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Florida's Election Officials Questionable Behavior During the Recount is Harming Rick Scott

Forums - Politics Discussion - Florida's Election Officials Questionable Behavior During the Recount is Harming Rick Scott

The thread has been reported several times for the title. And I agree that its a gross generalization and is bait. I have changed the title of this thread to better represent its content.

     

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NightlyPoe said: 
Hiku said:

It also serves the purpose of preventing/mitigating voter suppression.
Georgia voting machines in one area where hundreds of people lined up to vote were missing power cords. Another area had only two voting machines for hundreds of people, making them stand in line for hours and hours without getting to vote, etc.

And I'm not sure what type of voter fraud you are suggesting, but voter suppression tends to only impact in person voting. And impersonation voting fraud is next to non existant, and inconsequential. Between 2000 and 2014, there were only 31 instances of potential voter fraud found out of over a billion votes.

A missing power cord or not enough machines is incompetence at the local level stemming from officials that represent the district in question itself and has nothing to do with any law we're talking about.

And found instances of voter fraud are irrelevant.  Law enforcement undercounts ALL crimes that are committed.  And Democrats are doing everything in their power to make sure that it's easier to do and get away with.  So it's not shocking that lax laws combined with a crime that incredibly difficult to detect make for an underreporting of the actual instances.

Why is it that you believe that voting is the one area of life where men are angels and no laws are needed?  This seems to me to be an article of (bad) faith.  You can't actually believe that only 4 people voted illegally in a 15 year period.

This is not the first time you immediately resort to personal attacks. And not just against me. You particularly like to cite "bad faith" before asking for clarification. Which only looks like projection. Either way, you should make an effort to keep personal attacks out of these discussions. I know I certainly have. Try to be respectful of other people's opinions when you question them, and don't jump to conclusions. It's not too much to ask. If you keep doing this I'll link a moderator to every post of mine, as well as other people I've seen you respond to in this manner. And I'm not the only one who told you to stop doing this. I don't think this is necessary nor productive for the discussions. Which reminds me, I need to get back to you on some of our previous discussions now that I fixed my computer issue.

Now tell me, should missing power cords (in districts where minorities just happen to make up most of the voters) be waved away as "incompetence" when Brian Kemp is overseeing the voter rolls in an official capacity?
No. That would make voter suppression even easier. We should have rules and regulations in place to prevent these things from happening. And if they do, have serious consequences for those overseeing the voting.

Found instances of voter fraud after a comprehensive investigation specifically on that subject is very relevant. And certainly a lot more than unsubstantiated claims.
I'm sure the number is higher than 4. The point is it's extremely rare.
Many studies show that they can usually be traced back to clerical errors, among other things:

Studies Agree: Impersonation Fraud by Voters Very Rarely Happens

  • The Brennan Center’s seminal report on this issue, The Truth About Voter Fraud, found that most reported incidents of voter fraud are actually traceable to other sources, such as clerical errors or bad data matching practices. The report reviewed elections that had been meticulously studied for voter fraud, and found incident rates between 0.0003 percent and 0.0025 percent. Given this tiny incident rate for voter impersonation fraud, it is more likely, the report noted, that an American “will be struck by lightning than that he will impersonate another voter at the polls.”
  • A study published by a Columbia University political scientist tracked incidence rates for voter fraud for two years, and found that the rare fraud that was reported generally could be traced to “false claims by the loser of a close race, mischief and administrative or voter error.”
  • 2017 analysis published in The Washington Post concluded that there is no evidence to support Trump’s claim that Massachusetts residents were bused into New Hampshire to vote.
  • comprehensive 2014 study published in The Washington Post found 31 credible instances of impersonation fraud from 2000 to 2014, out of more than 1 billion ballots cast. Even this tiny number is likely inflated, as the study’s author counted not just prosecutions or convictions, but any and all credible claims.
  • Two studies done at Arizona State University, one in 2012 and another in 2016, found similarly negligible rates of impersonation fraud. The project found 10 cases of voter impersonation fraud nationwide from 2000-2012. The follow-up study, which looked for fraud specifically in states where politicians have argued that fraud is a pernicious problem, found zero successful prosecutions for impersonation fraud in five states from 2012-2016.
  • A review of the 2016 election found four documented cases of voter fraud. 
  • Research into the 2016 election found no evidence of widespread voter fraud.
  • 2016 working paper concluded that the upper limit on double voting in the 2012 election was 0.02%. The paper noted that the incident rate was likely much lower, given audits conducted by the researchers showed that “many, if not all, of these apparent double votes could be a result of measurement error.”
  • 2014 paper concluded that “the likely percent of non-citizen voters in recent US elections is 0.”
  • 2014 nationwide study found “no evidence of widespread impersonation fraud” in the 2012 election.
  • 2014 study that examined impersonation fraud both at the polls and by mail ballot found zero instances in the jurisdictions studied.
  • 2014 study by the non-partisan Government Accountability Office, which reflected a literature review of the existing research on voter fraud, noted that the studies consistently found “few instances of in-person voter fraud.”
  • While writing a 2012 book, a researcher went back 30 years to try to find an example of voter impersonation fraud determining the outcome of an election, but was unable to find even one.
  • 2012 study exhaustively pulled records from every state for all alleged election fraud, and found the overall fraud rate to be “infinitesimal” and impersonation fraud by voters at the polls to be the rarest fraud of all: only 10 cases alleged in 12 years. The same studyfound only 56 alleged cases of non-citizen voting, in 12 years.
  • 2012 assessment of Georgia’s 2006 election found “no evidence that election fraud was committed under the auspices of deceased registrants.”
  • 2011 study by the Republican National Lawyers Association found that, between 2000 and 2010, 21 states had 1 or 0 convictions for voter fraud or other kinds of voting irregularities.
  • 2010 book cataloguing reported incidents of voter fraud concluded that nearly all allegations turned out to be clerical errors or mistakes, not fraud.
  • 2009 analysis examined 12 states and found that fraud by voters was “very rare,” and also concluded that many of the cases that garnered media attention were ultimately unsubstantiated upon further review.
  • Additional research on noncitizen voting can be found here: http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/analysis-noncitizen-voting-vanishingly-rare.
  • Additional resources can be found here: https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/analysis-and-reports.

Courts Agree: Fraud by Voters at the Polls is Nearly Non-Existent

  • The Fifth Circuit, in an opinion finding that Texas’s strict photo ID law is racially discriminatory, noted that there were “only two convictions for in-person voter impersonation fraud out of 20 million votes cast in the decade” before Texas passed its law.
  • In its opinion striking down North Carolina’s omnibus restrictive election law —which included a voter ID requirement — as purposefully racially discriminatory, the Fourth Circuit noted that the state “failed to identify even a single individual who has ever been charged with committing in-person voter fraud in North Carolina.”
  • federal trial court in Wisconsin reviewing that state’s strict photo ID law found “that impersonation fraud — the type of fraud that voter ID is designed to prevent — is extremely rare” and “a truly isolated phenomenon that has not posed a significant threat to the integrity of Wisconsin’s elections.”
  • Even the Supreme Court, in its opinion in Crawford upholding Indiana’s voter ID law, noted that the record in the case “contains no evidence of any [in-person voter impersonation] fraud actually occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.” Two of the jurists who weighed in on that case at the time — Republican-appointed former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens and conservative appellate court Judge Richard Posner — have since announced they regret their votes in favor of the law, with Judge Posner noting that strict photo ID laws are “now widely regarded as a means of voter suppression rather than of fraud prevention.”

