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Forums - Politics Discussion - Should Brett Kavanaugh SCOTUS Nomination Continue?

 

Should Brett Kavanaugh SCOTUS Nomination Continue?

Yes 53 47.32%
 
No 41 36.61%
 
Trump should pick a new canidate 18 16.07%
 
Total:112
ratchet426 said:
Sordel said:

That's a good point. I suppose I mean the “standard of proof were the statute of limitation ignored”. Or alternatively, such evidence to be found that would make it impossible for Kavanagh to bring a defamation suit (not that he ever would). Either way, the purpose of the FBI investigation is not to ensure that Kavanagh is innocent but to confirm that there is insufficient evidence to prove that he is guilty. The Flake compromise should give Republican senators coverage against the nightmare scenario that they vote Kavanagh through and it is later proved (to a reasonable standard) that he's guilty.

There is no statute of limitations for sexual assault in the state of Maryland.

There was until '96 and you can't retroactively apply stricter laws. That said, I don't think that is a defense of anything in this case, especially given the fact that it would implicate him in further crimes of perjury.



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HylianSwordsman said:
These discussions are so stupid. Everyone has already made up their minds. 

I watched all the committee speeches on Friday live and heard great points made on both sides. I get the impression that the only reason people make up their minds is because they close their minds. 



No besides the sexual abuse allegations that came up it also has been proven that the guy has a a serious gambling addiction and it looks like he probably has alcohol problems also.



sundin13 said:

Agreed, thats pretty much why I've dropped out of these conversations. There just isn't enough information to say one way or the other what is true definitively. There is some interesting middle ground about what should be done in non-definitive cases but it seems everybody just wants to accuse someone of lying while asserting with 100% confidence that they know whoever they supports is telling the truth (which is BS no matter which side you support). I see no reason to really add to that noise.

In my opinion, most people who believe that Kavanaugh should be confirmed believe so not because they believe she is lying, but because there just isn't any proof. You say we can't know what the truth is. Knowing that, what should the default course of action be? Drop Kavanaugh (guilty unless proven innocent) or confirm him (innocent unless proven guilty)? There's no in-between or third option. One course of action has to be chosen. I believe EVERYONE if they were in his shoes would like to be treated as innocent. And that's why there's just no valid reason for him to not be confirmed.



sundin13 said:
ratchet426 said:

There is no statute of limitations for sexual assault in the state of Maryland.

There was until '96 and you can't retroactively apply stricter laws. That said, I don't think that is a defense of anything in this case, especially given the fact that it would implicate him in further crimes of perjury.

Well that's the rub: ANY kind of corroborating evidence (i.e. others confirming that Kavanaugh was at the party Ford described) would mean perjury for Kavanaugh, since he's on record under oath of never being at the party or ever meeting Ford.

All he had to say when these allegations came up was "Like most teenagers at the time I would sometimes have too much to drink. I do not recall any incident like Dr. Ford described and I have never nor would ever sexually harrass/assault women. I would welcome a full FBI investigation to clear my good name on this matter and to confirm my fitness to serve as a SCOTUS justice."  (or something along those lines)

Instead we got to see an angry, ranting, belligerent man yelling about Clinton conspiracy theories and alternately crying about how unfairly he was being treated. And all the while refusing to answer the question of whether he wanted and/or supported an FBI investigation to clear his name.



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NightlyPoe said:
ratchet426 said: 
There is no statute of limitations for sexual assault in the state of Maryland.

I heard that too.  But apparently there is.  This letter was released yesterday and comes straight from the authorities in Maryland in which they say they're available to investigate the matter should it ever be reported to them.  They being the proper authorities under which this was a crime, not the FBI.  They state that attempted rape was a misdemeanor at the time and only had a single year before the statute of limitations passed.  Here is the relevant portion:

To date, there have been no criminal reports filed with the Montgomery County Department of Police that would lead to the initiation of any criminal investigation related to Judge Kavanaugh. Furthermore, the law at the time the offense occured is the law that must be applied to any charges that might be brought. For example, in 1982, assault and attempted rape were both misdemeanors and subject to a one-year statue of limitations.

That is true, mostly because of the specific charge that would apply in this case.

