Quantcast
PS5: Leaked Design And Technology [RUMOUR]

Forums - Sony Discussion - PS5: Leaked Design And Technology [RUMOUR]

Here we go again with the nothing-burger rumors of the PS5... I remember back in 2016, there was PS5 media hype - it's now almost 2019 and the media got it all wrong ever since then.

The PS5 IS NOT coming in 2019 - Death Stranding, Last of Us 2, and Ghost of Tsushima will need to have launched before the PS5 hits shelves. The PS5 will most likely come out on Nov 2020.



Around the Network
fatslob-:O said:
EricHiggin said:

Sure but if Ryzen 2 is on 7nm next year, assuming that PS5 will end up on 7nm+ by years end seems like a far stretch. We also don't know what kind of capacity TSMC will have at that time. If they can't guarantee 10's of millions of chips early on in the gen on that process, with high yields, then PS won't use it.

Samsung is a different company with their own foundries so that doesn't mean much in terms of TSMC other than competition. How widely available and expensive are those products though?

Ryzen 2 is already here, it's Ryzen 3 you're talking about that will feature AMD's 2nd generation Zen microachitecture and will be based on next generation logic nodes 7nm/7nm+ ... 

Another likely possibility will be next gen console APUs will likely be based on Ryzen APU's which always release after the pure Ryzen CPU parts so that makes it even more likely that 7nm+ is a potential target. TSMC had enough capacity this year to launch dozen's of millions of new iPhone XS/XR so I'm pretty certain that TSMC would be able to handle the launch of a potential PS5 especially since 7nm+ is a low risk delivery node when TSMC is just upgrading their production lines to use ASML's new EUV scanners ... 

As for Samsung, they aren't just an IDM since they actually do have chip design customers but I think the likelihood of a PS5 launch in 2019 is very slim regardless ... (as for the price, don't be too concerned about it since a short term and long term advantage in cost savings will be observed compared to the last several years where logic foundries had to deal with multiple patterning) 

Ryzen 2 will be the 3000 series on 7nm, based on the Zen 2 arch. We've had Ryzen 1000 and Ryzen+ 2000 so far. Zen 3 is supposed to be on 7nm+. 

If I remember correctly, Ryzen APU's came out considerably later than Ryzen CPU's did at launch, but while they were based on the Ryzen+ 2000 series, they were still on the 14nm process, not the 12nm process Ryzen+ CPU's were shortly transitioning to. Based on this, PS5 could be Zen 2, but not necessarily on 7nm.

I just meant Samsung isn't the same company as TSMC. I am also not totally convinced of a 2019 launch, that's just what the rumor was based on. Could be 2019 or 2020.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:

Ryzen 2 will be the 3000 series on 7nm, based on the Zen 2 arch. We've had Ryzen 1000 and Ryzen+ 2000 so far. Zen 3 is supposed to be on 7nm+. 

If I remember correctly, Ryzen APU's came out considerably later than Ryzen CPU's did at launch, but while they were based on the Ryzen+ 2000 series, they were still on the 14nm process, not the 12nm process Ryzen+ CPU's were shortly transitioning to. Based on this, PS5 could be Zen 2, but not necessarily on 7nm.

I just meant Samsung isn't the same company as TSMC. I am also not totally convinced of a 2019 launch, that's just what the rumor was based on. Could be 2019 or 2020.

Oh, you'd best believe it's real since Samsung is going to live launch a product based on their logic node utilizing EUV like their next iterations of Galaxy phones ... 

Samsung may not be a pure-play semiconductor foundry like TSMC is but their definitely competing with each other since both of them participate in logic node fabrication ... 



Intrinsic said:

 And if taking apage from the XB1X, 80CUs. At the very least. And if downcocking the GPU too (like they have always done) but alo running at a higher clock tha what we have in the XB1X ten you are looking at a 80CU GPU running at around 1300Mhz (up about 10% from the XB1X GPU clock).

