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Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Well lets see God created the earth and the animals finally humans. But an angel who was power hungry deceived the humans by appealing to their selfishness and said you will be just like God with the knowledge of good and bad. Because of their actions they were banished from paradise. Like a disease imperfection spread to all men and woman due to this sin. Now Satan stood up when angels were assembled and he said humans could rule themselves without Gods help. God now because he believed in justice allowed this to happen he withdrew his help and allowed humans to rule themselves. But God would not allow this to go on forever. A perfect man sinned so to cover this he had to send a perfect man to cover this of course this was Jesus. A perfect man died to cover our sins. Of course God is perfect and his plan of an earthly paradise will happen. God will take 144.000 humans as co rulers with Christ. And the rest of God fearing humans will have a home on earth and grow to perfection. There is much more but my brain is tired



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drkohler said:
...

Wow, someone better call Columbia University, as

Richard Carrier has a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history

And calling him "another Mysthicist" instantly disqualifies you in this discussion.

I stand corrected. Still though, he's just one scholar out of hundreds. And his arguments are terrible. He's tried making the Osiris/Jesus connection before, and that argument is easily debunked by almost any book on the subject of Egyptian mythology. 



Immersiveunreality said:
Thing is ,if Jesus did exist and he knew how his name has been used as a tool for might and violence he most likely would have been very disgusted with it.
There is a good chance he existed but not in the way he is written down and used as.

Agreed. Even if Jesus did hypothetically exist... (I have heard people state there is evidence, but haven't scrutinized it myself, so not willing to take a definite stance yet.) - That still doesn't mean he was "Divine" or the "Son of God" or any of the other claims... That requires a whole heap of extra evidence to substantiate the original claims.

mhsillen said:
But God would not allow this to go on forever. A perfect man sinned so to cover this he had to send a perfect man to cover this of course this was Jesus. A perfect man died to cover our sins. Of course God is perfect and his plan of an earthly paradise will happen. God will take 144.000 humans as co rulers with Christ. And the rest of God fearing humans will have a home on earth and grow to perfection. There is much more but my brain is tired

Well. Jesus of the Abrahamic Bible never really died did he? If Jesus is the Son of God, then he himself is God and God is supposed to be everything and something that is everything cannot possibly die, right? Making the entire self-sacrifice circle a pointless affair.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Eagle367 said:

That is a very abstract and philosophical conversation, not a scientific one. You can't shoehorn science into everything. Because science can measure the physical, not the abstract. Is murder wrong because it's an evolutionary advantage and is in our genes or is there actually a soul and a set morality that is ingrained in us not biologically but metaphysically. Is morality the consequence of our time or is there an absolute morality that we are following or not. These are questions beyond science. Science has a lot of advantages but can't do everything. All intellectuals including atheists acknowledge that. Try asking people at the top of their scientific fields and they will tell you the same

It's actually very pragmatic.
If assertions cannot be justified with empirical evidence.... I.E. Sin, God, Hell and so on, then they can be discarded.

Nope because will and emotions by design make no sense through an empirical analysis. You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it. Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence. I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion. The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.



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Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

It's actually very pragmatic.
If assertions cannot be justified with empirical evidence.... I.E. Sin, God, Hell and so on, then they can be discarded.

Nope because will and emotions by design make no sense through an empirical analysis. You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it. Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence. I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion. The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Pemalite said:
mhsillen said:
But God would not allow this to go on forever. A perfect man sinned so to cover this he had to send a perfect man to cover this of course this was Jesus. A perfect man died to cover our sins. Of course God is perfect and his plan of an earthly paradise will happen. God will take 144.000 humans as co rulers with Christ. And the rest of God fearing humans will have a home on earth and grow to perfection. There is much more but my brain is tired

Well. Jesus of the Abrahamic Bible never really died did he? If Jesus is the Son of God, then he himself is God and God is supposed to be everything and something that is everything cannot possibly die, right? Making the entire self-sacrifice circle a pointless affair.

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.



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Eagle367 said:

You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it.

Actually we can.
Everything in our brains is governed by various electro-chemical processes, which we do actually have a scientific understanding-of.

