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Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

It's actually very pragmatic.
If assertions cannot be justified with empirical evidence.... I.E. Sin, God, Hell and so on, then they can be discarded.

Nope because will and emotions by design make no sense through an empirical analysis. You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it. Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence. I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion. The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Pemalite said:
mhsillen said:
But God would not allow this to go on forever. A perfect man sinned so to cover this he had to send a perfect man to cover this of course this was Jesus. A perfect man died to cover our sins. Of course God is perfect and his plan of an earthly paradise will happen. God will take 144.000 humans as co rulers with Christ. And the rest of God fearing humans will have a home on earth and grow to perfection. There is much more but my brain is tired

Well. Jesus of the Abrahamic Bible never really died did he? If Jesus is the Son of God, then he himself is God and God is supposed to be everything and something that is everything cannot possibly die, right? Making the entire self-sacrifice circle a pointless affair.

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.



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Eagle367 said:

You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it.

Actually we can.
Everything in our brains is governed by various electro-chemical processes, which we do actually have a scientific understanding-of.

I highly suggest you look at the studies being done to some great-apes, especially once we teach them human language.

Eagle367 said:

Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence.

False.

Eagle367 said:

I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion.

Mostly such angles of attack come about because religion comes into conflict with scientific achievement.
Case in point: Evolution. - The empirical evidence surrounding evolution is undeniable at this point, yet many religious folk will deny it all.

Let alone the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible.

Eagle367 said:

The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

The Scientific method has given us every single comfort we enjoy today.

It can and should be applied everywhere.

Science flies us to Mars, what does Religion fly us to? Hopes and Dreams?

EricHiggin said:

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Hitler's entire war was partly based on Religion and Anti-Religious rhetoric. (I.E. Antisemitism.)
The entire war in the Middle east, The Twin Towers... All of that, is because of Religion.

And the reason why we wouldn't let him advance is because of the millions that lost their lives, you don't need religion to be moral.
Besides, Science doesn't actually care about moralistic points of view, that is a human input, science is just there to explain the natural world.

EricHiggin said:

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.

Nah.
Another hypothesis is that Jesus was just a con-man who conned billions of people with fairy-tales and magic tricks.



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Pemalite said:
Eagle367 said:

You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it.

Actually we can.
Everything in our brains is governed by various electro-chemical processes, which we do actually have a scientific understanding-of.

I highly suggest you look at the studies being done to some great-apes, especially once we teach them human language.

Eagle367 said:

Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence.

False.

Eagle367 said:

I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion.

Mostly such angles of attack come about because religion comes into conflict with scientific achievement.
Case in point: Evolution. - The empirical evidence surrounding evolution is undeniable at this point, yet many religious folk will deny it all.

Let alone the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible.

Eagle367 said:

The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

The Scientific method has given us every single comfort we enjoy today.

It can and should be applied everywhere.

Science flies us to Mars, what does Religion fly us to? Hopes and Dreams?

EricHiggin said:

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Hitler's entire war was partly based on Religion and Anti-Religious rhetoric. (I.E. Antisemitism.)
The entire war in the Middle east, The Twin Towers... All of that, is because of Religion.

And the reason why we wouldn't let him advance is because of the millions that lost their lives, you don't need religion to be moral.
Besides, Science doesn't actually care about moralistic points of view, that is a human input, science is just there to explain the natural world.

EricHiggin said:

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.

Nah.
Another hypothesis is that Jesus was just a con-man who conned billions of people with fairy-tales and magic tricks.

There are so many fallacies and logical inconsistencies  inthis that I would like to address but I have a life and can't waste my time writing all of them down only to fall on deaf ears and be ignored. So good day, wish I had the free time to cinticonthis discussion but I don't. Just didn't want to leave this high and dry and wanted a proper closure to this



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Eagle367 said:

There are so many fallacies and logical inconsistencies  inthis that I would like to address but I have a life and can't waste my time writing all of them down only to fall on deaf ears and be ignored. So good day, wish I had the free time to cinticonthis discussion but I don't. Just didn't want to leave this high and dry and wanted a proper closure to this

You aren't really providing anything. Enjoy.