That right there is already putting you at over 14TF. And all this is if we are basing it off the current console GPU architecture which we shouldn't because navi willl be more efficient than polaris.

As for the CPU, if this gen has thought them anything its that they don't need the worlds strongest CPU. All they need is a better CPU than Jaguar and jaguar is a very very very low bar to scale. They could easily throw in a Ryzen 2 based 6 core 12 thread CPU in that SOC and it will be over 5 times more powerful than jaguar. While running at a clock of around 2.5Ghz to 3GHz. 

 

You ad me both. But if as you knopw its aout costs. Will it cost sony less to build in 750GB to 1TB of super fast storage into the PS4 tha put in a user upgradeable SSD? Yes. 

Hmm my math gives 13.3 Teraflops for 80CU clocked at 1300mhz, you need more Mhz.

About the CPU I believe an 8 core zen2 makes most sense with no hyper-threading. It's easier for backwards compatibility and with threading disable it will allow for higher clocks and better yields which will save a lot of money for Sony and microsoft.

My first choice for storage is a 2TB mechanical drive with 128gb super fast soldered flash storage. This gives both the big storage they will need for next-gen and with super fast flash storage it will make up for the lack of Ram increase. My second choice is 1TB ssd drive, the cheapest 1TB ssd drive on newegg.com is 130$ and flash storage prices is expected to drop 50% next year making 1TB ssd easily affordable.



"Donald Trump is the greatest president that god has ever created" - Trumpstyle

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

fatslob-:O said:
EricHiggin said:

Ryzen 2 will be the 3000 series on 7nm, based on the Zen 2 arch. We've had Ryzen 1000 and Ryzen+ 2000 so far. Zen 3 is supposed to be on 7nm+. 

If I remember correctly, Ryzen APU's came out considerably later than Ryzen CPU's did at launch, but while they were based on the Ryzen+ 2000 series, they were still on the 14nm process, not the 12nm process Ryzen+ CPU's were shortly transitioning to. Based on this, PS5 could be Zen 2, but not necessarily on 7nm.

I just meant Samsung isn't the same company as TSMC. I am also not totally convinced of a 2019 launch, that's just what the rumor was based on. Could be 2019 or 2020.

Oh, you'd best believe it's real since Samsung is going to live launch a product based on their logic node utilizing EUV like their next iterations of Galaxy phones ... 

Samsung may not be a pure-play semiconductor foundry like TSMC is but their definitely competing with each other since both of them participate in logic node fabrication ... 

The next exynos chip will be on 8nm is my bet (no EUV) but Samsung will do some marketing BS claiming their AI chip is on 7nm. We shall see very soon.



"Donald Trump is the greatest president that god has ever created" - Trumpstyle

6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!

Around the Network
EricHiggin said:

What about before the PS3 to PS4 transition? What about PS2 to PS3 or PS1 to PS2? Could PS4 have been more powerful? Could they have launched at a $499 price point? Could PS4 have been given a larger case and better cooling? Were PS and MS begging AMD to find time to work with them and not price gouge them? It's not as simple as what can be done in terms of just hardware.

Yes, its not as simple as what can be done with just hardware. But since we are all making educated guesses here, thats the best way to go about it. The begging thing and price gouging thing aren't quantifiable. 

As for launch prices, we ca also make very informed guesses at what to expect with a $400/$500 box.

EricHiggin said: 

With Nvidia and their RTX line, what are the odds AMD has no idea that was in the works, and isn't aiming for something similar? Didn't Cerny mention ray tracing being the holy grail or something like that? What if they try to partially implement that and use a fair amount of resources to push that, instead of everything else they could? Would that also fit under next gen? We all know they like their buzz words. 4k, HDR, so why not ray tracing?

Another question would be how much more powerful than 4.2TF or 6TF is really needed to make a worthwhile jump, in comparison to previous gens? If 4.2TF was worthwhile after just 3 years, why assume they would jump to 14TF after another 3? 10TF would be another 2.3X jump.