Government Investigations Agree: Voter Fraud Is Rare

  • Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, a longtime proponent of voter suppression efforts, argued before state lawmakers that his office needed special power to prosecute voter fraud, because he knew of 100 such cases in his state. After being granted these powers, he has brought six such cases, of which only four have been successful. The secretary has also testified about his review of 84 million votes cast in 22 states, which yielded 14 instances of fraud referred for prosecution, which amounts to a 0.00000017 percent fraud rate.
  • Texas lawmakers purported to pass its strict photo ID law to protect against voter fraud. Yet the chief law enforcement official in the state responsible for such prosecutions knew of only one conviction and one guilty plea that involved in-person voter fraud in all Texas elections from 2002 through 2014.
  • A specialized United States Department of Justice unit formed with the goal of finding instances of federal election fraud examined the 2002 and 2004 federal elections, and were able to prove that 0.00000013 percent of ballots cast were fraudulent. There was no evidence that any of these incidents involved in-person impersonation fraud. Over a five year period, they found “no concerted effort to tilt the election.”
  • An investigation in Colorado, in which the Secretary of State alleged 100 cases of voter fraud, yielded one conviction.
  • In Maine, an investigation into 200 college students revealed no evidence of fraud. Shortly thereafter, an Elections Commission appointed by a Republican secretary of state found “there is little or no history in Maine of voter impersonation or identification fraud.” 
  • In Florida, a criminal investigation into nine individuals who allegedly committed absentee ballot fraud led to all criminal charges being dismissed against all voters.
  • In 2012, Florida Governor Rick Scott initiated an effort to remove non-citizen registrants from the state’s rolls. The state’s list of 182,000 alleged non-citizen registrants quickly dwindled to 198. Even this amended list contained many false positives, such as a WWII veteran born in Brooklyn. In the end, only 85 non-citizen registrants were identified and only one was convicted of fraud, out of a total of 12 million registered voters.
  • In Iowa, a multi-year investigation into fraud led to just 27 prosecutions out of 1.6 million ballots cast. In 2014 the state issued a report on the investigation citing only six prosecutions.
  • In Wisconsin, a task force charged 20 individuals with election crimes. The majority charged were individuals with prior criminal convictions, who are often caught up by confusing laws regarding restoration of their voting rights.

Courts and government back this up.

However, these are hundreds of people standing in line for hours unable to vote.





And nowhere did I say that we shouldn't have laws for voting. That's entirely a misunderstanding on your end. You should have asked me first, rather than sprouting your usual "bad faith" presumption comment. But if you're going to require ID for voting, then it should be one form of ID. And it should be made readily available and free to obtain. People shouldn't be turned away and sent back home to get more and more credentials multiple times, until the polls close. Or they run out of power cords...

By the way, you dismiss proven cases of people being unable to vote for various reasons as less of an issue than voter fraud which you can't prove is significant? Unlike you I won't immediately accuse you of making bad faith arguments. I will ask you to explain your reasoning. See the difference?

Last edited by Hiku - on 18 November 2018

thismeintiel said:

Things in Florida have gotten quite pathetic with this mid-term. At first it seemed to be just two counties screwing with the election results, but now a third has joined the fray. Before the recount, we had Broward County continuing to get ballots after the deadline, with the election official refusing to be transparent about the whole process, i.e. where they came from and how many were left. And in Palm Beach County, you had an election official and her staff "fixing" ballots that were damaged or incorrectly filled out, when those are to be handled by a nonpartisan canvassing board. Fortunately, Rick Scott filed a lawsuit that pretty much stopped this in its tracks and we now have a recount going on.

Unfortunately, it seems that Dems are being sore losers in Florida, mucking up the recount process. In Broward County, election officials uploaded the machine recount total two minutes after the 3 PM deadline, voiding the results back to the initial count. This just so happened to erase a gain for Rick Scott of around 780 votes. In Palm Beach County, they missed the deadline, partly thanks to mechanical error. The only problem is that technicians for the machines witnessed election officials jamming papers clips in the Enter button on at least one of the scanners, which short circuited it. And the county I mentioned joining the fray, which was Hillsborough, refused to give its numbers on time because their were fewer votes this time around. My guess is that some were deemed invalid for the recount, so they took "a stand" for all votes to be counted. One that just so happened to take away 150 votes from Scott.

Now, we'll have to wait and see if we have any other fishy business that goes on during the manual count. Well, except we did have Broward County mixing some ballots meant for the Senate race in with the one for Commissioner. Fortunately, it seems they were caught just in time. Hopefully, that will be the last of it. And at least for the Governor's race, Gillum has decided to concede. For the second time.

- Source

After what Republicans pulled in 2000, the Democrats still have a long way to go to catch up in the cheating department.

