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Why are third party games selling well on Switch?

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RolStoppable said:
potato_hamster said:

I'm making things up? On what grounds?

"kid/family titles and ok indie support" that results in more third party game sales over the previous year is still an increase in third party support.
"indies and small-medium japanese titles" that results in more third party game sales over the previous year is still an increase in third party support.

Let's not forget that the world's biggest publisher, Activision/Blizzard has put out a total of two Switch games. EA, the second biggest publisher, will have put out its third Switch game when FIFA 19 comes out. Both of those companies supported the WIi U and Vita better in their first two years. In fact Activision/Blizzard put out 15 Wii U games it first two years, and EA put out six Vita games in its first two years.

You're just shifting the goalposts now so that "increase in third party support" only applies to the kind of games the Switch is getting.

I'd like to see a list of those Activision and EA games for Wii U and Vita, plus a split into year 1 and 2.

Hmm, this seems like a challenge for me, especially since this site has a GameDB.

So, Activision put out apparently 20 WiiU-games (I ignore the two, that have no Boxart and no sales associated). Five in 2012 (007 Legends, Call of Duty Black Ops, Skylanders Giants, Transformers: Prime and WipeOut 3). Six in 2013 (Spiderman, Walking Dead, SpongeBox, Skylanders Swap Force, Angry Birds Star Wars, Call of Duty Ghosts). Five in 2014 (Big game Hunter, Spiderman, Transformer: Dark Spark, Skylanders Trap Team, The Voice). Three in 2015 (Skylanders: SuperChargers, Guitar Hero, Peanuts Movie). And finally one in 2016 (Skylanders: Imaginators). Overall very Skylanderish.

I find four EA-games for WiiU, searching for Electronic Arts and EA Sports separately with different results. Three in 2012 (FIFA, Madden, Mass Effect) and one in 2013 (Need for Speed).

For Vita I find four Activision games. Call of Duty in 2012, Angry Birds and Spiderman in 2013 and SpongeBox in 2015.

EA had for Vita six games that I find. Need for Speed, Madden and two (???) FIFAs in 2012, and then a FIFA in 2013 and 2014.

 

So in conclusion: Vita had basically every year FIFA, something which also happens for Switch it seems. Activision did actually support the WiiU quite well. So far Switch doesn't seem up to par, but Skylanders seem no longer be a yearly IP, which made a lot of the WiiU support.

Last edited by Mnementh - on 15 August 2018

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Mnementh said:
RolStoppable said:

I'd like to see a list of those Activision and EA games for Wii U and Vita, plus a split into year 1 and 2.

Hmm, this seems like a challenge for me, especially since this site has a GameDB.

So, Activision put out apparently 20 WiiU-games (I ignore the two, that have no Boxart and no sales associated). Five in 2012 (007 Legends, Call of Duty Black Ops, Skylanders Giants, Transformers: Prime and WipeOut 3). Six in 2013 (Spiderman, Walking Dead, SpongeBox, Skylanders Swap Force, Angry Birds Star Wars, Call of Duty Ghosts). Five in 2014 (Big game Hunter, Spiderman, Transformer: Dark Spark, Skylanders Trap Team, The Voice). Three in 2015 (Skylanders: SuperChargers, Guitar Hero, Peanuts Movie). And finally one in 2016 (Skylanders: Imaginators). Overall very Skylanderish.

I find four EA-games for WiiU, searching for Electronic Arts and EA Sports separately with different results. Three in 2012 (FIFA, Madden, Mass Effect) and one in 2013 (Need for Speed).

For Vita I find four Activision games. Call of Duty in 2012, Angry Birds and Spiderman in 2013 and SpongeBox in 2015.

EA had for Vita six games that I find. Need for Speed, Madden and two (???) FIFAs in 2012, and then a FIFA in 2013 and 2014.

 

So in conclusion: Vita had basically every year FIFA, something which also happens for Switch it seems. Activision did actually support the WiiU quite well. So far Switch doesn't seem up to par, but Skylanders seem no longer be a yearly IP, which made a lot of the WiiU support.

Activision output in general has dropped significantly in the last couple years.

2017

Crash N. Sane Trilogy

Destiny 2

Call of Duty: WWII

 

2018

Spyro Reignited Trilogy

Destiny 2: The Forsaken

Call of Duty: Black Ops IIII



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Because there's actual good 3rd party games on a Nintendo system for a change. And not just lovelessly on the market thrown shovelware titles like 3rd parties did on previous Nintendo systems.



Miyamotoo said:
MajorMalfunction said:

Some money. They don't want *some* money, they want it all. GTAV NSW sales would probably not be noticed by 2K/Rockstar. If it's a 32 GB cart, it'll make about 21 million total, with 100% sell-though, but before development costs and ads, etc. are paid for.  If it's a 16 GB cart, it'll make more (ballpark: 30 million)

GTAV would definatly made quite a profit on Switch, game would easily sell 3m+ at least, good chanches are even for 5m+, it would probably become best selling 3rd party game even on Switch, and those numbers (so 3m+ at least) would make huge profit for 2K/Rockstar we talking about port of existing game, so development costs would be only few millions, and for full priced $60 game they would make at least around $20 pure profit per game whithout online, so they would easily make at least $50-100m profit. And for info, no, 32GB Switch carts dont cost $20 to devs, they are less than $10.

