is considered trustworthy is because of its predictive power. While science doesn't produce truths, its approximations and models are effectively considered facts as a result of this.

Your comparison to a dusty old collection of documents written by ignorant fools by today's standards does not hold a candle to this process.

Now if the Bible or other religious text had some ability to predict the future by warning us about COVID 19 on a certain date in a certain location that would surely be something.

Critical thinking is seriously lacking in the religious community, but it's not that religious folks are incapable of thinking critically. There are countless critical thinkers who are religious - no, it's the blind spot that religion produces that is most troublesome.

The low quality OP probably should have resulted in a thread closure in my opinion. It was clear from the beginning that this wasn't a discussion, but an opportunity to proselytize. You're not interested in learning at all are you?



Around the Network
EricHiggin said:

So, religion, for a very very long time now, is mostly responsible for the worlds problems because it doesn't care for opposing beliefs, but not quite entirely, as some do good with it here and there and will continue to.

Yet, science, for a while, has done a fair amount of good, but doesn't care at all what happens with it's findings, even if it eventually, even if accidentally, and non religiously, leads to the end of the human race.

This is why religion is dumb and should be discarded, while science is the one and only logical path forward?

Religion is partly responsible for the worlds problems, it cannot be blamed for everything as not everything is caused by religious contention.

Science is just the method used to explain the natural world, it doesn't care if it offends you, it doesn't care if it comes into conflict with your religious indoctrination... And never in human history has science ever been used as the sole excuse to defend your country or go to war with another country... Same cannot be said for religion.

Science has proven to give us what we can regard as the truth... And on a damn regular basis. - Religion has not... And religion has had thousands of years to do so.

Simple fact is, Science has credibility... Where-as your religion is nothing but a fairy-tale set in a fictional universe so people can feel good about themselves... In short it's a joke and an insult to any free-thinking individual.

Besides... Everyone is born Atheist, it's only later do they get indoctrinated into various religions and cults, Atheism is the default, natural position.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

JWeinCom said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Hehe, like a priest would say. 

Ontopic: I do know some good people that are Christian but most of them kinda worry for what happens to me after i die,part of me wants to be kinda offended by it,another feels pity for them and the last part is semi gratefull that they care for me.

They were likely indoctrinated into their current beliefs.  They've been trained to be afraid of the consequences of them not believing for themselves, so it's natural that will spill over.  I wouldn't be offended, but if they go about "caring" in a way that is toxic to you, I'd cut them off.

Sometimes the question ''is this offensive?'' pops up in my head but i never let myself be offended by it,i just have a doubt on how to feel at that moment.

Bolded: Yes most have been indoctrinated from childhood and they themselves try to pass it on to their own children although that modern western children aren't that open for indoctrination anymore because we have so much other things that can influence us here,we are not isolated to our families and church.



OhNoYouDont said:
EricHiggin said:

You do see the problem here right? A religious person can use that right back against you. 'I will accept evidence in scientific form, but if it doesn't conform to the biblical method, it will be discarded'. Do you not see the problem with the ONE and ONLY viewpoint from both sides?

Then religion doesn't need to prove itself. Religion is based on the spiritual world, which is also somewhat tied to the natural world.

I don't know if this is a serious challenge or you're making a joke here...but...

The reason the scientific method is considered trustworthy is because of its predictive power. While science doesn't produce truths, its approximations and models are effectively considered facts as a result of this.

Your comparison to a dusty old collection of documents written by ignorant fools by today's standards does not hold a candle to this process.

Now if the Bible or other religious text had some ability to predict the future by warning us about COVID 19 on a certain date in a certain location that would surely be something.

Critical thinking is seriously lacking in the religious community, but it's not that religious folks are incapable of thinking critically. There are countless critical thinkers who are religious - no, it's the blind spot that religion produces that is most troublesome.

The low quality OP probably should have resulted in a thread closure in my opinion. It was clear from the beginning that this wasn't a discussion, but an opportunity to proselytize. You're not interested in learning at all are you?

Did science precisely predict this Covid outbreak? Has is saved us all from it since?

You're too focused on the religion and science, when the point here was the free individual that's accepting or denying what those offer.

You have some who are 100% all in on religion, which then goes against science, while you also have some who are 100% all in on science, which goes against religion.

If certain religion and it's one and only God's teachings aren't useful, then why should science and it's "God particle" be the one and only that's useful?

One and only one being useful and all others being discarded is Nazi type thinking, no matter the subject, and look what that type of thinking led to. 

Like what was said before, what's important is improving where possible when failures occur.



Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

So, religion, for a very very long time now, is mostly responsible for the worlds problems because it doesn't care for opposing beliefs, but not quite entirely, as some do good with it here and there and will continue to.

