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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174

Interesting topic.

One side believes that life was created by a God.

The other side believes that life created itself out of basic elements.

Neither side has any proof, but both sides have "faith" that they are correct.



In the absence of evidence to the contrary, always assume you have the upper hand.

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Pemalite said:
There is zero empirical evidence to justify the assertion that any kind of God actually exists.
After thousands of years, no religion has been able to meet the burden of proof of their religious claims. None at all.

Just responding to this because it is the simplest, most straightforward way to disprove religion. Maybe not God (As we cannot disprove God any more than we can PROVE God's existence), but definitely puts a stake in Religion and its representations of god. 



Alara317 said:
Pemalite said:
There is zero empirical evidence to justify the assertion that any kind of God actually exists.
After thousands of years, no religion has been able to meet the burden of proof of their religious claims. None at all.

Just responding to this because it is the simplest, most straightforward way to disprove religion. Maybe not God (As we cannot disprove God any more than we can PROVE God's existence), but definitely puts a stake in Religion and its representations of god. 

This does not disprove anything at all. It's one thing to meet and disregard religious claims, it's something else to actually bring your own proof to the table. What people don't understand about proof of burden is that 1. It works both in a positive as in a negative sense & 2. Unless you're a sceptic, empirical proof isn't the only form of proof, for if that was the case, our own science wouldn't even be able to operate correctly.



WolfpackN64 said:
Pemalite said:

No it's not.
The burden of proof entails that ANYONE who makes a claim needs to actually provide evidence, that is all there is to it.

Atheists asking Theists evidence for their claims or heavily scrutinizing said Theistic claims do not need to meet any kind of burden of proof. - Atheists aren't claiming that something else actually exists in it's place. (And most Atheists believe in what Science has provided anyway.)

Atheists are also free to discard any Theistic claim that doesn't meet said burden of proof. I.E. God.

The only real Truth is what we have discovered via the scientific method and not what the Bible, Torah or Quran or other Religious texts says, that's really what it comes down to.

Fact of the matter is... These Middle Eastern, Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) have been around for thousands of years, they have had thousands of years to gather appropriate empirical evidence to justify their various religious assertions... And have blatantly failed on all fronts... And honestly I believe they should be ridiculed for that. Heavily.

Just because sceptics throw away any rational argument and revelations because it's not empirical to them does not mean they are right. on the contrary. If they are so sure there is no God, the burden is just as much on them as it is on us, as we have provided many an argument as they have failed to empirically disprove  anything.

"Just because sceptics throw away any rational argument and revelations because it's not empirical to them does not mean they are right."

What do you consider a rational argument and revelation? Subjective experiences bring you nowhere, for the main reason that everyone can make such a claim and get away with it.

"If they are so sure there is no God, the burden is just as much on them as it is on us,"

That's only correct for those who make the claim that there is no god. Most atheists just don't accept your claim and simply reject it. It's the same you do with all the other gods out there. So far, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Otherwise I could claim that a Smurf created the universe and claim that the burden of proof is on you. Now disprove me. 

"as we have provided many an argument as they have failed to empirically disprove  anything." 

I've yet to see a valid argument for god which isn't born out of ignorance. You can surely provide one.



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Peh said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Just because sceptics throw away any rational argument and revelations because it's not empirical to them does not mean they are right. on the contrary. If they are so sure there is no God, the burden is just as much on them as it is on us, as we have provided many an argument as they have failed to empirically disprove  anything.

"Just because sceptics throw away any rational argument and revelations because it's not empirical to them does not mean they are right."

What do you consider a rational argument and revelation? Subjective experiences bring you nowhere, for the main reason that everyone can make such a claim and get away with it.

"If they are so sure there is no God, the burden is just as much on them as it is on us,"

That's only correct for those who make the claim that there is no god. Most atheists just don't accept your claim and simply reject it. It's the same you do with all the other gods out there. So far, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Otherwise I could claim that a Smurf created the universe and claim that the burden of proof is on you. Now disprove me. 

"as we have provided many an argument as they have failed to empirically disprove  anything." 

I've yet to see a valid argument for god which isn't born out of ignorance. You can surely provide one.

I feel like this thread is just going in circles. Anyway: the ontological, teleological and cosmological arguments (as also outlined in the thread). The Cosmological argument being the most logically sound. Couple that with the vast amount of revelations (both biblical and historial) and you have a quite solid foundation.

The skeptics and empiricists discard revelation very easily, but if they then claim that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them.



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WolfpackN64 said:
Peh said:

"Just because sceptics throw away any rational argument and revelations because it's not empirical to them does not mean they are right."

What do you consider a rational argument and revelation? Subjective experiences bring you nowhere, for the main reason that everyone can make such a claim and get away with it.

"If they are so sure there is no God, the burden is just as much on them as it is on us,"

That's only correct for those who make the claim that there is no god. Most atheists just don't accept your claim and simply reject it. It's the same you do with all the other gods out there. So far, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Otherwise I could claim that a Smurf created the universe and claim that the burden of proof is on you. Now disprove me. 

"as we have provided many an argument as they have failed to empirically disprove  anything." 

I've yet to see a valid argument for god which isn't born out of ignorance. You can surely provide one.

I feel like this thread is just going in circles. Anyway: the ontological, teleological and cosmological arguments (as also outlined in the thread). The Cosmological argument being the most logically sound. Couple that with the vast amount of revelations (both biblical and historial) and you have a quite solid foundation.

The skeptics and empiricists discard revelation very easily, but if they then claim that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them.

Yes, this is going in circles, because I already told you what I think of those. So I take it, that you got none. I don't know why I should bother with revelation. I don't consider the Bible to be a word of God simply because of the contradiction to historical evidence. I.e. Exodus, Massacre of the Innocents... or even the Epic of Gilgamesh. For the latter, I know what the position of apologists is, so we don't have to argue about that. 

