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Forums - General Discussion - Do you believe in God? Why/Why not?

 

Do you believe in any god?

Yes 63 36.21%
 
No 111 63.79%
 
Total:174

Yes, I do believe in God. I also believe in everything science says. I find no contradiction in that. If I had to boil down why, it's just that the alternatives just seem so stupid to me.

Possibility 1: The one observable universe is all there is. We must simply accept this as a brute fact. I reject the existence of brute facts because I find them intellectually unsatisfying. I can't just accept something as fact. Luckily science and philosophy have grown beyond this and have better possibilities to explain the universe.

Possibility 2: There are an infinitely infinite number for universes for every possible permutation of every combination of concepts that could make up a universe, and ours is just one of them. Essentially, if it could be imagined, regardless of how incredible a being you'd have to be, or not, to imagine it, it exists. Nothing doesn't exist, so our existence isn't anything special. My mind rejects this possibility. It's not just intellectually unsatisfying, it's downright distasteful. It's stupid. People describe this possibility as "every time I eat breakfast, there's a universe where I eat waffles and one where I eat pancakes" or some other simple decision. Not only would this possibility mean that is true, it goes so much deeper than that. It means that there are universes for every imaginable set of laws, including universes where the laws don't make sense, or have tons of brute facts that simply have to be accepted (example: a universe where hamburgers appear in random locations for no reason other than it's just a law of that universe). This possibility means that for every universe, including ours, there's a version of it with and without a God, but the exact same things happened in that universe. There would be infinite versions of each universe that had a God but where He interacted with the universe in different ways and had different characteristics, or had the same characteristics but had a different subjective opinion about various things. We in our universe could never prove the existence of any of these universes but would have to accept them all as brute facts. Infinitely infinite brute facts. Also, consider that if nothing doesn't exist, then there is no meaning to existence. You can't find your own meaning to it either, as any meaning you derive from it would be an illusion. Ignorance would be the only path to bliss, something which I reject.

Possibility 3: Not all possible universes exist, but there is a multiverse from which all universes arise according to laws of the multiverse, and theoretically infinite universes could arise according to these laws, and if a universe could be created by these laws, then after a sufficient amount of time, it eventually will be created, and ours was one such universe. This solves the brute fact of possibility 1 and avoids the infinitely infinite brute facts of possibility 2, but creates its own brute fact. It's certainly better than the first two, in that the brute fact is less immediately obvious, but I still don't find it satisfying. It really only adds a step before you reach the brute fact. Sure, laws exist that explain our universe, but we still have to accept this multiverse and its laws as a brute fact. In this sense it is no more satisfying to me than possibility 1

Possibilty 4: There is sort of a multiverse, in the sense that our universe is a bubble of space-time that exists on a plane of nothingness where there are no laws and any number of universes can arise with any set of laws. Since there are no laws, thus no reason for a universe not to arise, an infinite number do, and ours is just one. This is no different from possibility 2, because if there's no reason for a universe not to arise, and no laws to determine which ones do and what laws they have, then infinitely infinite universes arise in the exact way as described in possibility 2. We just gave it a setting.

Ultimately, though, what seems in possibilities 1 and 3 to be one brute fact is also infinitely many. For the question isn't simply why does the universe exist, but why does it continue to exist? Why don't the laws collapse? They could simply change at any moment. Is there a law that says the laws don't change? Where does that law come from and why doesn't it change? Another law that says it doesn't change? Here again, you must accept infinitely many brute facts.

God solves all this. If the universe exists because of Him, it can be sustained by Him. If there were a multiverse, its laws could be sustained by him. All of existence could be sustained by Him continuing to will it to be. Everything that exists is contingent upon something for its existence, and accepting that a contingent thing exists as a brute fact is something I cannot do. God transcends this by being a being that exists necessarily, not contingent upon anything, and to ask why such a being exists would be a category error, though at this point I delve into philosophical terms, which would take more time than I have to explain, and go on longer than anyone on a gaming forum would read.



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estebxx said:
JWeinCom said:

Do you care if what you believe is true?

I wanna believe it's true.

Is it true? I don't know but i want too believe in it, thats what faith is.

If you don't care about truth that's certainly your right.  I don't think it's a particularly good way to go about things.

Kalkano said:
JWeinCom said:

the Bible specifically allows slavery and instructs to take slaves from the heathens around you.  Christian theology does support slavery.  That doesn't mean all christians do, but if they oppose it it is not because of the teachings of the Bible.

You don't understand what you're talking about.  The only slavery the Bible talks about is not the same type of slavery that is ingrained into our brains (because it was the most recent).  It is not the same as what we did to African Americans a couple hundred years ago.  "Slavery" in the Bible is not even close to the same thing.