Thats actually what I meant by "next gen architecture". There would be no doubt modifications or additions to what makes up each compute unit in the GPU. But those modifications wouldn'gt need to come at the cost of raw old school GPU power. For example, even though the CUs in the PS4 to PS4pro  GPUs doubled from 20 to 40, half of the CUs in the PS4pro are noticeably bigger than other half.   

Lol.... this thing again. Every gen we look at graphics and people say we dont need much for the next gen or that this is as good as its gonna get then boom.... we see horizon or GOW and minds are blown. Anyways, all going from 1.8TF to 4.2TF did just after  3 years was just bump up the resolution. You really don,t think the only dfference between PS4 and PS5 games will be higher a rez do you?

EricHiggin said: 

High yields is quite important for a cheaper high volume product like a console. The larger and more complex, the worse the yields. Making sure the fab can fill the demand that product will have is also as important, whether it be yields or capacity. That last thing PS wants is a PS5 flying off shelves, with people constantly complaining they can't get one. If you forecast 10 million sales, but will only be able to produce 5 million due to the fab, that's a pretty big problem. There are other ways, but the CPU/GPU/APU are the prime factor. It's no coincidence that Pro and slim came out when they shrunk from 28nm to 16nm. Will PS celebrate their 25th anniversary?

This is not how yeilds work. As funny as it may sound, it can only impact price not volume.

 

 



Trumpstyle said:

Hmm my math gives 13.3 Teraflops for 80CU clocked at 1300mhz, you need more Mhz.

About the CPU I believe an 8 core zen2 makes most sense with no hyper-threading. It's easier for backwards compatibility and with threading disable it will allow for higher clocks and better yields which will save a lot of money for Sony and microsoft.

My first choice for storage is a 2TB mechanical drive with 128gb super fast soldered flash storage. This gives both the big storage they will need for next-gen and with super fast flash storage it will make up for the lack of Ram increase. My second choice is 1TB ssd drive, the cheapest 1TB ssd drive on newegg.com is 130$ and flash storage prices is expected to drop 50% next year making 1TB ssd easily affordable.

You are right. Need a little more Mhz. But we are in the ball park and I am already grossly understating what can be possible. 

As for CPU, I don't think BC would be a design consideration to that extent. Reason being that even if they went with 6 cores a 12 threads clocked at 2.5 - 3Ghz, Ryzen 2 architecture is still so much more powerful than the jaguar architecture in the PS4 that they would run circles around the jaguar CPU. And the next CPU being x64 is more important than any number of cores i has as far as BC is concerned.

With regards to storage thats my thinking too. I don't think there will be any kinda hybrid mix and match splution though as that just complicates things. I think they would either solder the storage onto the board or use an M.2 drive. Especially when you consider that as you pointed out nnd flash prices are dropping. By around july 2020 (which is when i expect the PS5 to go into mass production) i wouldnt be surprised if sony can throw in a 1TB sata based M.2 drive for under $30. The real question is if they want to build in future proofing and give their users the option to upgrade their ssd and even put in a nvme drive if they want or if they opt to just save as much money as possible and solder the storage directly onto the PCB. 



Did early (design/tech) leaks of console/controller ever turn out to be true?



Hunting Season is nigh...

atoMsons said:

This doesn't make sense for this argument. Strange blanket statement.

It makes perfect sense.

atoMsons said:

A CPU only provides a bottleneck in severe cases and there isn't one on the PS4, or the XBO.

Depends, I can point to a ton of games where the CPU is a bottleneck on the Xbox One and Playstation 4.
The CPU bottleneck will shift depending on the game itself and sometimes even the scene that is being displayed on the screen.

atoMsons said:

It's majority of the GPU to produce frames for a video game, 3D pipeline rendering.

The CPU assists in preparing those frames you know.

atoMsons said:

A CPU never provides 60 frames. A CPU is terrible at rendering 3D pipelines.

The CPU assists at rendering in many game engines... It was common especially in the 7th gen.
Shall I point out the rendering techniques the CPU was doing?

atoMsons said:

You clearly haven't any idea why a GPU bottleneck happens.