Source? I want to believe you, but I need information. 



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MajorMalfunction said:
Miyamotoo said:

GTAV would definatly made quite a profit on Switch, game would easily sell 3m+ at least, good chanches are even for 5m+, it would probably become best selling 3rd party game even on Switch, and those numbers (so 3m+ at least) would make huge profit for 2K/Rockstar we talking about port of existing game, so development costs would be only few millions, and for full priced $60 game they would make at least around $20 pure profit per game whithout online, so they would easily make at least $50-100m profit. And for info, no, 32GB Switch carts dont cost $20 to devs, they are less than $10.

Source? I want to believe you, but I need information. 

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=32gb+micro+sd+card&sprefix=32gb+micro%2Caps%2C245&crid=JGJYO1COQVFJ&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A32gb+micro+sd+card

Here is your source and like you see they are less than $10 even on Amazon, but when we talk about Switch carts we talking about bulks of millions bought directly from manufacturer, you have added value of box for cart, but at end all comes to that we talking about less than $10 for devs in any case. It seems that you don't realise that Switch carts are essentially same Nand memory from Micro SD card and that costs are very similar.

 

Also onother source, on Amazon you have 50x 50GB BluRay disks for around $100, so we talking around $2 for 50GB BluRay disk.

 

But why is that problem for devs if we dont talk about huge amount of money!? Simple because we talking about automatically smaller margin profit, even if we talk only about $2-3 smaller profit, that's quite number if we talk about hundred of thousands sold games. So for instance if we talking about $60 game on 32GB card that sold 500k units, compared to same $60 but on 8GB that sold same number, we talking about $1-1.5m less clear profit for dev.



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They trust Ninty a little more than in the past for what regards business relationships and not abusing its ownership of the platform in the competition between 1st and 3rd parties, and they like a lot the platform itself for current and predicted sales and also for the ease of development on it and the savings and synergies allowed also on SW by having portable and home console all in one device.



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YouTube has a lot to do with it.

Due to the pressure of having to produce content on a daily basis, the more prominent gaming YouTubers tended to move away from games that ate all their time (among them many of the traditional AAA bestsellers) and to look for games that were quick to assimilate, either because they were short or because their length came from procedural generation and repetition. This led to the rise of the Indie on PC ... but while may of those same games were available on the main two consoles, console gamers tended to be happier with the games that fitted the old AAA paradigm: great graphics, for example.

When Switch arrived there was a big demographic that had heard about Stardew Valley, Undertale, The Binding of Isaac etc. but which hadn't really got into them because they didn't want to sit at their PC for hours retrogaming and didn't have space for those games in their couch gaming lives. Suddenly the same YouTubers who pushed Indie games were raving about the Switch as the perfect place to play what is rapidly becoming a huge number of proven critical darlings. This was the opportunity to build new libraries of Indie games on a platform flexible enough to provide new opportunities for gaming sessions.

When we talk about Nintendo's third party problems from the past, we aren't really talking about independents. Third parties were always making money on Wii, but no one cared about their successes because no serious gamer wanted to play shovelware or a clearly sub-par port of a AAA game. Switch has what are objectively the worst versions of several AAA games from this generation and they haven't (as far as I know) set the world alight in terms of sales. The old Nintendo problems are still there, but masked by the success of both the Indies and the first-party games.

So why didn't this happen for the PS Vita, which is in many ways just as good as the Switch and had a head start? I've got to think that it has to do with the fact that the Vita exclusives never drove system sales and were abandoned too quickly. Sony must be doing some pretty intense soul searching because they could have headed off Nintendo's resurgence. Of course the Vita also has a smaller screen and less comfortable controls: the form factor of the Switch is also right.

Yet another element in the success of the Switch is market sentiment. People were desperate for it to succeed: people even wanted Nintendo to kill the 3DS because they were terrified that Nintendo fans would stay on the old handheld generation and that Switch would never develop sales momentum. When the successes started coming, everyone was trumpeting them, everywhere. As confidence grew you had more Switch owners and more of them were willing to invest in developing a library on the system. Suddenly all the graphs were trending upwards.



Miyamotoo said:
MajorMalfunction said:

Source? I want to believe you, but I need information. 

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=32gb+micro+sd+card&sprefix=32gb+micro%2Caps%2C245&crid=JGJYO1COQVFJ&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A32gb+micro+sd+card

Here is your source and like you see they are less than $10 even on Amazon, but when we talk about Switch carts we talking about bulks of millions bought directly from manufacturer, you have added value of box for cart, but at end all comes to that we talking about less than $10 for devs in any case. It seems that you don't realise that Switch carts are essentially same Nand memory from Micro SD card and that costs are very similar.

