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Florida's Election Officials Questionable Behavior During the Recount is Harming Rick Scott

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I just want to pop in here and mention the difference between "this problem LITERALLY NEVER happens" and "it is so rare that the cost-benefit ratio of the proposed solution is just not good enough".

Like, suppose that you can do something that causes 1 case of fraud to be prevented and 10,000 cases of voters for whom the process is made so much more difficult that they don't vote when they otherwise would have. Is that worth it?



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Final-Fan said:

I just want to pop in here and mention the difference between "this problem LITERALLY NEVER happens" and "it is so rare that the cost-benefit ratio of the proposed solution is just not good enough".

Like, suppose that you can do something that causes 1 case of fraud to be prevented and 10,000 cases of voters for whom the process is made so much more difficult that they don't vote when they otherwise would have. Is that worth it?

That's a legit question, though I doubt it's anywhere near that ratio.

My answer would be that registration and voting are becoming easier over time.  Too easy in some cases (I have a distaste for early voting but that's another subject and one I'm afraid is long lost).  As long as that trend continues, there's a free lunch of sorts in the types of anti-voter fraud measures we're talking about.



When Donald Trump says people changed cloth to vote twice, he is absolutely right. A particularly suspicious one was spotted in Washington D.C. He was wearing a strange wig and an orange face cream.

NightlyPoe said:
SpokenTruth said:
1. Fraudulent ID. Tell me how you registered to vote with a fake ID that isn't on the state database?  And let's say you tried to register with someone elses real ID.  Guess what happens when it shows up twice on the voter database?  You were aware you have to register to vote before you can vote, yes?

Are you under the impression that all IDs in a state's database are on the up and up?  Heck, many of the controversy about this exists specifically because of rules making it more difficult to obtain fraudulent IDs.  Such as the S. Dakota controversy earlier in the thread.

Also, many states do have same-day registration and more will in the future.

2. Impersonation.  Not sure how that works because you need to show the voter registration (and ID depending on state) at the poll for voting.  So now you have to look like them AND have their ID and/or voter registration card.  But I'm going to ask how many people do you really think are impersonating others for the sake of voting and not something like...credit card fraud, loan fraud, etc...  You know, something lucrative for such extensive work.

Again, you've stumbled onto one of the main controversies.  Those who declare voting fraud to be non-existent use it to try and stop laws that require tighter standards for voting identification.  Many states don't require any state-issued ID (photo or otherwise) whatsoever.  For example, here's California's website which says you don't need an ID, but to be on the safe side the first time you vote, a sample ballot will do.

https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/

Looking at Wiki (grain of salt noted with the source) and assuming my quick count is right, 17 states require photo IDs, 16 require non-photo IDs, and 17 don't require IDs at all.

3. Messing with mail-in ballots?  Uh, how?

How to mess with ballots whereby no one sees the person voting?  Voting for grandma or someone else in your household you know won't vote themselves, setting up a fake registration(s) remotely and getting multiple ballots sent that way.

Again, I'm sure my imagination for criminal behavior is wanting.

4. Unmatched signature.

I was explaining why it was so difficult to catch someone and why the numbers would be low and an example where a person was basically caught, but you would never show up in a count of voter fraud.  You unfortunately base a lot of the rest of your post around the idea that I am only including failed attempts.  In another scenario, the person votes and that is also how the play ends.  And it also leaves you, again, not addressing the issue of human nature because you believed that I made some sort of error.

I've come to the conclusion you are not very well versed in the voting process.  Some of your possible fraud methods are based on a premise that doesn't match the voting process itself.

Actually, I think we've more established that about you.  You seem to believe that the measures taken to prevent voting fraud are already in place everywhere, when the very controversy exists because attempts are being made to put them in place and Democrats are resisting their implementation.

At this point, your cognitive dissonance makes me wonder if you actively want voter fraud to be pervasive.

I rather find it to be a remarkable act of political will to tell a big lie long enough that people believe it.  10 years ago when this was getting started, the idea that voter fraud just never happens was greeted with chuckles even on the left.  But now it's greeted as a fact.

I found it.  I found it.  Another actual case of election fraud.  Again, just like the other case I showed you, in favor of Republicans.

 

So are you Republicans going to burn Bay County Supervisor of Elections Mark Andersen and Mark Harris congressional campaign at the stake like you did with Broward County Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes?

Last edited by SpokenTruth - 6 days ago

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

SpokenTruth said:
NightlyPoe said:

Are you under the impression that all IDs in a state's database are on the up and up?  Heck, many of the controversy about this exists specifically because of rules making it more difficult to obtain fraudulent IDs.  Such as the S. Dakota controversy earlier in the thread.

Also, many states do have same-day registration and more will in the future.

2. Impersonation.  Not sure how that works because you need to show the voter registration (and ID depending on state) at the poll for voting.  So now you have to look like them AND have their ID and/or voter registration card.  But I'm going to ask how many people do you really think are impersonating others for the sake of voting and not something like...credit card fraud, loan fraud, etc...  You know, something lucrative for such extensive work.

Again, you've stumbled onto one of the main controversies.  Those who declare voting fraud to be non-existent use it to try and stop laws that require tighter standards for voting identification.  Many states don't require any state-issued ID (photo or otherwise) whatsoever.  For example, here's California's website which says you don't need an ID, but to be on the safe side the first time you vote, a sample ballot will do.

https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/what-bring/

Looking at Wiki (grain of salt noted with the source) and assuming my quick count is right, 17 states require photo IDs, 16 require non-photo IDs, and 17 don't require IDs at all.

