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Forums - General Discussion - ‘Rape Culture’ Is A MYTH | Change My Mind

SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

you haven't posted anything here that i was unaware of

have you taken into consideration that the ratio of men to women in prison is 90% to 10%? do the math and get back to me

OK, let's do the math.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (PDF), there were a total of 20,500 victims of inmate-on-inmate rape in 2011.  This is described as, "unwanted contacts with another inmate that involved oral, anal, vaginal penetration, hand jobs, and other sexual acts." That includes women.  So if we use your 10% female figure, you get 18,450 male victims in prison and jail.

That puts my verifiable data at 18,450 male rapes in prison/jail compared to 90,000 female rapes outside of prison/jail.

I have the statistics, I have the sources, I have the math.  What do you have?

you divided the figure you cited before by 10

"The 216,000 figure is sexual assaults (including the 69,800 rapes) and it includes women."

and you are defining rape and sexual assault as the same thing

" This is described as, "unwanted contacts with another inmate that involved oral, anal, vaginal penetration, hand jobs, and other sexual acts.""



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SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

Speaking of math, have we figured out the percentage of Reddit threads that are made up by the one thread mentioned in number 18?

Not sure how the percentage of 1 thread to all Reddit threads is really relevant.  You're hung up on it like it proves something.  What, precisely, is your point?

My point is that the problem of false rape allegations can't be added to the list seemingly because false rape allegations are rare but number 18 can stay there when number 18 makes reference to a single, unnamed reddit thread.

"18. Reddit threads dedicated to men causing women pain during sex (I’m not going to give the thread credence by linking to it)."

Like my previous post established, there are currently a little over 1.2 million subreddits on Reddit.

ASSUMING each one of these subreddits contains one thread (I think it's safe to assume the majority of subreddits have >1 thread but let's give the benefit of the doubt), the math looks something like this.

1/1200000 or .00000083%

.00000083% of Reddit threads (it's actually less than this since we're assuming each subreddit only has one thread in our calculation) was deemed worthy of an entry on the list. However, tackling the problem that "2-8%" of rape allegations are false as stated by number 21 isn't worthy of an entry.

Last I checked, the minimum figure of 2% >> .00000083%. Proportionally speaking, false allegations are a greater problem than Reddit threads that talk about men inflicting pain on women during sex.

SpokenTruth said:


When you get me numbers of false accusations that challenge and rival these, then we can add them to the list of rape culture problems.  Until then, no.

2% >> .00000083%

I don't understand where the issue is. I'm not asking for entries in the list to be removed. I'm simply asking for an addition that points out the potential to weaponize an accusation because there are gullible people in the world like Shaun King.



KLAMarine said:

1/1200000 or .00000083%

.00000083% of Reddit threads (it's actually less than this since we're assuming each subreddit only has one thread in our calculation) was deemed worthy of an entry on the list. However, tackling the problem that "2-8%" of rape allegations are false as stated by number 21 isn't worthy of an entry.

Last I checked, the minimum figure of 2% >> .00000083%. Proportionally speaking, false allegations are a greater problem than Reddit threads that talk about men inflicting pain on women during sex.

First of all, this math is nonsense.

Second of all, I think you are kind of missing the point.

The math is nonsense because they are unequal comparisons. These false rape accusations aren't reddit threads, so utilizing percentages is an awful way to demonstrate the comparison. If you say "90% of people who are hit by falling space debris die" and "10% of people who are bitten by a shark die", it wouldn't really be valid to assume that space debris is more likely to kill you if one person dies of space debris every 10 years and 10 people die from shark bites every year. Obviously the numbers are hypothetical, but utilizing percentages in this way is just nonsense.

But beyond that, I don't think the point of pointing out that subreddit is to say "look at how big of a problem Reddit is", it is simply a means of anecdotally demonstrating unhealthy views towards sex and towards women which are accepted by sites like reddit. It is not meant to serve as the point in and of itself, it is merely meant as one one tiny piece of the whole picture of how unhealthy views towards women are handled in our culture. Personally I don't find that singular piece of evidence entirely compelling, but it is far from the only piece of evidence demonstrating the normalization (and in some cases, the fetishization) of rape. Simply waving around context-less numbers does nothing to actually argue this point or support your own (which, by the way, the point you are trying to make is not mutually exclusive with the point that you seem to be trying to refute, so holding them against each other is virtually meaningless).



sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

1/1200000 or .00000083%

.00000083% of Reddit threads (it's actually less than this since we're assuming each subreddit only has one thread in our calculation) was deemed worthy of an entry on the list. However, tackling the problem that "2-8%" of rape allegations are false as stated by number 21 isn't worthy of an entry.