 

Also onother source, on Amazon you have 50x 50GB BluRay disks for around $100, so we talking around $2 for 50GB BluRay disk.

 

But why is that problem for devs if we dont talk about huge amount of money!? Simple because we talking about automatically smaller margin profit, even if we talk only about $2-3 smaller profit, that's quite number if we talk about hundred of thousands sold games. So for instance if we talking about $60 game on 32GB card that sold 500k units, compared to same $60 but on 8GB that sold same number, we talking about $1-1.5m less clear profit for dev.

Amazon is not Nintendo. Nintendo charge extra for custom media. It's all the same shit underneath for the most part, but creating custom media even using off the shelf parts has a cost, due to needing custom fab HW, and testing, etc. "The 60% more" than PS4/XB1 is *after* platform fees, packaging, etc. So 1.6  * N, where N is between 9-12 dollars, which is what I've read MS/Sony charges. Very out of date information, as I last read about in the PS2/OG Xbox era.



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GhaudePhaede010 said:
I am not seeing these amazing third-party sales. Other than Octopath, which I have explained on too many occasions why it was going to be and is a success, most of the bigger third-party titles are doing, "OK" to, "we are not going to talk about it" if we are being honest. Indies, which count as third-party developers are selling well because many of those games lend extremely well to the portable nature of the console.

But there haven't really been many (or any) major AAA third party games that have been released brand new on the Switch with their full capabilities. You have old ports from third parties (some of which were AAA games when they came out years ago), you have smaller games from third parties (which doesn't say anything about quality, just saying they're not gonna be blockbuster sellers), you have third party games releasing late after the other systems which means the hype is gone as it is no longer a new game, and usually when you do have a big third party game come out on the Switch so far it is a sports game that has features removed when there isn't any need to remove features other than they didn't feel like doing the work on the Switch version, and besides Nintendo hasn't had a strong sports gaming community since the SNES (and even then Genesis was seen as the better console for sports).

So yeah we haven't seen amazing third party sales for AAA games because there haven't been any of those games yet (and still aren't any announced as far as I know). The third party games Switch has been getting (smaller or old/late ports or indie) are selling well, sometimes extremely well, based on their quality, with sports games selling with a lower attach rate than other systems because all big sports gamers already have a ps4 or xbox for those games. There are probably lots of third party games which have sold between 500k and 1 million when including digital, and probably a decent amount that have sold over a million with digital or only-digital. And for what Nintendo has been getting from third party support so far those are very good figures.

Look at Octopath, not even a AAA game, just a high quality retro-looking game. But it released brand new on Switch (not a late port and paired down version from some other system) and didn't they announce that had shipped + sold digital over a million in just the first four weeks? That could sell 3 million lifetime and turn-based retro-graphics jrpg isn't exactly a blockbuster selling genre. With actual brand new quality releases third parties could easily have a plethora of multi-million selling games, especially as the Switch sales climbs higher up in the tens of millions.



MajorMalfunction said:
Miyamotoo said:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=32gb+micro+sd+card&sprefix=32gb+micro%2Caps%2C245&crid=JGJYO1COQVFJ&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3A32gb+micro+sd+card

Here is your source and like you see they are less than $10 even on Amazon, but when we talk about Switch carts we talking about bulks of millions bought directly from manufacturer, you have added value of box for cart, but at end all comes to that we talking about less than $10 for devs in any case. It seems that you don't realise that Switch carts are essentially same Nand memory from Micro SD card and that costs are very similar.

 

Also onother source, on Amazon you have 50x 50GB BluRay disks for around $100, so we talking around $2 for 50GB BluRay disk.

 

But why is that problem for devs if we dont talk about huge amount of money!? Simple because we talking about automatically smaller margin profit, even if we talk only about $2-3 smaller profit, that's quite number if we talk about hundred of thousands sold games. So for instance if we talking about $60 game on 32GB card that sold 500k units, compared to same $60 but on 8GB that sold same number, we talking about $1-1.5m less clear profit for dev.

Amazon is not Nintendo. Nintendo charge extra for custom media. It's all the same shit underneath for the most part, but creating custom media even using off the shelf parts has a cost, due to needing custom fab HW, and testing, etc. "The 60% more" than PS4/XB1 is *after* platform fees, packaging, etc. So 1.6  * N, where N is between 9-12 dollars, which is what I've read MS/Sony charges. Very out of date information, as I last read about in the PS2/OG Xbox era.

No its not, but we talking about same memory type, custom plastic media of that size cant make big difference in any case, and of course most of costs went at beginning for design, testing...and buy time price can be go only down. I dont talk about cost with fees, packaging, shipments...just only about difrence carts vs blu rad discs or 8GB vs 32GB, in both cases we talking about difference of few dollars.