3. Messing with mail-in ballots?  Uh, how?

How to mess with ballots whereby no one sees the person voting?  Voting for grandma or someone else in your household you know won't vote themselves, setting up a fake registration(s) remotely and getting multiple ballots sent that way.

Again, I'm sure my imagination for criminal behavior is wanting.

4. Unmatched signature.

I was explaining why it was so difficult to catch someone and why the numbers would be low and an example where a person was basically caught, but you would never show up in a count of voter fraud.  You unfortunately base a lot of the rest of your post around the idea that I am only including failed attempts.  In another scenario, the person votes and that is also how the play ends.  And it also leaves you, again, not addressing the issue of human nature because you believed that I made some sort of error.

I've come to the conclusion you are not very well versed in the voting process.  Some of your possible fraud methods are based on a premise that doesn't match the voting process itself.

Actually, I think we've more established that about you.  You seem to believe that the measures taken to prevent voting fraud are already in place everywhere, when the very controversy exists because attempts are being made to put them in place and Democrats are resisting their implementation.

At this point, your cognitive dissonance makes me wonder if you actively want voter fraud to be pervasive.

I rather find it to be a remarkable act of political will to tell a big lie long enough that people believe it.  10 years ago when this was getting started, the idea that voter fraud just never happens was greeted with chuckles even on the left.  But now it's greeted as a fact.

I found it.  I found it.  An another actual case of election fraud.  Again, just like the other case I showed you, in favor of Republicans.

 

So are you Republicans going to burn Bay County Supervisor of Elections Mark Andersen and Mark Harris congressional campaign at the stake like you did with Broward County Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes?

Was it really necessary to bump up this shitpost?



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Errorist76 said:
SpokenTruth said:

I found it.  I found it.  An another actual case of election fraud.  Again, just like the other case I showed you, in favor of Republicans.

 

So are you Republicans going to burn Bay County Supervisor of Elections Mark Andersen and Mark Harris congressional campaign at the stake like you did with Broward County Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes?

Was it really necessary to bump up this shitpost?

Absolutely.  He was right all along.  Election fraud has been happening.  I had to let him know.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Errorist76 said:
SpokenTruth said:

I found it.  I found it.  An another actual case of election fraud.  Again, just like the other case I showed you, in favor of Republicans.

 

So are you Republicans going to burn Bay County Supervisor of Elections Mark Andersen and Mark Harris congressional campaign at the stake like you did with Broward County Supervisor of Elections Brenda Snipes?

Was it really necessary to bump up this shitpost?

You must understand, a partisan cheap shot was necessary even if it does blow a hole in his claims.

I'll note that I never claimed that Republicans were angels either.  Hence the necessity of laws.  I thank SpokenTruth for demonstrating the correctness of my opinion.



SpokenTruth said:
Errorist76 said:

Was it really necessary to bump up this shitpost?

Absolutely.  He was right all along.  Election fraud has been happening.  I had to let him know.

Torn between bumping this thread, or just creating a new one.

Think I'd have gone for a new one. There is so much to it that a new one probably better to explain it all.

The most hilarious part being that this straight up voter fraud would not have been stopped by any voter ID law.



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NightlyPoe said:
Errorist76 said:

Was it really necessary to bump up this shitpost?

You must understand, a partisan cheap shot was necessary even if it does blow a hole in his claims.

I'll note that I never claimed that Republicans were angels either.  Hence the necessity of laws.  I thank SpokenTruth for demonstrating the correctness of my opinion.

The degree to which SpokenTruth has validated your previously-stated position is very narrow IMO.  He demonstrated that voting fraud is probably a real issue in some places, yes.  But a mail-in voting fraud scandal doesn't justify laws that make it significantly harder to vote in person but do nothing to stop the sort of fraud that allegedly happened.  What laws are you referring to that this demonstrates the necessity of, and (if this isn't already self-evident after the previous) what is their relation to the laws that you were previously defending? 

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten the Supreme Court thing.  Real life is getting in the way and I'm afraid I don't have the energy to give it too much of my free time.  (My car is dying, work is in a crunch, and I have to build a computer.) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
NightlyPoe said:

You must understand, a partisan cheap shot was necessary even if it does blow a hole in his claims.

I'll note that I never claimed that Republicans were angels either.  Hence the necessity of laws.  I thank SpokenTruth for demonstrating the correctness of my opinion.

The degree to which SpokenTruth has validated your previously-stated position is very narrow IMO.  He demonstrated that voting fraud is probably a real issue in some places, yes.  But a mail-in voting fraud scandal doesn't justify laws that make it significantly harder to vote in person but do nothing to stop the sort of fraud that allegedly happened.  What laws are you referring to that this demonstrates the necessity of, and (if this isn't already self-evident after the previous) what is their relation to the laws that you were previously defending? 

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten the Supreme Court thing.  Real life is getting in the way and I'm afraid I don't have the energy to give it too much of my free time.  (My car is dying, work is in a crunch, and I have to build a computer.) 

Actually, I did point out mail-in voter fraud as a potential problem.  SpokenTruth mocked me for it.  I'll also point out that new laws like California's ballot harvesting would make chicanery of the type being alleged here easier.

As for other laws, it is what I said.  People will always try to cheat a system.  Particularly one with low barriers.  It doesn't make sense that this would be the only method anyone would use.

Last edited by NightlyPoe - 6 days ago