That is a bold assertion.
I was obviously "dumbing down" my rhetoric to make it more palatable for less technical persons that frequent this forum, if you would like me to stop, I would be more than okay to oblige and start being more technically on point?

atoMsons said:

The CPU is responsible for real-time actions, physics, audio, and a few other processes. If the bandwidth can't match that of the GPU, a bottleneck happens and you lose frames that you can actually use. Think of a partially closed dam. All of the sudden the data can't flow fast enough through the dam(CPU) because of a narrow channel. 

Yawn.
The CPU is responsible for more than that... And you should probably list them, otherwise it is a little hypocritical if you are going to complain about my statement not being fully fleshed out and you go and do the same.
 

atoMsons said:

Now, 60 FPS is a GPU issue. That simple. This isn't a E8500 running a 1080 Ti. 

It is a GPU and a CPU issue. - Sometimes even a RAM issue.

atoMsons said:

PS: Flops ARE everything. It gives a good baseline for performance, even outside of similar architecture in comparison. Just not on a 1:1 ratio in that case (per say NVIDIA/RADEON).

Bullshit it's not everything.
FLOPS or Single Precision Floating Point Operations... Is a Theoretical number.

By that admission alone, Flops is irrelevant... Not only are they irrelevant.. But Flops tells us absolutely nothing about the hardwares actual capability, it doesn't tell us the amount of bandwidth a chip has, it's geometry capabilities, it's texturing capabilities, whether it employs any culling to reduce processing load, whether it has various compression schemes like S3TC or Delta Colour Compression, it tells us nothing of it's quarter floating point/double floating point/integer capabilities... It tells us absolutely nothing.
It's just a theoretical number that is calculated by taking the number of pipelines * instructions per clock * clock.

********************

I will try and keep this as simple as possible... But lets take the Geforce 1030.

DDR4: 884.7Gflops.
GDDR5: 942.3Gflops.

That is a 6.5% difference in Gflops... And you said flops is everything.
And yet we get to the crux of the issue. Gflops doesn't tell us everything else about a GPU, only a theoretical component.
In short... The DDR4 version is often less than half the speed of the GDDR5 version.

But don't take my word for it: https://www.techspot.com/review/1658-geforce-gt-1030-abomination/

****************

Or hows about a different scenario? (There are so many examples I can do this all day.)

Hows about we grab the Terascale based Radeon 5870 that operates at 2.72 Teraflops? It should absolutely obliterate the Radeon 7850 that operates at 1.76 Teraflops, right? That's almost a Teraflops difference huh? Both AMD based.
And yet... Again... Flops is irrelevant as the Radeon 7850 often has a slight edge.
But don't take my word for it: https://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/511?vs=549

Do you want some more examples of how unimportant flops are? I mean, I haven't even started to compare nVidia against AMD yet. Flops is everything right?



fatslob-:O said:
EricHiggin said:

Ryzen 2 will be the 3000 series on 7nm, based on the Zen 2 arch. We've had Ryzen 1000 and Ryzen+ 2000 so far. Zen 3 is supposed to be on 7nm+. 

If I remember correctly, Ryzen APU's came out considerably later than Ryzen CPU's did at launch, but while they were based on the Ryzen+ 2000 series, they were still on the 14nm process, not the 12nm process Ryzen+ CPU's were shortly transitioning to. Based on this, PS5 could be Zen 2, but not necessarily on 7nm.

I just meant Samsung isn't the same company as TSMC. I am also not totally convinced of a 2019 launch, that's just what the rumor was based on. Could be 2019 or 2020.

Oh, you'd best believe it's real since Samsung is going to live launch a product based on their logic node utilizing EUV like their next iterations of Galaxy phones ... 

Samsung may not be a pure-play semiconductor foundry like TSMC is but their definitely competing with each other since both of them participate in logic node fabrication ... 

I was referring to your PS5 2019 remark.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.