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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Can MS & Sony just simply make next gen fully BC?

I have an idea, keep your PS4.



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Rumors say the next Xbox and PS will be fully backwards compatible.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Here's my counter argument. Is it more profitable for Sony and MS to ignore BC to push remasters. Or is it instead more profitable to sell hundreds of BC games on new consoles and use them on subscription services?

MS has essentially handled this in an ideal way. They allow people to use their old discs and digital purchases, but they also allow people to buy virtually any game on BC digitally. They are also adding games that were never available digitally before on Xbox like Rage, Lost Odyssey, and Final Fantasy XIII. Its possible MS still sells millions of OG Xbox and Xbox 360 games digitally. BC content is also content used for Game Pass and Xbox Live. I think for the first time this month an OG Xbox game was used on Games with Gold.

It seems to me Sony selling PS1 games on the PS3, PSP and Vita was successful enough. You can even buy notable PS2 games on PS3 and PS4. But they don't put the same effort on getting content and frankly I don't think people have the same enthusiasm about 5th and 6th gen as much as 7th gen. Sony instead uses PS3 content on PS Now, but that's too expensive and streaming is not ideal for overall fidelity.

I think there is gonna be huge demand for BC on 9th gen consoles and that's why both Sony and MS are going to do it. It would also look bad is one offers it and the other does not.

But as Sony CEO said in the past, BC is often demanded, but rarely ever actually used apparently. Which means that while there's no technical reason why there's no BC, it has no guarantee to be included into the PS5. For MS, it wouldn't make sense to leave it out, but for SONY, it's the other way around. 

C'mon, in one hand they're suggesting people don't care BC. On the other hand they still sell old games.

Sony just released a device that plays PS1 games (badly). You can buy emulated PS2 games on PS4 and you can play PS3 games on PS Now. To be blunt, Sony is full of shit and downplayed BC because emulating PS3's CPU is difficult/impossible with the PS4's CPU. Emulating the 360 was easier because the CPU was more common tech and less capable.

MS and Nintendo say dumb shit as well. Simply try to decipher why they say it.



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killeryoshis said:
You can make hardware completely Backwards compatible and not ask a single developer. When Nintendo made the Wii it was completely backward compatible with the Gamecube. You can play any Gamecube game on the Wii. Sony also did this with the PS2 as it was able to play PS1 games no problem. Developers can't legally stop the Xbox 4 and PS5 from being backward compatible like the Wii. However, Developers can pressure Sony and Microsoft to not do it by support means. Which means that they will treat the system with no backward compatibility with better support.

Honestly making a system backward compatible is a lot of work. You have to basically make two consoles in one. Which is why a lot of systems don't do it. Microsoft only has to ask developers to add a game to BC because digital rights are different from physical rights.

Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all have differing agreements in place with games released on their platforms. - Agreements with potentially different stipulations.
Microsoft might not legally be able to provide backwards compatibility and thus require permission from each individual developer... Whilst Sony might have a different agreement in-place that sidesteps that entirely.

Kerotan said:

Does digital BC work the same as physical? As in Sony don't need to ask devs to allow us to play our digital ps4 games on ps5?

There might be different agreements in place.

Cloudman said:
I don't see why they can't if the tech isn't very different. The Wii wasn't that different from the GC, so it made it possible for BC. With there not being any weird tech like the cell processor in the PS3 (as far as I know), if the tech is not too different it could be possible for the PS5 to be BC I suppose.

Backwards compatibility can still break despite the hardware still being x86+AMD. - Lots has actually changed since 2013, especially on the CPU side.

Hiku said:

I'm sure they don't need to ask permission to make the hardware backwards compatible.
The reason they do that for Xbox One is because they're patching the games one by one to work on the new hardware.

Depends on console, depends on agreements in place.

Mr Puggsly said:

C'mon, in one hand they're suggesting people don't care BC. On the other hand they still sell old games.

Sony just released a device that plays PS1 games (badly). You can buy emulated PS2 games on PS4 and you can play PS3 games on PS Now. To be blunt, Sony is full of shit and downplayed BC because emulating PS3's CPU is difficult/impossible with the PS4's CPU. Emulating the 360 was easier because the CPU was more common tech and less capable.

MS and Nintendo say dumb shit as well. Simply try to decipher why they say it.

People said it was impossible for the Xbox 360 to be emulated on the Xbox One and I always argued the opposite.
Same with the Playstation 3, I think it is entirely possible to emulate that console on the Playstation 4.

I think people need to go out and actually research all the fundamental ways that backwards compatibility can be achieved, Microsoft for instance takes a very interesting approach on the Xbox One.

I mean shit. On the PC, the Playstation 3 Emulator is better than the Xbox 360 Emulator, so much for Cell being a hindrance?

