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Forums - Politics Discussion - Democrats Vote To Give Trump Obscene $717 Billion Mílítary Budget

Aeolus451 said:
Eagle367 said:

"Maintaining world peace" hahaha 😂🤣 The US has destroyed world peace time and again and destroyed my area's piece for the last 4 decades. The US isn't a global peace keeper. It's more a global terrorist creator. If your stupid asses were out of Africa and the middle East, maybe you could slash that obscene budget in half and still easily defend your allies

Maybe I should of said our world peace instead. 😸

If your country didn't do stuff like hide Bin Laden, maybe just maybe...

Hey bin Ladin was your rogue operative. Your US used him. For all we know, he still was working for you. Slow clap for your army killing an old sick man instead of capturing him for questioning. You created Taliban and Al Qaeda. You had a much bigger role than Pakistan. You used Pakistan and afghanistan for your war games against the Soviets and it backfired. You tried the same Iin Iraq and Syria and it created daesh



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

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Hiku said:
Pemalite said:

Allot of countries also pay the USA in Billions of dollars every year in their mutual defense agreement... I mean, trump has only whinged about that how many times?

In regards to some countries... The USA has bases in Australia because they are trying to counter China, we also give you a ton of support with information, infrastructure, food, fuel, air-space... And we even help train your military... And we are also the USA's main conduit into the area, it's of a strategic importance. - So we are SAVING you money.

We don't actually need you here, you can't actually invade and control all of Australia successfully, regardless of what movies might try and say otherwise.

I would imagine the same is applicable for a ton of other nations as well.

Add to the fact that it was USA who forced Japan to only have an army for self defense, which barred them from “collective self-defense” — aiding friendly countries under attack — and thus were far more constrained than those of other nations, I wouldn't be talking smack about Japan's "reliance" on USA on this subject either.
USA forced them into that situation. Understandable immediately after WW2, but not in this day and age.

Apologies if anybody has already addressed this topic, but I thought I'd take the chance before reading the next 50 posts. I saw this on Tee Vee on the HBO around Feb-March. It though it was a good piece. You may find it interesting too. To be honest, aside from nuclear proliferation, I would like to see Japan set loose from it's chains, and allowed to build it's military as they see fit.

 



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."

Aeolus451 said:

You have to consider the role the US military. It functions as a security force for all of North America, South Korea, Japan, EU, etc. It's easy to be snarky about US defense spending when your own country doesn't have to spend much due to the US protecting your shit and maintaining world peace.

Yeah, you can try and jump down from your high horse now, the world would be perfectly fine if the US pulled out of most of the countries it is in right now. I guarantee you that.



Puppyroach said:
Aeolus451 said:

You have to consider the role the US military. It functions as a security force for all of North America, South Korea, Japan, EU, etc. It's easy to be snarky about US defense spending when your own country doesn't have to spend much due to the US protecting your shit and maintaining world peace.

Yeah, you can try and jump down from your high horse now, the world would be perfectly fine if the US pulled out of most of the countries it is in right now. I guarantee you that.

We honestly should, besides the allies that actually appreciate or need the help. We already bail out our own retards, we don’t need the worlds problems. Give the foreign aid to our debt instead. 



numberwang said:

Comparing numbers based on nominal exchange rates for different sized countries is misleading. Do you think a Chinese soldier costs as much as an American soldier? National spending has to be compared as a percentage of GDP.

But is an American soldier better trained than a Chinese one? Better bang for buck.

Hiku said:

Add to the fact that it was USA who forced Japan to only have an army for self defense, which barred them from “collective self-defense” — aiding friendly countries under attack — and thus were far more constrained than those of other nations, I wouldn't be talking smack about Japan's "reliance" on USA on this subject either.
USA forced them into that situation. Understandable immediately after WW2, but not in this day and age.

I think in Japans case they could bolster their military efforts, I think they have shown their capability to get on really well with western powers since WW2.

Hiku said:

If Chinese soldier wages are that much lower, while taking into account how much taxes they have to spend, then that's certainly a factor to consider. I'll have to look more closely into this later, and see how it correlates to their GDP.

Though keep in mind that things like R&D for new weapons and nuclear programs also fall under "defense budget". And USA has about half of the worlds nuclear arsenal.
We can't just look at soldier wages and call it a day.

Even on the tech front, China has shown an insane ability to manufacture and reproduce opponents efforts for a fraction of a cost, it's obviously lower quality, but I wouldn't underestimate their ability to replicate and mass produce.


Bofferbrauer2 said:

China has more soldiers, so what? China has 4 times more population, is a bigger country and the one with the most neighboring countries (14, not counting any close countries across the sea). So it's only natural that the country has a larger military as it has more space to cover. India has a bigger army mostly because of it's huge population.

I didn't expect North Korean Army to be this big. Sitting between China, Russia and South Korea, I expected a very large one, but that's ludicrous in size

The USA also has large chunks of Europe, Oceania, Latin America and more backing them, which will allow the USA to have the military edge for decades to come, it's not just a numbers game of military personnel.
Information is one of the biggest key aspects of it all.

HollyGamer said:

But u need to admitted US are Australian allies and both need each other unless u one get threatened by CCP . So you don't have any choice at the moment because Trumps is the US President and his cabinet are opposing China. And also Australia also bough many F-35 from US. 