(from https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/09/maryland-statute-limitations/571507/)

"Although Maryland is one of few states without a statute of limitations on felony charges of rape and attempted rape, the incident Blasey Ford described—a crime of attempted rape between two minors (a 17-year-old boy or 15-year-old girl)—would have been a misdemeanor in 1982, though it’s a felony now. Crimes prosecuted years later are still punished according to the laws of the time: You can’t be charged for a felony without knowing you’re committing one.

Ford’s allegations could, however, lead to other felony charges that have no statutes of limitations in Maryland, including assault with the intent to rape, according to Thiru Vignarajah, Maryland’s former deputy attorney general."



Rêveur said:
sundin13 said:

Agreed, thats pretty much why I've dropped out of these conversations. There just isn't enough information to say one way or the other what is true definitively. There is some interesting middle ground about what should be done in non-definitive cases but it seems everybody just wants to accuse someone of lying while asserting with 100% confidence that they know whoever they supports is telling the truth (which is BS no matter which side you support). I see no reason to really add to that noise.

In my opinion, most people who believe that Kavanaugh should be confirmed believe so not because they believe she is lying, but because there just isn't any proof. You say we can't know what the truth is. Knowing that, what should the default course of action be? Drop Kavanaugh (guilty unless proven innocent) or confirm him (innocent unless proven guilty)? There's no in-between or third option. One course of action has to be chosen. I believe EVERYONE if they were in his shoes would like to be treated as innocent. And that's why there's just no valid reason for him to not be confirmed.

As others have said, this isn't a court of law. He is being lined up for a promotion so the comparison to someone being tried just doesn't work. What we are asking is if we should take the risk that the country is promoting a sexually abusive liar to the top court in the country, or if perhaps another candidate would be better for the country. Basically, I consider it to be a fairly mathematical formula (numbers are hypothetical):

If we a assume a truthful Kavanaugh's suitability for the job is 10, a lying Kavanaugh's suitability is 5 and Trump's second choice is a 9, then if there is greater than a 20% chance that any of these accusations are true or that any of his statements made in court were not true, then Kavanaugh is not the best candidate for the job.

Obviously those numbers are hypothetical, but I think it demonstrates the point (I would argue that Kavanaugh was not the best candidate for this job before the accusations but hey, thats just me).



sundin13 said: 

If we a assume a truthful Kavanaugh's suitability for the job is 10, a lying Kavanaugh's suitability is 5 and Trump's second choice is a 9, then if there is greater than a 20% chance that any of these accusations are true or that any of his statements made in court were not true, then Kavanaugh is not the best candidate for the job.

I have no problem with your logic here, but I do find it puzzling that you'd consider a lying Kavanaugh's suitability to be a 5 instead of a zero I mean, if he's lying then he's essentially an attempted rapist and committed perjury by lying to Congress. That only knocks him down to a 5 ?!? I know you were just giving a hypothetical, but...



ratchet426 said:
sundin13 said: 

If we a assume a truthful Kavanaugh's suitability for the job is 10, a lying Kavanaugh's suitability is 5 and Trump's second choice is a 9, then if there is greater than a 20% chance that any of these accusations are true or that any of his statements made in court were not true, then Kavanaugh is not the best candidate for the job.

I have no problem with your logic here, but I do find it puzzling that you'd consider a lying Kavanaugh's suitability to be a 5 instead of a zero I mean, if he's lying then he's essentially an attempted rapist and committed perjury by lying to Congress. That only knocks him down to a 5 ?!? I know you were just giving a hypothetical, but...

I was being generous for the sake of argument xD Technically he is still a highly qualified judge but yeah, I'd agree that 5 is highly generous, especially in this context. If you were to change the 5 to a 0, that would drop it down to him not being the most qualified if there is even a 10% chance of him lying under the previously defined hypothetical conditions.



NightlyPoe said:
Chris Hu said:
No besides the sexual abuse allegations that came up it also has been proven that the guy has a a serious gambling addiction and it looks like he probably has alcohol problems also.

There has been no evidence of a gambling addiction or alcohol problems.

Actually there is evidence that he lost tons of money due to gambling.  Also he started drinking on a regular basis in high school already so its very likely he has alcohol problems also.