Besides, because of the core counts of the 7th gen consoles... It's actually made emulation easier as games tend to have less of a reliance on timing.

Jigsawx1 said:
- "Can MS & Sony just simply make next gen fully BC? "

simply, yes because the architecture of the hardware will be the same

Well. No. The Architecture of the hardware will not be the same.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
killeryoshis said:
You can make hardware completely Backwards compatible and not ask a single developer. When Nintendo made the Wii it was completely backward compatible with the Gamecube. You can play any Gamecube game on the Wii. Sony also did this with the PS2 as it was able to play PS1 games no problem. Developers can't legally stop the Xbox 4 and PS5 from being backward compatible like the Wii. However, Developers can pressure Sony and Microsoft to not do it by support means. Which means that they will treat the system with no backward compatibility with better support.

Honestly making a system backward compatible is a lot of work. You have to basically make two consoles in one. Which is why a lot of systems don't do it. Microsoft only has to ask developers to add a game to BC because digital rights are different from physical rights.

Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all have differing agreements in place with games released on their platforms. - Agreements with potentially different stipulations.
Microsoft might not legally be able to provide backwards compatibility and thus require permission from each individual developer... Whilst Sony might have a different agreement in-place that sidesteps that entirely.

Kerotan said:

Does digital BC work the same as physical? As in Sony don't need to ask devs to allow us to play our digital ps4 games on ps5?

There might be different agreements in place.

Cloudman said:
I don't see why they can't if the tech isn't very different. The Wii wasn't that different from the GC, so it made it possible for BC. With there not being any weird tech like the cell processor in the PS3 (as far as I know), if the tech is not too different it could be possible for the PS5 to be BC I suppose.

Backwards compatibility can still break despite the hardware still being x86+AMD. - Lots has actually changed since 2013, especially on the CPU side.

Hiku said:

I'm sure they don't need to ask permission to make the hardware backwards compatible.
The reason they do that for Xbox One is because they're patching the games one by one to work on the new hardware.

Depends on console, depends on agreements in place.

Mr Puggsly said:

C'mon, in one hand they're suggesting people don't care BC. On the other hand they still sell old games.

Sony just released a device that plays PS1 games (badly). You can buy emulated PS2 games on PS4 and you can play PS3 games on PS Now. To be blunt, Sony is full of shit and downplayed BC because emulating PS3's CPU is difficult/impossible with the PS4's CPU. Emulating the 360 was easier because the CPU was more common tech and less capable.

MS and Nintendo say dumb shit as well. Simply try to decipher why they say it.

People said it was impossible for the Xbox 360 to be emulated on the Xbox One and I always argued the opposite.
Same with the Playstation 3, I think it is entirely possible to emulate that console on the Playstation 4.

I think people need to go out and actually research all the fundamental ways that backwards compatibility can be achieved, Microsoft for instance takes a very interesting approach on the Xbox One.

I mean shit. On the PC, the Playstation 3 Emulator is better than the Xbox 360 Emulator, so much for Cell being a hindrance?

Besides, because of the core counts of the 7th gen consoles... It's actually made emulation easier as games tend to have less of a reliance on timing.

Jigsawx1 said:
- "Can MS & Sony just simply make next gen fully BC? "

simply, yes because the architecture of the hardware will be the same

Well. No. The Architecture of the hardware will not be the same.

Well based on the Vita, Sony does need permission to give people access to games they already own digitally for PSP and PS1. Again, it seems to be the digital aspect that has complicated BC.

I dont know much about the PS3 emulator on PC, but I imagine it takes a CPU much capable than what PS4 has. Its the CPU where BC on X1 also struggles. Which is why Crysis nose dives in frame rate even on a X1X.

I think the impression is specs will be similar enough to just run natively kinda like how PC does. Except PC isnt 100% compatibility with new specs and you can run into even bigger problems by running a new version of Windows. Either way, I imagine these are obsticles they're currently looking at.



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Don't quote me on this, but I believe the reason not all Xbox and Xbox 360 games are available is because they still need some work, and Microsoft simply doesn't have the legal rights to do so without the permission of the relevant parties.
With the PS5 and Scarlett this shouldn't be a problem, I fully expect that everything which runs on the PS4 (PS4 games, VR games and PS2 games) run on PS5 day one, and the same with the Scarlett and everything which runs on XB1 (XB1 games and the select Xbox and X360 games).



Mr Puggsly said:

I dont know much about the PS3 emulator on PC, but I imagine it takes a CPU much capable than what PS4 has. Its the CPU where BC on X1 also struggles. Which is why Crysis nose dives in frame rate even on a X1X.