Have you ever seen a TV Show/Movie where people go out to eat, and when it comes time to pay, they realize they don't have any money?  Sometimes they dine and dash.  Other times, they work it off.  They may go in the back and wash dishes for a while until the debt is paid.  THAT'S the "slavery" in the Bible.  It is a repayment of debt.  It is NOT forced ownership and "we can do whatever the hell we want to you, because you're inferior".

What you are referring to are the rules for owning Hebrews as slaves.  From Deuteronomy,

“If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. As the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today."

Then, there are separate laws for owning non-jews.

From Leviticus,

"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly."

These are people who do not owe any debt to the owner (they are bought from strangers).   They are property that can be passed down and are too be owned forever.  

Oh, and you're allowed to beat them, as long as they don't die immediately.
From Exodus,
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

If you are suggesting this is just like "whoops I left my wallet at home, how about I do the dishes" you were either ignorant of what the Bible said, or lying.


Nahhhhh and I haven't for probably 10 years now. I can understand the value of and reason behind faith but I have yet to see anything that would convince me to believe



I don't know because that's some deep philosophical soul-searching embedded in that question.



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I don't actively believe in any gods, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. I just think it's extremely naive to make any affirmations on subjects we know nothing nor do we have the capacity to know about. And I suspect if there is anything out there, it's actually a coincidence existing independent of any theory that humans could come up with. In fact, there's a pretty solid chance we're actually in some sort of simulation, so whatever is the actual truth to all of this is probably more bizarre and complicated than we could possibly comprehend.

estebxx said: 
Yes.

Why? Because i want to, i have faith.

I ask this with the utmost sincerity and respect, because I genuinely want to know the answer: do you believe that your desires hold any bearing on what reality is? I find religious faith to be absolutely fascinating, seriously. I see many believers use the word "faith" like some kind of impressive mic drop moment. Religious faith is literally believing something sans any elements of known reality involved, essentially taking a shortcut to a desired belief without going through all the inconvenient and complicated groundwork that usually leads to believing something. Can you offer any insight or does it just end there?

Last edited by aiwass - on 23 August 2018

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aiwass said:
estebxx said: 
Yes.

Why? Because i want to, i have faith.

I ask this with the utmost sincerity and respect, because I genuinely want to know the answer: 1) do you believe that your desires hold any bearing on what reality is? I find religious faith to be absolutely fascinating, seriously. I see many believers use the word "faith" like some kind of impressive mic drop moment. Religious faith is literally believing something sans any elements of known reality involved, essentially taking a shortcut to a desired belief without going through all the inconvenient and complicated groundwork that usually leads to believing something. 2) Can you offer any insight or does it just end there?

1) No i dont, my belief in the order of things might be completely wrong.

2) I cant, i simply decided i wanted to believe.

JWeinCom said:
estebxx said:

I wanna believe it's true.

Is it true? I don't know but i want too believe in it, thats what faith is.

If you don't care about truth that's certainly your right.  I don't think it's a particularly good way to go about things.

I never said i didnt care about the truth, simply that i dont know if its true or not.

I cant prove to you that he exists but there is always a chance that he may exist and given that chance i want to believe, its that simple.

Also i see you having really long conversations on this topic and i just want to leave it clear here, look i dont wanna have some overly long disscussion about this (since honestly there isnt much for me to even add here) im not some obssesive religious person, and im not even as invested on this topic as you are (from what i can see reading this thread), what i said is really all i have to offer.

Last edited by estebxx - on 24 August 2018

I do. It brings me comfort. That's all.



LuccaCardoso1 said:
GhaudePhaede010 said:
Yes because it statistically makes no sense to believe we do not have a Creator of some kind.

Can you explain it better? Why doesn't it make sense statistically?

Upon my last deep investigation, the statistical probability of God existing is 67%.

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/the-probability-of-god

 

While this is obviously ever changing, I have no idea why anyone would think there is a stronger chance there is no God. Especially considering we are on a video game forum... ...a place which basically gives light, understanding, and reverence to the process, in a microcosm, of how God would actually work.



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There's a possibility for most things, the thought of that entity being solely here for us humans is kinda egocentric to belief for a species and that certain possibility would be rather low.
The thing is, even if he existed i would not follow him.



GhaudePhaede010 said:
LuccaCardoso1 said:

Can you explain it better? Why doesn't it make sense statistically?

Upon my last deep investigation, the statistical probability of God existing is 67%.

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/08/the-probability-of-god

 

While this is obviously ever changing, I have no idea why anyone would think there is a stronger chance there is no God. Especially considering we are on a video game forum... ...a place which basically gives light, understanding, and reverence to the process, in a microcosm, of how God would actually work.

Bayesian analysis is kind of wonky.  It has its uses, but existential claims are not one of them.  Basically you are allowed to plug in whatever variables you want into the premises and assign whatever likelyhood you want to them.  (For example I could say the existence of smores is 1,000 times more likely if god exists).  

There's no real hard data behind it, so whatever answer you get is subjective.  Everyone will get a different outcome.