Hiku said: 
This is not the first time you immediately resort to personal attacks. And not just against me. You particularly like to cite "bad faith" before asking for clarification. Which only looks like projection. Either way, you should make an effort to keep personal attacks out of these discussions. I know I certainly have. Try to be respectful of other people's opinions when you question them, and don't jump to conclusions. It's not too much to ask. If you keep doing this I'll link a moderator to every post of mine, as well as other people I've seen you respond to in this manner.

I deny using personal attacks.  I make efforts not to attack people personally and to stay on topic, giving comprehensive answers.

Behave yourself.  You are the one trying to drag this into the personal realm, you do so repeatedly throughout your reply, and are further threatening me with administrative action.

Now tell me, should missing power cords (in districts where minorities just happen to make up most of the voters) be waved away as "incompetence" when Brian Kemp is overseeing the voter rolls in an official capacity?

Kemp is not in charge of power cords.  The officials who do have responsibility are chosen locally within those counties.  Short of putting a county in receivership (and I doubt Kemp announcing he was taking over control of a minority district would go over well), what's to be done at the state level when things go sideways on election day due to poor planning?

Found instances of voter fraud after a comprehensive investigation specifically on that subject is very relevant. And certainly a lot more than unsubstantiated claims.
I'm sure the number is higher than 4. The point is it's extremely rare.
I'm sure the number is higher than 4. The point is it's extremely rare.

Again, found instances necessarily scratch the surface of any crime.  I ask again, what is so special about voting that man's nature is different and no one cheats just for this single aspect of our lives?

Until that question can be answered, then it's safe to assume that voter fraud exists no matter how many articles are presented based on the found cases.

However, these are hundreds of people standing in line for hours unable to vote.

Again, local issues.

But if you're going to require ID for voting, then it should be one form of ID. And it should be made readily available and free to obtain. People shouldn't be turned away and sent back home to get more and more credentials multiple times, until the polls close. Or they run out of power cords...

A simple look at Georgia's website shows a list of acceptable IDs that are in line with the standards of the rest of the country and that free IDs are available.  No where does it ask for additional forms of identification aside from in receiving the ID in the first place.

https://dds.georgia.gov/voter-id

By the way, you dismiss proven cases of people being unable to vote for various reasons as less of an issue than voter fraud which you can't prove is significant? 

I think that voter registration practices and voting itself is fair and widespread.  And that the rules we do have in place for registration are not restrictive and attempt to accommodate those who require such.

Last edited by NightlyPoe - on 18 November 2018

FentonCrackshell said:
pokoko said:
And rational people see both parties do the same things when they lose and chuckle at the "but the other side is WAY WORSE" bullshit.

This is the perfect retort. On every single article on every single website you’ll find people from opposite sides of the political spectrum being hypocrites. They’ll both give examples of the other side doing some bullish!t wit will never agree that both sides have sh!t and hypocrisy in their ranks.

I just read this in an article on a liberal website: “Of course the threads of a fascist politics weave through both political parties, which have sold their souls to the financial elite, though the Democrats do their work under the cover of self-righteousness and constitutional liberties while the Republicans bask in their embrace of corruption and a craven silence in the face of Trumpism.”

That’s a great summation of the way to hunts are. But you should read the comments there. It’s either they’re mad at the author or they point out how much worse the other side is. I lean left but I’ve been kicked off many websites for calling out liberal hypocrisy. And I’ve been kicked off right-wing sites for calling out conservative hypocrisy. See, neither side likes to lookin the mirror. 

The irony is that they aren't just hurting themselves and the country in general, they're hurting the party they love so much by refusing to hold other members accountable.  Both parties would be much better off if people stopped ignoring bad behavior and trying to shift blame at every opportunity.  If you criticize any politician, no matter how reasonable and accurate your point, you can bet that someone will resort to whataboutism.



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collint0101 said:

Source is a Fox news link, yeah has all the credibility of a republican uncle rambling at Thanksgiving dinner. Either way recounts never hurt anybody.

Fox News backed the CNN Acosta legal battle with the White House, which Acosta won.

Bush vs Gore?