In the history of all Emulation efforts... You always need more CPU than the original hardware, goes for even the Xbox 360 Emulator.
The Playstation 3 Emulator tends to be superior than the Xbox 360 Emulator... Even in regards to hardware requirements, so much for the power of the Cell being a hindrance.

But Microsoft isn't doing 100% pure emulation anyway, so the issue is entirely moot.  - The Cell simply isn't a powerful CPU.

Crysis will get patched in time... Halo: Reach ran like a dogs breakfast for ages even on the Xbox One X before things were patched up... Takes them a few goes to get a hang of the idiosyncrasies of an engine.


Mr Puggsly said:

I think the impression is specs will be similar enough to just run natively kinda like how PC does. Except PC isnt 100% compatibility with new specs and you can run into even bigger problems by running a new version of Windows. Either way, I imagine these are obsticles they're currently looking at.

Rarely happens.
And any modern PC can retain 100% backwards compatibility with all software made anyway.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I dont know much about the PS3 emulator on PC, but I imagine it takes a CPU much capable than what PS4 has. Its the CPU where BC on X1 also struggles. Which is why Crysis nose dives in frame rate even on a X1X.

In the history of all Emulation efforts... You always need more CPU than the original hardware, goes for even the Xbox 360 Emulator.
The Playstation 3 Emulator tends to be superior than the Xbox 360 Emulator... Even in regards to hardware requirements, so much for the power of the Cell being a hindrance.

But Microsoft isn't doing 100% pure emulation anyway, so the issue is entirely moot.  - The Cell simply isn't a powerful CPU.

Crysis will get patched in time... Halo: Reach ran like a dogs breakfast for ages even on the Xbox One X before things were patched up... Takes them a few goes to get a hang of the idiosyncrasies of an engine.

Mr Puggsly said:

I think the impression is specs will be similar enough to just run natively kinda like how PC does. Except PC isnt 100% compatibility with new specs and you can run into even bigger problems by running a new version of Windows. Either way, I imagine these are obsticles they're currently looking at.

Rarely happens.
And any modern PC can retain 100% backwards compatibility with all software made anyway.

I think you're comparing the PC emulators, which isn't a fair comparison because that isn't equal optimization. I'm simply pointing out you still need a powerful CPU to make PS3 emulator run well on a PC. Hence, I'm reluctant to believe PS4's CPU can emulate the PS3 well.

Xbox 360 BC started rough, improved significantly, but still has limitations likely due to the hardware. Not every game is a locked 30 or 60 fps. Halo: Reach was a fairly early BC release and the biggest issue was frame pacing. It really feels like BC performance has hit a wall and I don't believe Crysis is gonna see much improvement in performance.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I think you're comparing the PC emulators, which isn't a fair comparison because that isn't equal optimization. I'm simply pointing out you still need a powerful CPU to make PS3 emulator run well on a PC. Hence, I'm reluctant to believe PS4's CPU can emulate the PS3 well.

Not sure you are understanding anything... So I will try another method.

Why do you think the PS4 is unable to emulate the PS3 well?

Mr Puggsly said:

Xbox 360 BC started rough, improved significantly, but still has limitations likely due to the hardware. Not every game is a locked 30 or 60 fps. Halo: Reach was a fairly early BC release and the biggest issue was frame pacing. It really feels like BC performance has hit a wall and I don't believe Crysis is gonna see much improvement in performance.

If they decreased accuracy they can increase performance.
A SNES Emulator with 100% accuracy can bring down even the fastest CPU's today.

I think you need to take look at how Microsoft is actually achieving backwards compatibility though. - It's not pure emulation.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

drkohler said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Next architecture being an evolution of current one should make it easy.

Ever heard of a thing called Shader Code? Unless develpers have been distributing their games with its shader code as source (almost certainly not the case, always binary), there is no way for full BC. It is very unlikely that the next gen gpu architecture fully "understands" old shader code (with all the timing problems as a supplement not even mentioned. Well k I just did..).

(That is likely the thing with "no full X360 bc on X1", there are games that just can't be emulated/reverse compiled unless MS gets access to the shader code.)

Don't console makers give devs access to their systems below a given level only through their APIs and standard libraries? This should give them enough knowledge and instruments to make a translation layer. Anyhow, PC and Android show us that if a new architecture is an evolution of the previous one, BC becomes far easier.
I have Win 7 on my PC, and I often play much older games on it, sometimes I had problems with old, ill-behaved DRMs, other times I had to get, usually from GOG, a new, tweaked setup to install them properly, but I rarely had problems with graphics, and in this case, most of the times it was just that the game offered a limited selection of possible resolutions, none of which looking good on new monitors, and even in this case I always found tweaks that solved the problem.



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