Yet, science, for a while, has done a fair amount of good, but doesn't care at all what happens with it's findings, even if it eventually, even if accidentally, and non religiously, leads to the end of the human race.

This is why religion is dumb and should be discarded, while science is the one and only logical path forward?

Religion is partly responsible for the worlds problems, it cannot be blamed for everything as not everything is caused by religious contention.

Science is just the method used to explain the natural world, it doesn't care if it offends you, it doesn't care if it comes into conflict with your religious indoctrination... And never in human history has science ever been used as the sole excuse to defend your country or go to war with another country... Same cannot be said for religion.

Science has proven to give us what we can regard as the truth... And on a damn regular basis. - Religion has not... And religion has had thousands of years to do so.

Simple fact is, Science has credibility... Where-as your religion is nothing but a fairy-tale set in a fictional universe so people can feel good about themselves... In short it's a joke and an insult to any free-thinking individual.

Besides... Everyone is born Atheist, it's only later do they get indoctrinated into various religions and cults, Atheism is the default, natural position.

Agree. Both religion and science have caused significant problems at times.

Science hasn't been the sole reason no, but science also hasn't been around as long. Assuming science stomps out religion eventually, indirectly, what about wars that happen then? What will be to blame? There's also the smaller 'battles' fought everyday between individuals, like in court, over things brought about by science, and not religion. When people fight over things like toilet paper, due to an outbreak, without a cure, who's fault is that? Is the MSM next to go?

Without religion ever existing, would things be better or worse now? Does anyone know the answer to that? Is there an answer? Science has done more good than harm, so far, but so has religion, so far. Both can be improved.

Science is based on how the physical universe functions. Religion is based on the spirituality behind it. It's not comparing apples to apples. Do you also think movies, tv shows, books, etc, that are fictional, are a joke and an insult to a free thinking individual?

Everyone is also born selfish and greedy. If kids weren't 'indoctrinated' in some structured manner, the world would be absolute chaos compared to what we have now. The strong would absolutely cripple the weak. Is that natural default a better world to live in?



Around the Network
Immersiveunreality said:
JWeinCom said:

They were likely indoctrinated into their current beliefs.  They've been trained to be afraid of the consequences of them not believing for themselves, so it's natural that will spill over.  I wouldn't be offended, but if they go about "caring" in a way that is toxic to you, I'd cut them off.

Sometimes the question ''is this offensive?'' pops up in my head but i never let myself be offended by it,i just have a doubt on how to feel at that moment.

Bolded: Yes most have been indoctrinated from childhood and they themselves try to pass it on to their own children although that modern western children aren't that open for indoctrination anymore because we have so much other things that can influence us here,we are not isolated to our families and church.

Where do you live if I may ask?  The internet and other forms of communication are indeed powerful tools to fight against indoctrination... but I don't think it could compete with the social pressures that come at one from a very young age, especially in communities where those who don't believe might literally be ostracized.



JWeinCom said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Sometimes the question ''is this offensive?'' pops up in my head but i never let myself be offended by it,i just have a doubt on how to feel at that moment.

Bolded: Yes most have been indoctrinated from childhood and they themselves try to pass it on to their own children although that modern western children aren't that open for indoctrination anymore because we have so much other things that can influence us here,we are not isolated to our families and church.

Where do you live if I may ask?  The internet and other forms of communication are indeed powerful tools to fight against indoctrination... but I don't think it could compete with the social pressures that come at one from a very young age, especially in communities where those who don't believe might literally be ostracized.

Live in Netherlands now but grown up in Belgium,Netherlands has the bigger amount of christians but both of these countries have broken down those social pressures that supports indoctrination by a lot and that trend you see all across Europe,not at the same measures but still progressive.Indoctrination still exists and without goverment involvement it will be a stubborn practice to die out completely.

Witnesses of Jehova are still some weird cultlike community here,always used to come one of two of them at my door every two weeks to try to talk me into their group of people and i always welcomed one of those in my house to have a chat just because i find it interesting to know how those people are.

But after i started noticing the empty eyes combined with a not fitting smile it also started to scare me,it was like i was talking to a puppet.



For our sins. For the world to see how much he loves them, and to be remembered and studied for the life he lived, what he preached and the model to be for all. He pretty much laid the foundation for the perfect life. people want to think it's just about accepting him so you can be saved after life, and avoiding hell. I tend to think he wanted to save us all here on earth, spiritually and to have paradise here. Imagine if everyone followed his words, how better life on earth would be for all.



Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

So, religion, for a very very long time now, is mostly responsible for the worlds problems because it doesn't care for opposing beliefs, but not quite entirely, as some do good with it here and there and will continue to.

Yet, science, for a while, has done a fair amount of good, but doesn't care at all what happens with it's findings, even if it eventually, even if accidentally, and non religiously, leads to the end of the human race.