FYI. We all have lives and yet still find time to converse on the forum to an appropriate degree.



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EricHiggin said:

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do.

This is so insanely dumb, one cannot let this go unanswered.

Religion Inc. was behind Hitler 99.99%. The few exceptions (like a priest uncle of my mother who one day disappeared without a trace after speaking out against Hitler multiple times) don't really paint a better picture of "Religion Inc". This is, as usual, your convoluted attempt at giving morale to religion and deny it to science. Morale ultimately is an evolutionary trait, not a religious invention, so it actually belongs into the science box, not the religious box.



aiwass said:

He "sacrificed" himself (he's God, so I don't imagine it's too much of an inconvenience), gets to come back to life, AND gets to go to Heaven in the end. What about mortal people who have died in more gruesome ways in selfless acts who DON'T get to come back to life? Ultimately, the whole story isn't that impressive even if you believe it.

Why did he supposedly do it? I dunno, seems like absurd theatre for a timeless creator of the universe who takes a vested interest in where people place their reproductive organs.

craighopkins said: 

Jesus Quote "Seek me with all your heart and you will find me."

I sincerely sought it out for the majority of my life. Being surrounded by believers made it a profound inconvenience not to be convinced by this stuff. I still appreciate the church community and wish I still had the friendships that I lost due to my deconversion. As an omnipotent, all-knowing agent who knows exactly how many hairs are on my head, he would also know exactly what criteria is necessary to convince me of the religion. This quote, I'm sorry to say, is a load of old waffle.

You have to look for the difference, if you sincerely sought him (and I believe you).

You know, there is a difference between people dying gruesome deaths like any other human, after having lived, drank, made love and basically lived a normal human life, plus or minus some vices or virtues. But Jesus was God (as claimed), dying at the hands of his beloved creation in longing to save them. That is not just the death of a martyr, it is a declaration of love, one that many profess in love but only one did it fully while being perfectly good and blameless.

Do you see how his death is different?



padib said:
aiwass said:

He "sacrificed" himself (he's God, so I don't imagine it's too much of an inconvenience), gets to come back to life, AND gets to go to Heaven in the end. What about mortal people who have died in more gruesome ways in selfless acts who DON'T get to come back to life? Ultimately, the whole story isn't that impressive even if you believe it.

Why did he supposedly do it? I dunno, seems like absurd theatre for a timeless creator of the universe who takes a vested interest in where people place their reproductive organs.

I sincerely sought it out for the majority of my life. Being surrounded by believers made it a profound inconvenience not to be convinced by this stuff. I still appreciate the church community and wish I still had the friendships that I lost due to my deconversion. As an omnipotent, all-knowing agent who knows exactly how many hairs are on my head, he would also know exactly what criteria is necessary to convince me of the religion. This quote, I'm sorry to say, is a load of old waffle.

You have to look for the difference, if you sincerely sought him (and I believe you).

You know, there is a difference between people dying gruesome deaths like any other human, after having lived, drank, made love and basically lived a normal human life, plus or minus some vices or virtues. But Jesus was God (as claimed), dying at the hands of his beloved creation in longing to save them. That is not just the death of a martyr, it is a declaration of love, one that many profess in love but only one did it fully while being perfectly good and blameless.

Do you see how his death is different?

Who claims Jesus was God?

That is not how it is written down,God did create Jesus using an ancient spirit from the heavens and he used the image of himself but that does not make jesus into God.

 

Revelation 4:11

You are worthy, Jehovah* our God, to receive the glorya and the honorb and the power,c because you created all things,d and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

Luke3:38:

 son of Eʹnosh,ason of Seth,bson of Adam,cson of God.

John 1:49:

Na·thanʹa·el responded: “Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel.”

Colossians 1:15 :

 He is the image of the invisible God,a the firstborn of all creation;b

Micah 5:2:

And you, O Bethʹle·hem Ephʹra·thah,aThe one too little to be among the thousands*of Judah,From you will come out for me the one to be ruler in Israel,bWhose origin is from ancient times, from the days of long ago.

john 6;38:

for I have come down from heavena to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.b