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I am very sad.

Forums - Politics Discussion - I am very sad.

morenoingrato said:

Your lack of interest in politics does not negate the underlying causes of Bolsonaro's rise in the polls. The recession was due to Dilma's and to a certain extent Lula's mismanagement, a bubble which at some point had to burst. Blaming it on Temer is ridiculous. It is as saying the 2008/2009 recession was Obama'a fault.

Didn't the unemployment in Brazil skyrocket in the past few years? And as a consequence, crime as well? Bolsonaro's sexist and homophobic remarks are inexcusable and I will not defend him for them, but perhaps it's not *only* about social issues and rather frustrated Brazilians worried about their standard of living and their families?

He might also have authoritarian dreams but Brazil is not Nazi Germany, and his margin of win will likely be in the single digits.

Yes, of course. Brazil is a total mess right now, if it was fine we wouldn't be nearly electing a fascist president. But I simply can't be concerned about corruption or even unemployment right now... those things are the result of a mishandled economy, and they are a shame, but they don't violate human rights. I don't care how corrupt PT is, in fact I don't care about PT at all. What I care about is peace, and if someone's willing to threaten it, then I'm against that person. PT isn't against peace, so, end of story there.

Obviously, this debate really shouldn't be happening if people could vote decently. There were several other candidates with better proposals, without being either corrupt or extremist, but of course, those aren't the ones that get the most votes. So it is down to corruption vs. fascism.

 

Edit: might I add, even if Haddad wins the election, which would be something to celebrate quite a bit, I'm still likely going away from here, because the country will be a mess regardless. Right now it's just about trying to make it a peaceful mess rather than an openly violent one.



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I guess maybe I should have put this in general discussion though, so people would focus more on the "sad" and less on the "politics". In any case, it's very late here, I'm gonna try to get some sleep.



mZuzek said:
morenoingrato said:

Your lack of interest in politics does not negate the underlying causes of Bolsonaro's rise in the polls. The recession was due to Dilma's and to a certain extent Lula's mismanagement, a bubble which at some point had to burst. Blaming it on Temer is ridiculous. It is as saying the 2008/2009 recession was Obama'a fault.

Didn't the unemployment in Brazil skyrocket in the past few years? And as a consequence, crime as well? Bolsonaro's sexist and homophobic remarks are inexcusable and I will not defend him for them, but perhaps it's not *only* about social issues and rather frustrated Brazilians worried about their standard of living and their families?

He might also have authoritarian dreams but Brazil is not Nazi Germany, and his margin of win will likely be in the single digits.

Yes, of course. Brazil is a total mess right now, if it was fine we wouldn't be nearly electing a fascist president. But I simply can't be concerned about corruption or even unemployment right now... those things are the result of a mishandled economy, and they are a shame, but they don't violate human rights. I don't care how corrupt PT is, in fact I don't care about PT at all. What I care about is peace, and if someone's willing to threaten it, then I'm against that person. PT isn't against peace, so, end of story there.

Obviously, this debate really shouldn't be happening if people could vote decently. There were several other candidates with better proposals, without being either corrupt or extremist, but of course, those aren't the ones that get the most votes. So it is down to corruption vs. fascism.

 

Edit: might I add, even if Haddad wins the election, which would be something to celebrate quite a bit, I'm still likely going away from here, because the country will be a mess regardless. Right now it's just about trying to make it a peaceful mess rather than an openly violent one.

And here's the kicker: whereas you can't be concerned about corruption or unemployment, there are millions who do or were more severely affected by those issues. You may be 'sad' about some potential, speculative fascism based on unhelpful comparisons to Nazi Germany, but this is just people looking out for themselves and not imagining some radical absolute worst case scenario because they dislike the candidate's personality.

Come 10 years, Brazil will be the same as always and Bolsonaro will likely have been washed away by the winds of change.



o/p mentions the UK, where I live, and I pretty much guarantee that everything you've heard is BS. Swing to the right? Antisemitism institutionalised in our largest political party? Huge spike in racial crime? Sorry, just not true.

I don't know how things are in Brazil but when the views of the media are out of step with voting results they turn to scare stories to try to engage the fears of voters who sympathise with their standpoint. Of the 62% in his town who voted for this guy, how many are violent thugs and how many are just ordinary people looking for a change? The sky hasn't exactly fallen with Trump as president of the US: like him or loathe him, life goes on. Yet a lot of people acted like he'd be coming for their daughters & wives.

Follow the news less ... you’ll be happier and no more ignorant.

Last edited by Sordel - on 10 October 2018

If you're not leaving VGC you should at least consider leaving the country that tries to kill you. There are still some countries that haven't become shitholes where you could get shot at any moment. Ironically those are also the countries with the most open borders.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

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well brazil needs to allow guns for none felons as the criminals all have them and are robbing people left and right.



Amnesia said:
"He's racist, homophobic, sexist, highly religious,"

I could not explain that shortly, even heavily with my english, but when I read such a thing, I immediately trust the person responding to this description.
I am french, so I am vaccinated against this kind of description. These are exactly the adjective that we use to discredite someone. You just forgot "antisemit" and we are complete.

Bolsonaro is so blatantly racist, homophobic, sexist and highly religious that it's really hard to believe if you're an outsider. It's not one of those cases of people overexaggerating or calling the person racist, homophobic and sexist just because they don't like them. I'll give you a few examples:

Racism - "I was at a quilombo (places previously inhabited by slaves escaping, but now inhabited by their descendants). The slightest afro-descendant weighed 7 arrobas (230 pounds, measurement used to weigh cattle). They don't do anything. I don't think they even serve for procreation anymore."