"The skeptics and empiricists discard revelation very easily, but if they then claim that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them."

I already said that you are correct regarding this. Yet, from the information I can collect is that you accept claims without evidence simply because you like the sound of it. At least, that is what I see from you reasoning. 



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WolfpackN64 said:
JWeinCom said:

Well, the conclusion of the argument definitely says the being is god.  So, it's definitely not valid as you presented it.  If we agree on that then ok.

Taking god out of the equation and ending at necessary being, the argument would be valid, but I don't think it's demonstrated to be sound.  It's based on the assumption that we can apply what is the case in our experience of the universe (cause and effect)and apply it to a novel situation (the universe prior to the big bang).  I would say at best the argument can lead to "something other than contingent things exist".  I don't think you can really get any further than that through deduction, and even that is somewhat shaky.  

And, of course, I would reject revelation as a meaningful argument out of hand, because using revelation to prove god would be begging the question, assuming your definition of revelation is the Bible. 

So when combining all of those factors, I don't think the cosmological argument (even if you combine the deductive and inductive parts) really offers a very compelling argument for the existence of god. 

Well, the probability of a necessary being or event goes a long way of course. As for revelation, I meant that both in the biblical sense as in the historical sense (the various events where people experienced revelation). Revelation in the personal sense would be a form of abduction, since you take God as an inference to the best explanation for an experience.

We haven't established any sort of probability. As we have agreed the cosmological argument is deductive.  It is either true or false.  If we can't confirm or deny the argument, we can't make any claim about it's probability.   We can say it's not impossible, but that's about it.

As for revelation, if I believe in revelation, then that puts me in an awkward spot.  Because if I accept revelation from Christians, I'd also have to accept Muslim revelation.  Hindu revelation, Satanist revelation, and really any kind of weird personal claim anybody makes.  So unless there is a particularly good reason to accept Christian revelation, which I've never been provided with, I can't take revelation as evidence.

As for your repeated insistence that atheists have a burden of proof, no.  If they want to claim that god definitely doesn't exist, then yes, but that's not what I've seen people in this thread say.  You're trying to strawman them because the antitheist position is much easier to attack.

It is basically impossible to prove a negative.  To repeat an example I gave earlier, if I said I had a unicorn in my apartment right now, you would be completely unable to disprove it.  But I'm guessing you wouldn't believe me.  You would not believe me unless I could offer some kind of proof.  And that's what we're doing. 



WolfpackN64 said:
Alara317 said:

Just responding to this because it is the simplest, most straightforward way to disprove religion. Maybe not God (As we cannot disprove God any more than we can PROVE God's existence), but definitely puts a stake in Religion and its representations of god. 

This does not disprove anything at all. It's one thing to meet and disregard religious claims, it's something else to actually bring your own proof to the table. What people don't understand about proof of burden is that 1. It works both in a positive as in a negative sense & 2. Unless you're a sceptic, empirical proof isn't the only form of proof, for if that was the case, our own science wouldn't even be able to operate correctly.

What form of non-empirical proof is necessary for science to operate correctly?



...

Peh said:
WolfpackN64 said:

I feel like this thread is just going in circles. Anyway: the ontological, teleological and cosmological arguments (as also outlined in the thread). The Cosmological argument being the most logically sound. Couple that with the vast amount of revelations (both biblical and historial) and you have a quite solid foundation.

The skeptics and empiricists discard revelation very easily, but if they then claim that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them.

Yes, this is going in circles, because I already told you what I think of those. So I take it, that you got none. I don't know why I should bother with revelation. I don't consider the Bible to be a word of God simply because of the contradiction to historical evidence. I.e. Exodus, Massacre of the Innocents... or even the Epic of Gilgamesh. For the latter, I know what the position of apologists is, so we don't have to argue about that. 

"The skeptics and empiricists discard revelation very easily, but if they then claim that God does not exist, the burden of proof is on them."

I already said that you are correct regarding this. Yet, from the information I can collect is that you accept claims without evidence simply because you like the sound of it. At least, that is what I see from you reasoning. 

Note that I said historical revelations are important to. It's not like people stopped having revelations after the biblical period (in fact, there are nearly too many to count).



JWeinCom said:
WolfpackN64 said:

Well, the probability of a necessary being or event goes a long way of course. As for revelation, I meant that both in the biblical sense as in the historical sense (the various events where people experienced revelation). Revelation in the personal sense would be a form of abduction, since you take God as an inference to the best explanation for an experience.

We haven't established any sort of probability. As we have agreed the cosmological argument is deductive.  It is either true or false.  If we can't confirm or deny the argument, we can't make any claim about it's probability.   We can say it's not impossible, but that's about it.

As for revelation, if I believe in revelation, then that puts me in an awkward spot.  Because if I accept revelation from Christians, I'd also have to accept Muslim revelation.  Hindu revelation, Satanist revelation, and really any kind of weird personal claim anybody makes.  So unless there is a particularly good reason to accept Christian revelation, which I've never been provided with, I can't take revelation as evidence.

As for your repeated insistence that atheists have a burden of proof, no.  If they want to claim that god definitely doesn't exist, then yes, but that's not what I've seen people in this thread say.  You're trying to strawman them because the antitheist position is much easier to attack.

It is basically impossible to prove a negative.  To repeat an example I gave earlier, if I said I had a unicorn in my apartment right now, you would be completely unable to disprove it.  But I'm guessing you wouldn't believe me.  You would not believe me unless I could offer some kind of proof.  And that's what we're doing. 

It's not impossible to prove a negative. In the situation of a unicorn in your appartment however, I can only rely on abduction. Seeing as how improbable that is, I will not take it for truth.