Last I checked, the minimum figure of 2% >> .00000083%. Proportionally speaking, false allegations are a greater problem than Reddit threads that talk about men inflicting pain on women during sex.

First of all, this math is nonsense.

Second of all, I think you are kind of missing the point.

The math is nonsense because they are unequal comparisons. These false rape accusations aren't reddit threads

I agree. False rape accusations are worse.

sundin13 said:

so utilizing percentages is an awful way to demonstrate the comparison. If you say "90% of people who are hit by falling space debris die" and "10% of people who are bitten by a shark die", it wouldn't really be valid to assume that space debris is more likely to kill you if one person dies of space debris every 10 years and 10 people die from shark bites every year. Obviously the numbers are hypothetical, but utilizing percentages in this way is just nonsense.

I don't think it's an awful way at all. It's a great way to show how pervasive something is: how pervasive are false rape allegations? 2-8% of rape allegations are false according to the list SpokenTruth provided. How pervasive are "men causing women pain during sex" threads on Reddit? The list uses the word "threads" which is plural but only alludes to one such thread existing which it refused to link to.

Assuming the thread exists, per my calculations, .00000083% of Reddit threads are "dedicated to men causing women pain during sex" and that's me being generous.

In conclusion, false accusations are more pervasive in the realm of accusations than threads "dedicated to men causing women pain during sex" in the realm of Reddit if the information the list provides is factual.

sundin13 said:

But beyond that, I don't think the point of pointing out that subreddit is to say "look at how big of a problem Reddit is", it is simply a means of anecdotally demonstrating unhealthy views towards sex and towards women which are accepted by sites like reddit. It is not meant to serve as the point in and of itself, it is merely meant as one one tiny piece of the whole picture of how unhealthy views towards women are handled in our culture. Personally I don't find that singular piece of evidence entirely compelling, but it is far from the only piece of evidence demonstrating the normalization (and in some cases, the fetishization) of rape. Simply waving around context-less numbers does nothing to actually argue this point or support your own (which, by the way, the point you are trying to make is not mutually exclusive with the point that you seem to be trying to refute, so holding them against each other is virtually meaningless).

I don't recall trying to refute a point, what I'm trying to do is argue for the inclusion of a 26th entry to SpokenTruth's rape culture list.



SpokenTruth said: 
KLAMarine said: 

 

I don't think it's an awful way at all. It's a great way to show how pervasive something is: how pervasive are false rape allegations? 2-8% of rape allegations are false according to the list SpokenTruth provided. How pervasive are "men causing women pain during sex" threads on Reddit? The list uses the word "threads" which is plural but only alludes to one such thread existing which it refused to link to.

Assuming the thread exists, per my calculations, .00000083% of Reddit threads are "dedicated to men causing women pain during sex" and that's me being generous.

In conclusion, false accusations are more pervasive in the realm of accusations than threads "dedicated to men causing women pain during sex" in the realm of Reddit if the information the list provides is factual.

You completely missed his point.  He's telling you that you should be looking at the bigger picture rather than isolating this one thread.  Further, you are asking for a percentage of total threads dedicated to "men causing women pain during sex" against all threads.  A better idea would be to find the percentage of all threads that are sexually demeaning, sexually degrading or sexually negative towards women against all threads.

This single thread listed ("men causing women pain during sex") was provided as an example of the types of threads that perpetuate the problem.

Do you have a link to the "men causing women pain during sex" thread? What about a count of the threads "that are sexually demeaning, sexually degrading or sexually negative towards women"?

SpokenTruth said: 

 

false allegations are a greater problem than Reddit threads that talk about men inflicting pain on women during sex.

Of course false allegations are a greater problem than this one single thread. But you are staring at an example of a tree and ignoring the forest it is in.

 

By the way, your 26th entry will never make it on the list for the simple fact that false allegations exist because rape itself exists.  The more prevalent rape is, the more prevalent false accusations are. They are a symptom of rape culture, not an agent of perpetuation of it.