This is why religion is dumb and should be discarded, while science is the one and only logical path forward?

Religion is partly responsible for the worlds problems, it cannot be blamed for everything as not everything is caused by religious contention.

Science is just the method used to explain the natural world, it doesn't care if it offends you, it doesn't care if it comes into conflict with your religious indoctrination... And never in human history has science ever been used as the sole excuse to defend your country or go to war with another country... Same cannot be said for religion.

Science has proven to give us what we can regard as the truth... And on a damn regular basis. - Religion has not... And religion has had thousands of years to do so.

Simple fact is, Science has credibility... Where-as your religion is nothing but a fairy-tale set in a fictional universe so people can feel good about themselves... In short it's a joke and an insult to any free-thinking individual.

Besides... Everyone is born Atheist, it's only later do they get indoctrinated into various religions and cults, Atheism is the default, natural position.

for what problems exactly is 'religion' responsible? and for which war was 'religion' the sole excuse for war? 'religion' has never been the sole excuse, there is no such thing, the excuse was always fear, control, power and money!! religion was used to impose fanaticism on believers

also 'religion' is too general, which religion? there are huge differences between Christianity and Islam, 'do not murder' is a basic commandment in Christian scripts, but Islam permits the murder of non-believers that refuse to believe in Islam

Science is a discovery and goes just as far as the discoverer's capability, it will reveal nothing that goes beyond the human, therefore any comparison with religion is irrelevant, I major in science and being a Christian, there is no scientific discovery that disproves Christianity thus far

some are born atheist, some have the inner feel that there is something bigger out there, therefore the countless ancient gods invented in the past, originating form the luck of scientific knowledge yes but also the inner feel there is something bigger than human

'Science has credibility... Where-as your religion is nothing' hell yeah, the classic modern scientific showcase obsession against religion... the same science that's causing the climatic change that could even lead to extinction, the same science that created cancer, nuclear and atomic bombs that can kill millions with the press of a button, the mass murder weapons used in World Wars that had nothing to do with religion but killed so much more than science can save

lastly, we only have signs like Jesus existence and teachings - there are even miracle testimonies by modern monks, if there was a clear cut proof everyone would believe regardless of his true intentions, there can be no proof, think of it as trying to explain what each colour looks like to a born-blind person, he has never seen colour and never will, he cannot even imagine what red looks like no matter how hard you can try to explain it, cause it is outside of his reality, just like god is outside our reality, Christianity accepts just that, that we can never understand god apart from a few signs revealed to us

people stick too much on the supernatural and afterlife but it's not even worth thinking too much about - except the relief/hope that good-loved people are in a better place - I rather stick to how Christianity applies in real life and is proved to be great for the happiness and well being of Christian believers, as it should

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/religion-happy-atheism-psychology-faith-belief-emotion-mental-health-christianity-a8766376.html?fbclid=IwAR2WmsuBj2mePLINOEO2nSuEC6VyyaOZq6gJ5ZMzLPoinjIpYEtfNrMmB1w



don't mind my username, that was more than 10 years ago, I'm a different person now, amazing how people change ^_^

EricHiggin said:

Science hasn't been the sole reason no, but science also hasn't been around as long.

Say what?
Science has existed before modern man, while we were still in caves and discovered primitive tools and fire, before we could form coherent sentences and speech, to even comprehend any religious doctrine.

That pegs it to about 1,000,000 years or more. Minimum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans

The Christian Religion? (Which is written on paper... A scientific invention...) was 6,000 years ago.

HMMM. Science > Religion.

The Aboriginals of Australia have existed for about 50,000-125,000 years and are genuinely an ancient civilization... It makes your Religion seem new by comparison... Almost like it was invented?
https://www.oldest.org/culture/civilizations/

EricHiggin said:

Without religion ever existing, would things be better or worse now? Does anyone know the answer to that? Is there an answer? Science has done more good than harm, so far, but so has religion, so far. Both can be improved.

Better without religion.

We probably wouldn't have had the crusades that wiped out millions.

We probably wouldn't have burned witches at the stake.

We probably wouldn't have attacked the LGBTQI community for thousands if years.

And we wouldn't have science deniers. - Flat Earthers will often reference the Bible to justify their flat-earth beliefs... Others use the Bible to deny evolution and basic geological factoids.

We wouldn't have terrorists who use Religion to kill people today.

So you can bet I stand by the belief we would be better off without religion.

EricHiggin said:

Science is based on how the physical universe functions. Religion is based on the spirituality behind it. It's not comparing apples to apples. Do you also think movies, tv shows, books, etc, that are fictional, are a joke and an insult to a free thinking individual?

There is no evidence that any of the spiritual hocus-pocus exists... So religion being based on that is irrelevant.

