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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174
Snoopy on 04 September 2018
SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

I'm not religious (agnostic), but I do believe in God. If I asked someone in the scientific community if I should play the lottery, they will tell me that would be a stupid move. However, the way the universe is created according to some scientific theories that will be like playing the lottery at least a million times over and winning it all in a row. It's crazy that some people think that everything came from nothing. In order for something to be created, it either has to be 1. The object has the potential to be something such as water turning into ice or 2.Needs to be created by something or someone.

The lottery angle is not hard to grasp.  Imagine the odds were 1 in 1 million.  And you played all 1 million combinations.  You would absolutely win.  There are 200 billion stars in our galaxy alone and over 2 trillion galaxies just in our observable universe.  Many of those 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars have planets.  I'd take that bet that one of them could create and sustain life.

Oh, and because that is just our observable universe, it totally ignores the whole universe.  That figure would go up exponentially greater by a factor we don't even have a number for.  The numbers get so huge that it becomes almost impossible for life NOT to have established itself.  The chemical and physical circumstances required were practically guaranteed to happen at some point during the past 13.8 billion years across the near infinite number of planets.

By the way, there is ice all over the universe.  It's not exactly rare.  In fact, alien life is more likely to be found on an icy planet than one like Earth.

First of all, in order for there to be life like we have, you have to have a planet with resources, not just stars. Bringing up stars is completely pointless. It's like saying we have a billion men on an island by themselves and expecting a baby to be born through natural means.  A lot more is in play then just stars, to say the least.

I believe there are aliens obviously, however in order for there to be life a lot of things have to happen. Even if all the material is there, doesn't mean something will be created by itself. It's also hard to imagine to have all the things we got by chance just cause one reaction occurring after another and nothing going wrong. Also, your lottery interpretation is way off. The odds are more like a 1 in a hundred trillion. Each solar system is a separate lottery competition and that's probably an understatement.

Last edited by Snoopy - on 04 September 2018

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Shaqazooloo0 on 04 September 2018

I honestly have no idea why you guys are even still replying to each other. Like really, what do you expect the other side to say?

Theist: "Oh... welp, I guess I shouldn't believe in God, you guys were right!"

Atheist:" I've seen the light, I guess their is a reason to believe in God, sweet!"

I believe in God for my own reasons and i'm not gonna change, I don't expect an atheist to change their mind and think that my believe in God is justified, because it's simply something we can't prove. At least not yet anyway...

Discussions like these are always a pain to read through because everyone has there head inside their ass. I would like to see or hear a discussion about this without it getting life threateningly toxic.

*sigh Anyway, I don't think i'd be cool with God revealing himself or whatever. I just feel like that could cause problems.

Edited: to be less aggressive.

Last edited by Shaqazooloo0 - on 04 September 2018

JWeinCom on 04 September 2018
Shaqazooloo0 said:

I honestly have no idea why you guys are even still replying to each other. Like really, what do you expect the other side to say?

Theist: "Oh... welp, I guess I shouldn't believe in God, you guys were right!"

Atheist:" I've seen the light, I guess their is a reason to believe in God, sweet!"

I believe in God for my own reasons and i'm not gonna change, I don't expect an atheist to change their mind and think that my believe in God is justified, because it's simply something we can't prove. At least not yet anyway...

Discussions like these are always a pain to read through because everyone has there head inside their ass. I would like to see or hear a discussion about this without it getting life threateningly toxic.

*sigh Anyway, I don't think i'd be cool with God revealing himself or whatever. I just feel like that could cause problems.

Edited: to be less aggressive.

Well, first off I find it interesting.  Second of all, I'm hoping that someone, not necessarily the person in the conversation, will read what was said, and have a good honest think about it.  Lastly, if theists do have a good justified reason for belief in god, I'd like to be made aware of it.  I'm doubtful this will occur (mainly because I think if there's a good reason I'd have heard it by now), but I don't really fancy the idea of death.  If someone could actually give me a good reason to expect eternal life, I'd be down.



Peh on 04 September 2018
Shaqazooloo0 said:

I honestly have no idea why you guys are even still replying to each other. Like really, what do you expect the other side to say?

Theist: "Oh... welp, I guess I shouldn't believe in God, you guys were right!"

Atheist:" I've seen the light, I guess their is a reason to believe in God, sweet!"

I believe in God for my own reasons and i'm not gonna change, I don't expect an atheist to change their mind and think that my believe in God is justified, because it's simply something we can't prove. At least not yet anyway...

Discussions like these are always a pain to read through because everyone has there head inside their ass. I would like to see or hear a discussion about this without it getting life threateningly toxic.

*sigh Anyway, I don't think i'd be cool with God revealing himself or whatever. I just feel like that could cause problems.

Edited: to be less aggressive.

What? Where did it got life threateningly toxic?



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

Malt4zar on 04 September 2018

I've always had an interesting relationship to God. I do not believe it's real and, in a way, I really hope it's right.