I highly suggest you look at the studies being done to some great-apes, especially once we teach them human language.

Eagle367 said:

Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence.

False.

Eagle367 said:

I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion.

Mostly such angles of attack come about because religion comes into conflict with scientific achievement.
Case in point: Evolution. - The empirical evidence surrounding evolution is undeniable at this point, yet many religious folk will deny it all.

Let alone the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible.

Eagle367 said:

The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

The Scientific method has given us every single comfort we enjoy today.

It can and should be applied everywhere.

Science flies us to Mars, what does Religion fly us to? Hopes and Dreams?

EricHiggin said:

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Hitler's entire war was partly based on Religion and Anti-Religious rhetoric. (I.E. Antisemitism.)
The entire war in the Middle east, The Twin Towers... All of that, is because of Religion.

And the reason why we wouldn't let him advance is because of the millions that lost their lives, you don't need religion to be moral.
Besides, Science doesn't actually care about moralistic points of view, that is a human input, science is just there to explain the natural world.

EricHiggin said:

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.

Nah.
Another hypothesis is that Jesus was just a con-man who conned billions of people with fairy-tales and magic tricks.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Eagle367 said:

You can't measure emotion, intelligence, will and only consequences of it.

Actually we can.
Everything in our brains is governed by various electro-chemical processes, which we do actually have a scientific understanding-of.

I highly suggest you look at the studies being done to some great-apes, especially once we teach them human language.

Eagle367 said:

Any biological being that feels in any way cannot be put in a box with just empirical evidence.

False.

Eagle367 said:

I would say it's very close minded rather than pragmatic. Which is funny since atheists like to call religious people close minded without actually acknowledging any benefit of religion.

Mostly such angles of attack come about because religion comes into conflict with scientific achievement.
Case in point: Evolution. - The empirical evidence surrounding evolution is undeniable at this point, yet many religious folk will deny it all.

Let alone the scientific inaccuracies of the Bible.

Eagle367 said:

The scientific method cannot and should not be applied everywhere, it was never meant to be applied everywhere and it can be very destructive whent Ake to the extreme, just as most extremes can be.

The Scientific method has given us every single comfort we enjoy today.

It can and should be applied everywhere.

Science flies us to Mars, what does Religion fly us to? Hopes and Dreams?

EricHiggin said:

Without religion, it would be tough to scientifically reason that stopping Hitler was the right thing to do. If he and his people are tougher, smarter, more organized, etc, why not let them advance? Isn't that the reason for allowing tech to advance, because it's better than what exists now in terms of benefiting those who use that tech to their advantage? Tech may not have feelings now, but what about if we ever create true AI? Are we not allowed to discard and toss the old outdated units aside because they are, or seem conscious?

Hitler's entire war was partly based on Religion and Anti-Religious rhetoric. (I.E. Antisemitism.)
The entire war in the Middle east, The Twin Towers... All of that, is because of Religion.

And the reason why we wouldn't let him advance is because of the millions that lost their lives, you don't need religion to be moral.
Besides, Science doesn't actually care about moralistic points of view, that is a human input, science is just there to explain the natural world.

EricHiggin said:

Jesus is like the necessary scientific test to prove the theory. Let's just say God thought he knew everything, like some humans do, but needed to put it to the test physically to prove it.

Nah.
Another hypothesis is that Jesus was just a con-man who conned billions of people with fairy-tales and magic tricks.

There are so many fallacies and logical inconsistencies  inthis that I would like to address but I have a life and can't waste my time writing all of them down only to fall on deaf ears and be ignored. So good day, wish I had the free time to cinticonthis discussion but I don't. Just didn't want to leave this high and dry and wanted a proper closure to this



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Eagle367 said:

There are so many fallacies and logical inconsistencies  inthis that I would like to address but I have a life and can't waste my time writing all of them down only to fall on deaf ears and be ignored. So good day, wish I had the free time to cinticonthis discussion but I don't. Just didn't want to leave this high and dry and wanted a proper closure to this

You aren't really providing anything. Enjoy.

FYI. We all have lives and yet still find time to converse on the forum to an appropriate degree.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--