Movies, TV Shows, Books etc' that are fictional are ADVERTISED and KNOWN to be fictional... People aren't trying to pass something off like Independence Day as something that actually occurred in human history like Religion.
So no... They aren't a joke to a free thinking individual.

EricHiggin said:

Everyone is also born selfish and greedy. If kids weren't 'indoctrinated' in some structured manner, the world would be absolute chaos compared to what we have now. The strong would absolutely cripple the weak. Is that natural default a better world to live in?

I disagree that everyone is born selfish and greedy.

Doesn't make indoctrination right.

My position is... That religion is a joke... And should be totally shut down from top to bottom until they can prove their assertions.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

for what problems exactly is 'religion' responsible? and for which war was 'religion' the sole excuse for war? 'religion' has never been the sole excuse, there is no such thing, the excuse was always fear, control, power and money!!

Of course fear, control, power and money were the drivers.

Christianity pretty much has a "storefront" in every single town, in every single suburb, in every single city, in every single state, in every single country on every single continent of Planet Earth.

They then have individuals walking around every sunday asking for donations/money.

They have massive influence in our political structure across the planet, even the educational systems.

Christianity uses the fear of death and torture to indoctrinate people into it's religion.

As for religious wars... Here is some reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades


dark_gh0st_b0y said:


also 'religion' is too general, which religion? there are huge differences between Christianity and Islam, 'do not murder' is a basic commandment in Christian scripts, but Islam permits the murder of non-believers that refuse to believe in Islam

I have provided plenty of examples prior in this thread where Christianity and Islam are not to dissimilar.

Islam is based upon the Bibles Old-Testament teachings... In that, both religions are absolutely similar... And before you say "That is old testament". - I shouldn't need to remind you that there are plenty of Christian denominations that stand by the old testament 100%.

Nor should I need to remind you of New Testament scripture that points to the Old Testament as still being binding.

In-fact... The Bible is a horrific and evil book from start to finish.
Have a read: https://www.evilbible.com/

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

Science is a discovery and goes just as far as the discoverer's capability, it will reveal nothing that goes beyond the human, therefore any comparison with religion is irrelevant, I major in science and being a Christian, there is no scientific discovery that disproves Christianity thus far

some are born atheist, some have the inner feel that there is something bigger out there, therefore the countless ancient gods invented in the past, originating form the luck of scientific knowledge yes but also the inner feel there is something bigger than human

False. And an apologetic perspective.

Science pretty much refutes the ENTIRE genesis account.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

some are born atheist, some have the inner feel that there is something bigger out there, therefore the countless ancient gods invented in the past, originating form the luck of scientific knowledge yes but also the inner feel there is something bigger than human

Everyone is born atheist.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

'Science has credibility... Where-as your religion is nothing' hell yeah, the classic modern scientific showcase obsession against religion... the same science that's causing the climatic change that could even lead to extinction, the same science that created cancer, nuclear and atomic bombs that can kill millions with the press of a button, the mass murder weapons used in World Wars that had nothing to do with religion but killed so much more than science can save

Science isn't the cause of climate change, obviously your definition of science actually differs from what it actually is.

Science is an explanation of the nature world.

Cancer has always existed, it's a biological issue.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

lastly, we only have signs like Jesus existence and teachings - there are even miracle testimonies by modern monks, if there was a clear cut proof everyone would believe regardless of his true intentions, there can be no proof, think of it as trying to explain what each colour looks like to a born-blind person, he has never seen colour and never will, he cannot even imagine what red looks like no matter how hard you can try to explain it, cause it is outside of his reality, just like god is outside our reality, Christianity accepts just that, that we can never understand god apart from a few signs revealed to us

people stick too much on the supernatural and afterlife but it's not even worth thinking too much about - except the relief/hope that good-loved people are in a better place - I rather stick to how Christianity applies in real life and is proved to be great for the happiness and well being of Christian believers, as it should

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/religion-happy-atheism-psychology-faith-belief-emotion-mental-health-christianity-a8766376.html?fbclid=IwAR2WmsuBj2mePLINOEO2nSuEC6VyyaOZq6gJ5ZMzLPoinjIpYEtfNrMmB1w

Miracle testimonies are bullshit. - And are thus not evidence.

I can get testimonies of people who have seen the Earth is flat.

You can explain colour to a blind person, the imagination doesn't stop you know, colour doesn't have to be visual.

And yes you are right... Heaven is a feel-good scenario where a mass-murderer, mass-rapist, pedophiles and so on can "apologize" and get accepted into heaven to live a life of luxury...

Yet a first responder who might have saved thousands of lives might get eternal damnation.

I can see how fair that is. Completely. Yep. Totally.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 28 March 2020

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--