God is no more than a dictator, if real. But if it exists, is it not plausible to think that anything else of a magical nature can also be real?

Ghosts, Aliens on Earth, even Super Heroes wearing capes. Anything. And this makes me excited, but still, just the thought of a magical being high up in the sky with enough power to help everyone in need sitting idle towards all misery is enough to make my blood boil.



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Shaqazooloo0 on 04 September 2018
JWeinCom said:

Well, first off I find it interesting.  Second of all, I'm hoping that someone, not necessarily the person in the conversation, will read what was said, and have a good honest think about it.  Lastly, if theists do have a good justified reason for belief in god, I'd like to be made aware of it.  I'm doubtful this will occur (mainly because I think if there's a good reason I'd have heard it by now), but I don't really fancy the idea of death.  If someone could actually give me a good reason to expect eternal life, I'd be down.

Yeah, you've made a lot of good posts. So I think you're okay. I find these discussions interesting too. I don't participate in them, I'd rather just see what people have to say gain new perspective and think about what's being said, maybe learn a little somethin' somethin'... Also I'm not smart enough to add anything of value...

I was more referring to the back and forth at this point being kind of pointless.

Peh said:

What? Where did it got life threateningly toxic?

Just reading through the past few pages was kind of frustrating to me. Maybe it isn't as toxic as I said, but at this point it's just a dog pile imo and it's annoying to read. Some of these posts from both sides seem really condescending for no reason to me. It won't end, and the discussion you guys keep coming back to won't be resolved imo. Also, I don't really think anybodies been adding anything to this for quite a few posts now. 

Last edited by Shaqazooloo0 - on 04 September 2018

Peh on 04 September 2018
Shaqazooloo0 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well, first off I find it interesting.  Second of all, I'm hoping that someone, not necessarily the person in the conversation, will read what was said, and have a good honest think about it.  Lastly, if theists do have a good justified reason for belief in god, I'd like to be made aware of it.  I'm doubtful this will occur (mainly because I think if there's a good reason I'd have heard it by now), but I don't really fancy the idea of death.  If someone could actually give me a good reason to expect eternal life, I'd be down.

Yeah, you've made a lot of good posts. So I think you're okay. I find these discussions interesting too. I don't participate in them, I'd rather just see what people have to say gain new perspective and think about what's being said, maybe learn a little somethin' somethin'... Also I'm not smart enough to add anything of value...

I was more referring to the back and forth at this point being kind of pointless.

Peh said:

What? Where did it got life threateningly toxic?

Just reading through the past few pages was kind of frustrating to me. Maybe it isn't as toxic as I said, but at this point it's just a dog pile imo and it's annoying to read. Some of these posts from both sides seem really condescending for no reason to me. It won't end, and the discussion you guys keep coming back to won't be resolved imo. Also, I don't really think anybodies been adding anything to this for quite a few posts now. 

Debates can get heated and personally I am not a fan of it. I am more interested in the knowledge itself and how good it can stand against criticism. Thus, I call out a logical fallacy when I see one. A lot of people try to win an argument at any point. It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong aslong as they win over the crowd. I am not interested in those things. I've seen a lot of debates over the years and know most of the fallacious arguments being used. I have a high despise for apologists. They are dishonest people in my eyes. Ken Ham and Ray Comfort are a good example. They never learn and use the same argument at its core over and over again. 

If I am wrong, and probably am, then just point that out, because it can happen that I don't see it at first.



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

JWeinCom on 04 September 2018
Shaqazooloo0 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well, first off I find it interesting.  Second of all, I'm hoping that someone, not necessarily the person in the conversation, will read what was said, and have a good honest think about it.  Lastly, if theists do have a good justified reason for belief in god, I'd like to be made aware of it.  I'm doubtful this will occur (mainly because I think if there's a good reason I'd have heard it by now), but I don't really fancy the idea of death.  If someone could actually give me a good reason to expect eternal life, I'd be down.

Yeah, you've made a lot of good posts. So I think you're okay. I find these discussions interesting too. I don't participate in them, I'd rather just see what people have to say gain new perspective and think about what's being said, maybe learn a little somethin' somethin'... Also I'm not smart enough to add anything of value...

I was more referring to the back and forth at this point being kind of pointless.

Peh said:

What? Where did it got life threateningly toxic?

Just reading through the past few pages was kind of frustrating to me. Maybe it isn't as toxic as I said, but at this point it's just a dog pile imo and it's annoying to read. Some of these posts from both sides seem really condescending for no reason to me. It won't end, and the discussion you guys keep coming back to won't be resolved imo. Also, I don't really think anybodies been adding anything to this for quite a few posts now. 

