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How Democrats Went from Opposing Illegal Immigration to Supporting it.

Forums - Politics Discussion - How Democrats Went from Opposing Illegal Immigration to Supporting it.

the-pi-guy said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Just doing news searches on the topic show me its likely over a dozen and its unlikely they catch everyone doing it. Not really look to debate it, lets just agree it happens.

Pretty much anything that isn't against the laws of physics happens.  So it's pointless.  There's absolutely no evidence that it's a widespread issue.  

https://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/blog-post/numbers-voter-fraud

Mr Puggsly said:

Every time I see a voter fraud story it tends to be for left leaning support. Not sure how I'm missing all this republican support in the news. If true, democrats should make that known. But then democrats would have to admit it exist.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/01/0-000002-percent-of-all-the-ballots-cast-in-the-2016-election-were-fraudulent/?utm_term=.6e6052e3aaf0

In 2016, there were 4 people arrested for voter fraud.  None of them voted for Democrats.  

Of course, Democrats admit voter fraud happens. If you think they don't, you're being lied to.  The argument that Democrats make is that it's so incredibly rare that fixing the problem costs more than having it go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHFOwlMCdto

Mr Puggsly said:

Voter IDs get attacked as voter suppression. But I noticed recently some states with voter IDs have the highest voter turn outs in the country. I really don't buy the argument that it hurts minorities, unless you're an illegal minority I guess.

 

Voter ID Laws's aren't suppression, the problem is ensuring that those ID's are available to everyone citizen who should have the right to vote.  

Mr Puggsly said:

Democrats wanting to give criminals voting rights is because they know criminals are among their base. They just don't want to admit their true intentions.

I didn't deny that Democrats wanted to give criminals voting rights, what I said is it has nothing to do with voter fraud.  

Democrats want to give criminals voting rights, because they are citizens and should be allowed to participate.  

Are you suggesting democrats don't want to deal with voter fraud because its a waste of resources? Its refreshing to see them care about spending. Any who, I'm glad we moved the discussion from it not being a thing to not a serious thing.

Right, we don't disagree on the voter ID thing. But the left likes to claim even getting a state ID is too much of an obstacle for some people. They will always fight voter IDs.

I was using the criminal voting thing as an example of dems looking wherever they can for more support. I guess they find that easier than appealing to the working class like they used to. And again, they waste more time attacking people that support republicans as opposed to trying to win their support.



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Mr Puggsly said:
sundin13 said:

But why? Why is helping people and restoring rights to them egregious?That is like saying "This person is horrible because they gave to charity because of tax breaks". They still gave to charity and helped people, I don't really see why I should care what their reasoning is, especially when it is based solely on an assumption...

Especially when, by that logic, Republicans are just removing rights from people because they know it will help them get power.

I don't think giving to charity is play to keep a party in power.

I don't think taking voting rights from criminals was a move to keep the republicans in power.

You seem to misunderstand metaphors. My point was that attacking someone for doing a good thing for a selfish reason is fairly silly, especially when you are comparing it to doing a bad thing for a selfish reason. Either way, you have Democrats supporting the restoration of possibly the most important right within a democracy to a large group of taxpaying individuals whose rights should be better represented within our government.

And once again, all of the evidence to support these assertions of motive seems to boil down to "I think" or "I don't think", which does little to actual support a discussion.



illegals do not make even .1% of the votes in this country and those that do that get caught anyway. Republicans need to quit this BS while they yell fake news daily



Trash PragerU video. This showed up in my recommendations on Youtube. These people have no shame.



325 million US citizens

12 million illegals

3% of the population



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jason1637 said:
iron_megalith said:

I'm not white. Not unless you assumed that I was.

Immigration is a touchy subject for me because I am a legal immigrant who waited for 10 years to be legally processed. And yet the democrats are willing to cuddle illegal immigrants for possible votes.

10 years? Why did it take so long?

Mainly retrogression. During Obama's admin they clamped down on immigrant applications. Then we got hit by multiple issues due to their change of procedures and protocols. My father getting diagnosed with cancer on the 8th year of waiting for our petition. This made us adjust our immigrant application to separate my application as I my application was tied with my father. Basically a lot of complicated stuff.

My mother was in United States for 10 years all by herself. It was painful and depressing at times but I did not hate the immigration policy changes. I always understood that applying to be an immigrant is not my right but a privilege that will be granted upon me.

If you're surprised about 10 years, there are those who waited more than I. So when people say that tougher immigration is only an agenda of a xenophobic white man, think twice. I'm a native South East Asian legal immigrant who wants a fair process for everyone. People like Soundwave who parrot this dumb agenda spit on the hardships of law abiding people like me who faced a lot of hardships just to get in legally. Taking a risky journey on a small boat crossing the border illegally doesn't put them above us.

I do wish to bring up a trivial experience. I've even encountered some co-workers of mine who are Hispanic legal immigrants who came from South America. To my surprise they are also pissed at the democrats tone towards demonizing tougher immigration enforcement.

Last edited by iron_megalith - on 31 October 2018

Mr Puggsly said:
Machiavellian said:

The thing is there never is really any need these days for Proof.  As long as people feel this is happening then politicians will take advantage of those perception or create those perceptions.  This is the reason why we are in this thread today because of feelings.  I feel this is happening or I heard from someone, Youtube, tweet, political rally or statement.