Australia has assisted the USA in every single war the USA has engaged in since WW2.
We didn't have to. We chose to.
Why? Because we share a common history, we share a common culture, we are as close as Allies typically can get.

If we hypothetically elected a new government and they had a mandated proposal taken to the election to kick the Americans out, you wouldn't have a choice in the matter, Trump or not. You would be forced to leave, if you think Trump holds any power here... You would be highly mistaken, especially after insulting our prime minister.
Again, we don't actually need the USA, Australia is an entire continent that is extremely inhospitable and thus not really logistically feasible to invade and control... And we know it, it's become a meme at this point.

And we aren't actually enemies of China... In-fact, we profit more from China than any other nation due to their massive reliance on our vast resources, which is simply another reason why the USA would want us on their side, to hurt China's manufacturing potential if war did hypothetically happen.
In-fact a few of our politicians have already proposed to cut back on working with the USA in order to bolster our relationship with China, so it will be interesting to see how that conversation goes in the future.

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/does-australia-really-need-the-us-alliance-20140512-zraey.html

As for the F-35, that is a contentious issue, it's overpriced, under delivered, we could have gotten a better deal elsewhere.

Last edited by Pemalite - on 03 August 2018

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Puppyroach said:
Aeolus451 said:

You have to consider the role the US military. It functions as a security force for all of North America, South Korea, Japan, EU, etc. It's easy to be snarky about US defense spending when your own country doesn't have to spend much due to the US protecting your shit and maintaining world peace.

Yeah, you can try and jump down from your high horse now, the world would be perfectly fine if the US pulled out of most of the countries it is in right now. I guarantee you that.

That's wishful thinking. At the very least South Korea, Japan and Israel would disagree. Most of the EU would disagree when they're under threat.



Ka-pi96 said:
Nighthawk117 said:

It's called REVENGE.  You might get luckly and kill some of our people but we will hit back at you with overwhelming force - no matter where your hiding on this planet.  Ask any alive Al Qaeda or Taliban member about America's resolve and capabilities.

And in doing so you've created a whole lot more terrorists who are also seeking revenge. Congrats on creating ISIS by the way.

Did ISIS kill 3,000 American lives in one day?  For that matter, tell me how many Americans have been killed by ISIS losers?



Ok, people...Let's advance this debate...

Would the world be safer/more peaceful/less terrorist attacks if the USA spent say about $100 billion dollars on military spending as opposed to $700 billion?

And, would other countries like Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc. not capitalize on the USA's unilateral disarmament?



KLAMarine said: 

I can't help but think back to the years prior to WW2. What if Britain and France had exercised greater force against Nazi Germany as Hitler was tearing apart the Treaty of Versailles?

They only would have had 2 real opportunities for that, when Germany reintroduced conscription in 34 and when they reoccupied the demilitarized Rhineland in 36.

However, in both cases Germany had the public opinion on their side. France and especially Britain couldn't intervene at the time without extreme backlashes. UK was very pro Germany at the time and the population was protesting in favor of Germany as opposed the perceived hawkish attitude of the french. Both also favored a stronger Germany to oppose the Soviet Union, hence why there were only weak official protests in 34 when conscription got reintroduced.

Both also saw that the treaty of Versailles was too strict as it crippled Germany both militarily and economically (they lost over a third of their iron and coal deposits, the main driving forces of the economies of the time) and wasn't fair to them, so loosening up a bit was understandable. The thing is the Weimar Republic was thinking around the constrains already (The 100k army limit got used to keep all the officers and just released the normal soldiers of their duties, in 1928 over 65k of the 100k were officers; Tanks and planes got produced in dummy or acquired foreign companies and their crews trained in the soviet union, who got equally marginalized; and Germany developed the "pocket battleship" to keep in size constrains but put on heavy armament and engines to be both stronger and faster than comparable ships, and all weaponry developed during that time outside the constrains of the versailles treaty got an 18 at the end of their name for 1918 to hide the fact it was developed under them instead of imperial Germany), so they didn't need to ask to loosen the reins on the treaty. The fact that they didn't however did also cost them the election to more nationalistic entities, being a coalition of DVP (imperialistic, wanted to bring back the Kaiser), DNVP (fascists, but more like Mussolini or Franco and nowhere near as crazed as Hitler) and NSDAP (the Nazi Party) as the leading party of the bloc.

By 38 it was clear that the Germans had been building up a huge war arsenal, but the armament industry in the UK and France were only slowly getting back on track after they basically demilitarized themselves to cut the costs. This was necessary because World War one was so costly it crippled their economies and needed drastic cutbacks to get the economy back on track. Hence why they tried to buy time with their Appeasement politic - and why they didn't attack in 39: Their armies still weren't ready at that point and when they got ready for an offensive, Poland had long fallen.

If France had intervened in 1936 in the remilitarisation of the Rhineland Hitler possibly wouldn't have become bold enough to start a war. But that's a big "IF", it could just as well resulted in Germany waiting longer to be better prepared for war, for instance.



Defence industry is very important for USA economy. Also, unlike other expenses, defence ones enjoy a lot of exceptions in world trade rules and international agreements, so spending a lot on national defence industry (and also on non-defence items consumed by the national defence, like food, office supplies, etc), a nation can actually give its industry state aid without it being legally considered so.



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