Well, a lot of topics wind up like that on this site (and many others I assume).  I believe about every NPD thread for the past year or so has devolved into people arguing with quick rick about Switch sales.  Just the way these things go.  But in this case, it doesn't really bother me so much.  It's a bit hard to explain the difference, but I think with an NPD thread for instance, there are a lot of people who would like to discuss a lot of things and are prevented from doing so.  In this topic there's really only one thing to discuss, and I don't think there's a whole lot of people who really want to discuss this that can't.  I feel I didn't explain that well, but hopefully you get what I mean.

As for the dogpiling... I kind of get what you're saying, but it's sort of human nature.  When people feel like they're saying something worthwhile and they're being ignored, they tend to repeat it and louder.  So like with what's been going on the last few pages, about burden of proof... This is something that is really well established and should be obvious.  When it's explained clearly and repeatedly denied, people get frustrated.  I'm guessing the other side feels the same.  



JWeinCom on 04 September 2018
Peh said:
Shaqazooloo0 said:

Yeah, you've made a lot of good posts. So I think you're okay. I find these discussions interesting too. I don't participate in them, I'd rather just see what people have to say gain new perspective and think about what's being said, maybe learn a little somethin' somethin'... Also I'm not smart enough to add anything of value...

I was more referring to the back and forth at this point being kind of pointless.

Just reading through the past few pages was kind of frustrating to me. Maybe it isn't as toxic as I said, but at this point it's just a dog pile imo and it's annoying to read. Some of these posts from both sides seem really condescending for no reason to me. It won't end, and the discussion you guys keep coming back to won't be resolved imo. Also, I don't really think anybodies been adding anything to this for quite a few posts now. 

Debates can get heated and personally I am not a fan of it. I am more interested in the knowledge itself and how good it can stand against criticism. Thus, I call out a logical fallacy when I see one. A lot of people try to win an argument at any point. It doesn't matter if they are right or wrong aslong as they win over the crowd. I am not interested in those things. I've seen a lot of debates over the years and know most of the fallacious arguments being used. I have a high despise for apologists. They are dishonest people in my eyes. Ken Ham and Ray Comfort are a good example. They never learn and use the same argument at its core over and over again. 

If I am wrong, and probably am, then just point that out, because it can happen that I don't see it at first.

There are I think two types of apologists.  The ones who want to convert people, and the ones who want to make money by selling stuff to the people who already believe them.  I don't honestly believe for a second Ray Comfort believes he's converting anyone.  But when he says ridiculous shit, and atheists argue against it, it puts his name out there, and those christians who are delusional enough to believe it flock over in support.  



Snoopy on 04 September 2018
SpokenTruth said:
Snoopy said:

First of all, in order for there to be life like we have, you have to have a planet with resources, not just stars. Bringing up stars is completely pointless. It's like saying we have a billion men on an island by themselves and expecting a baby to be born through natural means.  A lot more is in play then just stars, to say the least.

I believe there are aliens obviously, however in order for there to be life a lot of things have to happen. Even if all the material is there, doesn't mean something will be created by itself. It's also hard to imagine to have all the things we got by chance just cause one reaction occurring after another and nothing going wrong. Also, your lottery interpretation is way off. The odds are more like a 1 in a hundred trillion. Each solar system is a separate lottery competition and that's probably an understatement.

Did you miss where I talked about the planets?  "Many of those 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars have planets."  That's an incredible number of life supporting planets.  And that's just the observable universe.  The whole universe is dramatically bigger.  Again, we don't even have a number for it bigger.

And yes, it did require a lot of things to go right.  So imagine how many planets started and failed to create or sustain life.  Earth isn't unique.  There are literally trillions of planets with Earth-like characteristics in the universe.  And you don't even completely need Earth-like characteristics for life to happen.  As I mentioned, we are more likely to find life that thrives in an icy environment than something like Earth.

My 1 in 1 million example was just that.  An example.  It was to demonstrate that if you have every possible combination you are guaranteed to win. Did you notice I immediately began talking about far bigger numbers?  1 million is small enough for us to wrap our heads around.  Our brains can't deal with numbers like 4,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  Oh, and if the odds were 1 in 100 trillion, fine, there is certainly that many planets in the entire universe.  Hell, even if each star had 1 planet in the observable universe and the 1 in 100 trillion odds were in play, that would still leave 40 billion planets that beat the odds and must have life on them.  And again, that's just the observable universe. 

And no, each solar system is not a separate lottery.  That doesn't even make any sense.

Yes, but how many of those planets have resources that can sustain life? Not many and not to mention there has to be life itself as well. I never said there isn't alien life, but it didn't just appear by chance which is the point you are missing. Also, each solar system is like one lotto ticket for a separate game since each one is completely different and has it own rules so to speak in some regards. 

The bottom line:  You can't actually believe the universe without a consciousness can create everything we have today by chance. Most of the things we enjoy today (technology, buildings/infastructue,most of our food/resource, etc) were made by someone with consciousness. Earth itself is much more complex and advanced than all of the items I mentioned. There is no way it could be created by chance.