I disagree. False allegations, when exposed, do terrible harm to legitimate victims of rape. Credibility of rape/sexual assault allegations take a hit and the existence of false allegations are the reason why a degree of skepticism is the usual approach to any accusation. You say they're "not an agent of perpetuation of it" but I think the skepticism due to false allegations might prevent a legitimate rape victim from coming forward with their story.

False allegations are a serious issue not only for innocent parties but to true victims as well.



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SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:

Do you have a link to the "men causing women pain during sex" thread? What about a count of the threads "that are sexually demeaning, sexually degrading or sexually negative towards women"?

I disagree. False allegations, when exposed, do terrible harm to legitimate victims of rape. Credibility of rape/sexual assault allegations take a hit and the existence of false allegations are the reason why a degree of skepticism is the usual approach to any accusation. You say they're "not an agent of perpetuation of it" but I think the skepticism due to false allegations might prevent a legitimate rape victim from coming forward with their story.

False allegations are a serious issue not only for innocent parties but to true victims as well.

Did you just ask me for a link to a thread I said I wasn't going to link to?

"18. Reddit threads dedicated to men causing women pain during sex (I’m not going to give the thread credence by linking to it)."

Yes. If you still don't want to, fair enough.

How about a count of threads "that are sexually demeaning, sexually degrading or sexually negative towards women"? Do we have a count?

SpokenTruth said:

And did you forget where I said false allegations are serious and should be dealt with? You even acknowledged that I never  said, implied or meant that they should be disregarded but it's as though you are trying to argue with me that I disagree with something that I don't.  I never said they don't do harm.  I never said they don't impair the credibility of valid rapes.

I'm aware you believe false allegations are bad but I was making the point that they're worse than bad. They hurt the innocent and they can hurt legitimate victims when exposed. They might even aid actual perpetrators.

SpokenTruth said:

And no, the skepticism of valid rapes borne out of false accusations is far outweighed by the pure wholesale disbelief, incredulity, shame, vehement hate, fear of retaliation and humiliation, etc....   Further stated, if false accusations account for even as great as 8% of all accusations (the highest rate given by a credible source), then is it not a completely irrational stance on the part of men for skepticism to be the immediate response? 

No. Skepticism is simply acknowledgement that the truthfulness of a claim is unknown. Nothing about this approach is irrational.

Do you propose an alternative approach?

SpokenTruth said:

That means 8 in 100 but are false but men are viewing them as though only 8 in 100 are actually valid rapes.  That's irrational and I sincerely hope this is not how you view rape allegations.

What men are doing this?

Last edited by KLAMarine - on 13 October 2018

Not believing women who say they were taken advantage of is kind of like beliving Jaws as an accurate representation of great white shark behaviour.

Sure, there are attacks by great white sharks so it makes sense to be cautious around them, but they're not so frequent you should kill all sharks.

Just like how, sure, there are women who falsely claim to have been raped to destroy someone, but that doesn't mean that people should be acting like an overwhelming majority of people supporting #MeToo are just doing it for fame.

No matter what the statistic, no matter what the situation, there will always be outliers. Using a few shark attacks to justify the slaughter of a whole species is in many ways similar to trying to devalue what these women say just because you heard about a friend who was accused of rape but denies it. People attacking women for coming out against people like Harvey Weinstein and others is disgusting. Yes, I agree that you are 'innocent until proven guilty', and I hate the idea that hearsay can ruin someone, but proving you were raped is immensely difficult and that's exactly why so few charges are successfully filed.

This whole thread upsets me and disgusts me. No idea why I'm posting in it at all.

Modern internet extremists are the worst.



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Runa216 said:
Not believing women who say they were taken advantage of is kind of like beliving Jaws as an accurate representation of great white shark behaviour.

Sure, there are attacks by great white sharks so it makes sense to be cautious around them, but they're not so frequent you should kill all sharks.

Just like how, sure, there are women who falsely claim to have been raped to destroy someone, but that doesn't mean that people should be acting like an overwhelming majority of people supporting #MeToo are just doing it for fame.