When you really think about it you see how the current Republicans absolutely love this caravan of people coming to the US.  Nothing plays better for them then to make statements it's the Dems funding them.  Yep, the Dems is funding a caravan of people to illegal come into the US and somehow find a way to vote during elections.  It definitely plays to the fears of their base very well even if there isn't a shred of proof to it.  If that scenario doesn't work then they will proclaim they are trying to get here birth some babies and then those kids can vote Democrat in 18 years.

Since the popular vote doesn't matter, you really have to think about how this really plays out.

The debate isn't really whether or not its happening. Most agree its happening, but argue just not at a significant level.

Oh, I agree the republicans are benefitting from the caravan. It also puts the democrats in a weird position because they seem to be approving of it or ignoring it because they know independent voters generally are not happy about it. I'm not arguing the people on the caravan will vote, but it supports the narrative illegal immigration into this country is a mess.

The popular vote simply doesn't matter when voting for a president. Because we have a system that gives all states a say, but it still gives large states the most power. People ignore in the electoral college the democrats essentially start with the support of states like California, New York and numerous other states which is a lot of points in the electoral college. While republicans actually have to appeal to the working class if they hope to win the electoral college. Obama ran as a moderate and dominated. Hillary ran as left wing hack and got crushed in the electoral college.

However in local elections via the popular vote people can still vote for mayors, governors, senators, house representatives and other appointments that shape sates and the country. People actually want illegals voting in local elections and dems have been vocal about that. 

This caravan doesn't really prove anything as far as illegal immigration.  The only thing it proves is that desperate people will go to a place they feel offer a better life.  Currently we have no clue how many will seek asylum or will try to illegally cross.  The only thing we can infer from this caravan is that its coming.  The talking point from Trump is that everyone is a criminal, gang thug, terrorist you name it, It still plays to his base.

Even on local level, the most progressive city like Sans Fran do not allow illegals to vote on a city or state level.  Instead they can only vote on school board elections and only if they have a child who was born in the US.  There is no state that allows illegals to vote in state elections.  As I stated, its the fear that is made and flamed then any actual facts.  You can take the President comment from one of his rallies where he proclaimed that their are states allowing illegals to vote.  He made it ambiguous enough so that he wasn't totally lying but left it so that people would believe him without  fact checking and believe its on a state or federal level.  It's a very common political tactic especially when you know the people will just take your word for it without checking facts or context.  

Also think about what you are suggesting.  You are suggesting that the millions of illegals are here thinking about illegally voting to do what.  Most are scared of ever being found out they are here illegally and voting is the last thing on their mind.  The though process or even this caravan of a thousand souls is looking to illegally come into the US and find some way to vote illegally so they can do what.  At the end of the day, all this does is play to your fears.  Its like a movie director who make the squeaky noise, turn off the lights and let your imagination fill in the blank even though their is nothing there.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 01 November 2018

Ignorance is a choice, yet people still choose ignorance lmao, Americans seem to forget some of the fundamental principles this country was founded on.




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Mr Puggsly said:

Are you suggesting democrats don't want to deal with voter fraud because its a waste of resources? Its refreshing to see them care about spending. Any who, I'm glad we moved the discussion from it not being a thing to not a serious thing.

Again, I never said it didn't exist.  I said it was a minuscule number.  

Democrats don't like to waste resources.

Mr Puggsly said:

Right, we don't disagree on the voter ID thing. But the left likes to claim even getting a state ID is too much of an obstacle for some people. They will always fight voter IDs.

I think it's strange that a lot of rightists who tend to think that government usually can't do things right, have immense trust for the government to do things right when it comes to voter id laws.  

Because it can be a challenge for people:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html?utm_term=.58226ceab9af

"For Settles to get one of those, his name has to match his birth certificate — and it doesn’t. In 1964, when he was 14, his mother married and changed his last name. After Texas passed a new voter-ID law, officials told Settles he had to show them his name-change certificate from 1964 to qualify for a new identification card to vote.

So with the help of several lawyers, Settles tried to find it, searching records in courthouses in the D.C. area, where he grew up. But they could not find it. To obtain a new document changing his name to the one he has used for 51 years, Settles has to go to court, a process that would cost him more than $250 — more than he is willing to pay.

“It has been a bureaucratic nightmare,” said Settles, 65, a retired engineer. “The intent of this law is to suppress the vote. I feel like I am not wanted in this state.”"

Mr Puggsly said:

I was using the criminal voting thing as an example of dems looking wherever they can for more support. I guess they find that easier than appealing to the working class like they used to. And again, they waste more time attacking people that support republicans as opposed to trying to win their support.

How are Dem's not appealing to the working class?  

A lot of leftists hate on Democrats for not doing anything for black people, and only doing things for white Americans.  A lot of rightists hate on Democrats for not helping white Americans, and think they pander to black people.  They just can't win.  

Criminals aren't a big enough demographic to help them.  Your belief doesn't even make sense.  



The_Yoda said:

325 million US citizens

12 million illegals

3% of the population

The high estimates are actually closer to 20 million.



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