Racism - "Has anyone ever seen any Japanese begging? It's a race that has shame in its face."

Racism - When asked by Preta Gil, a black woman, about what he'd do if a son of his fell in love with a black woman, he said "Preta, I’m not going to discuss promiscuity with anyone. I don't run that risk because my children are well educated and they don't live in the promiscuous environment such as is, unfortunately, yours."

Lying about history to excuse racism - "What debt [of slavery]? I never enslaved anyone in my life. Look, if you really look at history, the Portuguese didn’t even step foot in Africa. The blacks themselves turned over the slaves."

Xenophobia - "The scum of the world is arriving in Brazil, as if we didn’t have enough problems to resolve." (Talking about immigrants, mostly Senegalese, Haitian, Iranian, Bolivian, Venezuelan and Syrian)

Homophobia - After same-sex marriage was legalized, he said "It's a mess. The next steps are the adoption of children and the legalization of paedophilia."

Homophobia - "I would be incapable of loving a gay son. I wouldn't be a hypocrite. I prefer that he die in an accident than show up with a moustachioed man."

Homophobia - "If one's son begins acting kind of gay, then when he is spanked he'll change his behaviour."

Homophobia - "I will not fight against it nor discriminate, but if I see two men kissing on the street, I'll beat them up."

Homophobia - When asked about gay rights, he said "So let’s respect the pedophile’s right to have sex with a 2-year-old?"

Homophobia and misogyny - "Over time, due to liberal habit, drugs, with women also working, the number of homosexuals has really increased. I also tend to say if your son starts hanging out with certain people with a certain behaviour, he'll adopt that sort of behaviour. He'll think it's normal."

Misogyny - He said "I would not rape you. You don’t merit that." to a congresswoman, and then when asked about it on an interview he said "She doesn't deserve it [to be raped] because she's very bad, because she's very ugly. She's not my type, I'd never rape her. I'm not a rapist, but if I was, I wouldn't rape her because she doesn't deserve it."

Misogyny - "I have five children. There were four men, the fifth I got weak and it came out a woman."

Dictatorial behaviour - "The only mistake of the dictatorship was torturing and not killing."

Dictatorial behaviour - "We're going to shoot all the PT supporters in Acre." (PT is the opposing party)

Against any minority - "Since we are a Christian country, God above all. This history of a secular state doesn't exist, no. The state is Christian and the minority that is against it can leave. Let's make a country for the majority! The minority must bow to the majority. Law must exist to defend the majority! The minority suits itself [to the law] or just disappears."

High religiosity - "Brazil above all, God above everyone." (that's his campaign motto)

Those are just some few examples of what this monster has said throughout the almost 30 years he has been working as a politician. See how it's not an exaggeration to call him racist, homophobic and sexist?



G O O D B O I

Excuse me for being that insensitive, ignorant American - but isn't Brazil already in god awful shape, economically and in terms of street violence? I mean, how much worse can it possibly get?

It's a bummer because that's actually a place I was considering visiting for a time but based on what I'm hearing these days of the happenings down there I'm starting to think I should stay far away.



morenoingrato said: 

Your lack of interest in politics does not negate the underlying causes of Bolsonaro's rise in the polls. The recession was due to Dilma's and to a certain extent Lula's mismanagement, a bubble which at some point had to burst. Blaming it on Temer is ridiculous. It is as saying the 2008/2009 recession was Obama'a fault.

Didn't the unemployment in Brazil skyrocket in the past few years? And as a consequence, crime as well? Bolsonaro's sexist and homophobic remarks are inexcusable and I will not defend him for them, but perhaps it's not *only* about social issues and rather frustrated Brazilians worried about their standard of living and their families?

He might also have authoritarian dreams but Brazil is not Nazi Germany, and his margin of win will likely be in the single digits.

While not every authoritarian government is going to be like the Nazis, there are certainly some parallels in the rise of many authoritarian governments especially in democratic countries. Be they on the right or left, they are typically born out of chaos, typically when there is social and/or economic unrest (the two are often tied together). Look at the economic woes and the political chaos the Weimer Republic was in before they elected the far-right Nazis (the rise of Fascism in Italy is another such example). Going beyond the Nazis, you can also see similar parallels in the Russian Empire prior to the rise of the far-left Bolsheviks (the rise of Chavez in Venezuela can also be attributed to similar things) . Chaos and economic downturns fuels anger which in turn fuels the election of angry radicals (many of whom tend not to be so democratic). Also, I very much doubt the margin of the victory of these leaders matters much in the end so long as they are given the strings of power. If Bolsonaro really wants to start a military coup and manages to get the military behind him, then in practice that is all he needs to at the very least dissolve civilian democracy in Brazil (whether that would lead to him effectively consolidating his power, or throw Brazil into further chaos as the left and right start to clash on streets would remain to be seen).



Sordel said:
o/p mentions thw UK, where I live, and I pretty much guarantee that everything you've heard is BS. Swing to the right? Antisemitism institutionalised in our largest political party? Huge spike in racial crime? Sorry, just not true.

I don't know how things are in Brazil but when the views of the media are out of step with voting results they turn to scare stories to try to engage the fears of voters who sympathise with their standpoint. Of the 62% in his town who voted for this guy, how many are violent thugs and how many are just ordinary people looking for a change? The sky hasn't exactly fallen with Trump as president of the US: like him or loathe him, life goes on. Yet a lot of people acted like he'd be coming for their daughters & wives.

Follow the news less ... you’ll be happier and no more ignorant.

This.

The whole first posting and the typical labels ("racist, homophobic, sexist") that are nowadays being used by the media to discredit people suggests that the OP has been exposed to heavy media propaganda.