Initial 8th gen console wars as explained by The Matrix
XB - Did you know that the XB1 was designed to be a perfect multimedia device? Where none shared, where everyone would use Kinect. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire 360 catalogue was lost. Some believed we lacked the console gamer logic to describe the perfect system, but we believed that, as a community, console gamers define their reality through waiting and micro-transactions. The imperfect hardware was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the XB1 was redesigned to this: the XB1S and XB1X, the peak of console 4k capability.
PS - You're more attractive than I thought. I can see why they like you. - Who? - Not too bright though… You know why Cerny was hired to design the PS4? – Yes. – So, what do you think? Do you think you’re the One? – Honestly, we don’t know. - Do you know what that phrase means? It’s gamer lingo for know thyself. I’m going to let you in on a little secret. Being the One is a lot like being the PS3. No one needs tell you that you screwed up, you just know it, through and through, hardware to exclusives.
Nin - Ok, now I'm supposed to say, hmm, that's interesting, but...then you say...- But what? - But...you already know what I'm going to tell you. - I'm not the Wii. - Sorry tablet. You got the gimmick, but it looks like you're waiting for something. - What? - Your next life maybe, who knows? That's the way these things go...   /  Unfortunately no one can be told what the Wii U is. You have to experience it for yourself. 
PC - Welcome to the x86 real gaming world. 
// //
Lol, 3pm deadline on a workday. See, this wouldn't happen in countries with actual democracies.

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

vivster said:
Lol, 3pm deadline on a workday. See, this wouldn't happen in countries with actual democracies.

What's wrong with a deadline for counting votes happening towards the end of a work day?



NightlyPoe said:
vivster said:
Lol, 3pm deadline on a workday. See, this wouldn't happen in countries with actual democracies.

What's wrong with a deadline for counting votes happening towards the end of a work day?

A misunderstanding on my part. I assumed sending in the votes is done on the same day as the poll. Still pretty atrocious for a proclaimed democracy to have votes on a workday at all.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

Rêveur said:
Democrats haven't become sore losers, they've already been them for a while now. Every time there is a request for a recount, it's when democrats lose. This midterm election only shows how much more whiny they've become. The amount of crying and whining and accusations of fraud or voter suppression has just gone through the roof. Really shows that the party that accused Trump of not being able to accept the results of an election (when it was predicted he would lose) is the party that in fact, can't handle results themselves.

But it's not surprising. The left teaches people that you are always the victim of something when things don't go your way. These losers were simply behaving the way they had been brought up.

The recounts were not requested.  They were enacted by law and cannot be initiated by the candidates.  So no, they were not being whiny.  It was the law. 

"Florida state law provides for automatic recounts when the margin of victory for a given office or measure is equal to or less than 0.5 percent of the total votes cast for that office or measure. If the margin of victory is equal to or less than 0.25 percent, a hand recount is ordered (automatic tabulators are otherwise used). The relevant state statutes do not appear to provide for candidate-initiated or voter-initiated recounts. For more information about recount procedures in Florida, see Section 102.166 of the Florida Statutes."

And don't bring up accusations of voter fraud because that was being accused by the Republicans, not the Democrats.  Did you know Trump accused Democrats of voting multiple times by simply changing their shirt and going back to vote again and again?

By the way, you want actual voter fraud in Florida?  Look to heavily Republican Bay County where the Republican supervisor of elections allowed residents to vote via email which is expressly prohibited by law.

NightlyPoe said:

And found instances of voter fraud are irrelevant.  Law enforcement undercounts ALL crimes that are committed.  And Democrats are doing everything in their power to make sure that it's easier to do and get away with.  So it's not shocking that lax laws combined with a crime that incredibly difficult to detect make for an underreporting of the actual instances.

Why is it that you believe that voting is the one area of life where men are angels and no laws are needed?  This seems to me to be an article of (bad) faith.  You can't actually believe that only 4 people voted illegally in a 15 year period.

NightlyPoe said:

Again, found instances necessarily scratch the surface of any crime.  I ask again, what is so special about voting that man's nature is different and no one cheats just for this single aspect of our lives?

Until that question can be answered, then it's safe to assume that voter fraud exists no matter how many articles are presented based on the found cases.

Prove it.  Prove it is under-counted.  Hiku just gave you a massive list supporting his case and you have....what?

Further that, how?  How are people voting fraudulently and how are they being under-counted in all of those sources Huku gave you?

That said, I just linked to real voter fraud but you're probably going to ignore that because it was Republicans voting fraudulently.



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