No matter what the statistic, no matter what the situation, there will always be outliers. Using a few shark attacks to justify the slaughter of a whole species is in many ways similar to trying to devalue what these women say just because you heard about a friend who was accused of rape but denies it. People attacking women for coming out against people like Harvey Weinstein and others is disgusting. Yes, I agree that you are 'innocent until proven guilty', and I hate the idea that hearsay can ruin someone, but proving you were raped is immensely difficult and that's exactly why so few charges are successfully filed.

This whole thread upsets me and disgusts me. No idea why I'm posting in it at all.

Modern internet extremists are the worst.

"Not believing women who say they were taken advantage of is kind of like beliving Jaws as an accurate representation of great white shark behaviour."

>I believe evidence, not allegation alone.



Runa216 said:
Not believing women who say they were taken advantage of is kind of like beliving Jaws as an accurate representation of great white shark behaviour.

Sure, there are attacks by great white sharks so it makes sense to be cautious around them, but they're not so frequent you should kill all sharks.

Just like how, sure, there are women who falsely claim to have been raped to destroy someone, but that doesn't mean that people should be acting like an overwhelming majority of people supporting #MeToo are just doing it for fame.

No matter what the statistic, no matter what the situation, there will always be outliers. Using a few shark attacks to justify the slaughter of a whole species is in many ways similar to trying to devalue what these women say just because you heard about a friend who was accused of rape but denies it. People attacking women for coming out against people like Harvey Weinstein and others is disgusting. Yes, I agree that you are 'innocent until proven guilty', and I hate the idea that hearsay can ruin someone, but proving you were raped is immensely difficult and that's exactly why so few charges are successfully filed.

This whole thread upsets me and disgusts me. No idea why I'm posting in it at all.

Modern internet extremists are the worst.

I agree that potential victims deserve understanding and to be believed in. I agree that those that attack potential victims are pretty horrible people.

However, one cannot discount that there are two potential victims here. A potential victim of rape/sexual harassment AND a potential victim of a false rape/sexual misconduct allegation. Going by your logic of “no matter the statistic” one cannot discount either as a possibility

That is why I, personally, go by a “do no harm to either” stance when an allegation is made. Which is basically:

Yes. Have law enforcement treat the accusation seriously.

Yes. Educate everyone to be able to identify what a sexual assault is and to seek a rape kit ASAP (but for Pete’s sake, also teach them to separate regret from rape, those are two different things). This is critical. The sooner they act, the better the chances of some kind of solid physical evidence to be found and catalogued.

Yes. Ask for a thorough investigation if sufficient evidence is found to do so. Tho if an accusation is absurd, maybe not waste time of law enforcement?

Yes. Encourage victims to step forward by not shaming them and by treating them with gentleness and support.

No to calling potential victims liars and condemning them. People who do this are just horrible human beings.

But (until they are proven guilty):

No to guilt via social media.

No to calls for punishment without proof.

No to calls for ruining their lives until they are proven guilty.

No to attacks on their families, careers and their lives.

No to hysterics, harassment, hypocrisy and hate.

No to celebrities/media condemning and trashing them when they haven’t been found guilty yet. Which I find  (for the celebs/media and the viewing sheep cheering them on) to be an absolute act of hypocrisy.

And with an absolute x100000 and all caps and bold and !!!! (and however else one can emphasize this): No to using potential sexual assault victims as freaking political weapons. I find this absolutely disgusting, As it takes advantage of those who were taken advantage of or destroys the life of the innocent. All for political gain. All to trick people to get their votes.

If we were not there and we we do not know the truth to what happened, don’t you think it is extremely arrogant and hypocritical and a bit dumb of us to condemn one side or the other when either side could be a victim? We are not the judges here. We should pursue truth above all else and try to do as little harm as possible in its pursuit. Let justice happen when (and sadly, if) the truth is revealed.

Please bear in mind that my entire tirade above is NOT an accusation on you (as I am not saying that you did anything of the above) but is simply my personal misgivings on the toxic extremes of both sides of the debate.

Last edited by DrDoomz - on 13 October 2018

Runa216 said:
Not believing women who say they were taken advantage of is kind of like beliving Jaws as an accurate representation of great white shark behaviour.

This.
Also... Jaws was filmed here... And Great White Shark cage diving is a big tourist attraction for this town... They aren't exactly cuddly creatures... But they were very badly portrayed in that film for obvious dramatical reasons.



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