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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Why does GT not get any acclaim in mainstream media?

GOWTLOZ said:
trasharmdsister12 said:

Not taking sides in this discussion. Just providing some information. I already spoke my part on the matter showing articles that are revisiting GTS and giving it praise for its continued support. And I plan on eventually picking it up over Forza 7 when I have more time to put into it. It's going to look so damn nice on my OLED. 

"The premium cars are those that have been built from the ground up for the new game. They feature internal cockpits and enhanced crash damage (components will drop off in addition to some deformation), and are considerably more detailed in general than the standard equivalents, which appear to have been imported from work done on Gran Turismo 4.

There are also more detailed renditions of some of the cars introduced in the PSP version of GT - the Bugatti Veyron, to name one - but while they are obviously more refined in appearance than they were in the handheld game, they still don't hold a candle to Polyphony's work on the premium cars."

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=2

- GT5 launched with 200+ Premium cars. I think it's safe to say that means less than 250: https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

- Forza 3 launched with 400+ (405 to be more exact without DLC packs or preorder bonuses): http://ca.ign.com/faqs/2009/forza-motorsport-3-car-list-1033443

- Forza 4 launched with 500+: http://www.onlineracedriver.com/2011/07/20/forza-motorsport-4-full-official-car-list/

Cars in Forza 3/4 were all of similar quality standard. So not sure if you count those as "premium" or not. But they had more normalized quality cars than GT5 had premium cars. 

GT6 has 450 premium cars. More cars than Forza 3 had.

You're right on the PSP cars, some were new to the series on PSP which had 820 cars and some of those like the Bugatti Veyron were the basic designs of the GT5 and GT6 versions. But standard cars got an overhaul in GT6 and look better than GT5 standard cars.

Azzanation said:

So you are a automobile engineer? You claim Forza sounds off.. what is your opinion on the vacuum sounds from all the GT games that has always been criticized by majority of reviewers and gamers over the world? I use to be a car mechanic myself and I can completely disagree with you on that on.

As for your 2nd part, that's not exactly how it works. 1 good game from a completely different genre does not stop another good game from another. Horizon, GOW, Uncharted or whatever game you are referring to would not be affecting GTS sales. Example - That's like saying Fifa 18 didn't sell because Battlefield 4 took the market by storm. No.. two completely different games meant for two completely different audiences. Car fans are car fans, soccer fans are soccer fans, RPG fans are RPG fans and than you have fans of just games in general. GT is focused towards the car fans obviously.

A more realistic reason why the GT series has been in decline is due to the car racing market growing. Back when GT was selling, what was its competition? It sold well on PS1 because it was 1 of a kind and had no competition. Compare that to today where you have Project Cars, Assetto Corsa and Forza who continue to push the bar high.

GT has become less popular because GT has been absent from the market for half a decade. Polyphony needs to get there game on, there's too much competition now to just slowly release titles and offer minimal content.

If Sony wants to compete in the racing market again they need to expand Polyphony, they are too small and wont be able to keep up with the industry leading Turn 10 who can not only produce games every 2 years, but also succeed in the overall quality and package of a car racing game.  

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate.

Your second point is a misunderstanding of what I said. I said that GT is declining in popularity but also other Sony games are growing in popularity which has allowed GT to be relegated to a mid tier series. Sony never had the huge successes outside of GT series before this gen, and when they did they were mostly one offs like LBP which centered around the premise of creation so it could never stay relevant for a lot of sequels. Uncharted, TLOU, Horizon and GOW are going to stay relevant and for a longer time. The increased popularity of RPG's has factored in the success of some of these games. Its also real that the racing game market is declining. Racing games are barely relevant in the USA and Japan, and mostly sell in Europe and PAL regions which isn't enough for them to be blockbusters.

Industry leading Turn 10? Hahaha. Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales. Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.


First of all, GT6  had 350 premiums, not 450. 

Forza 7 lootboxes were never purchaseable by real money, so they werent making a single cent of it. Actually, the game doesnt have any microtransactions what so ever. So it's not possible for the crates to be bad business practices. Now c'mon, almost every single game has paid dlc (even project cars 2).

And Forza 7 is probably way ahead of assetto corsa in sales. You are overestimating Assetto Corsa sales. GT Sport is saved by the fact that Playstation rules Europe, or else Forza would've pulled even (or even taken over) a while ago.

Forza isn't supposed to be a full simulation, it's supposed to be welcome to new players. Same with GT Sport. Both are simcade games.

And that last part is blatantly false. Forza 6/7 are regarded as some of the best racing games of this generation in the media (probably only behind the Horizon games). GT Sport doesn't make a scratch on them.

 



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GOWTLOZ said:
trasharmdsister12 said:

Not taking sides in this discussion. Just providing some information. I already spoke my part on the matter showing articles that are revisiting GTS and giving it praise for its continued support. And I plan on eventually picking it up over Forza 7 when I have more time to put into it. It's going to look so damn nice on my OLED. 

"The premium cars are those that have been built from the ground up for the new game. They feature internal cockpits and enhanced crash damage (components will drop off in addition to some deformation), and are considerably more detailed in general than the standard equivalents, which appear to have been imported from work done on Gran Turismo 4.

There are also more detailed renditions of some of the cars introduced in the PSP version of GT - the Bugatti Veyron, to name one - but while they are obviously more refined in appearance than they were in the handheld game, they still don't hold a candle to Polyphony's work on the premium cars."

Source: https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis?page=2

- GT5 launched with 200+ Premium cars. I think it's safe to say that means less than 250: https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

- Forza 3 launched with 400+ (405 to be more exact without DLC packs or preorder bonuses): http://ca.ign.com/faqs/2009/forza-motorsport-3-car-list-1033443

- Forza 4 launched with 500+: http://www.onlineracedriver.com/2011/07/20/forza-motorsport-4-full-official-car-list/

Cars in Forza 3/4 were all of similar quality standard. So not sure if you count those as "premium" or not. But they had more normalized quality cars than GT5 had premium cars. 

GT6 has 450 premium cars. More cars than Forza 3 had.

You're right on the PSP cars, some were new to the series on PSP which had 820 cars and some of those like the Bugatti Veyron were the basic designs of the GT5 and GT6 versions. But standard cars got an overhaul in GT6 and look better than GT5 standard cars.

Azzanation said:

So you are a automobile engineer? You claim Forza sounds off.. what is your opinion on the vacuum sounds from all the GT games that has always been criticized by majority of reviewers and gamers over the world? I use to be a car mechanic myself and I can completely disagree with you on that on.

As for your 2nd part, that's not exactly how it works. 1 good game from a completely different genre does not stop another good game from another. Horizon, GOW, Uncharted or whatever game you are referring to would not be affecting GTS sales. Example - That's like saying Fifa 18 didn't sell because Battlefield 4 took the market by storm. No.. two completely different games meant for two completely different audiences. Car fans are car fans, soccer fans are soccer fans, RPG fans are RPG fans and than you have fans of just games in general. GT is focused towards the car fans obviously.

A more realistic reason why the GT series has been in decline is due to the car racing market growing. Back when GT was selling, what was its competition? It sold well on PS1 because it was 1 of a kind and had no competition. Compare that to today where you have Project Cars, Assetto Corsa and Forza who continue to push the bar high.

GT has become less popular because GT has been absent from the market for half a decade. Polyphony needs to get there game on, there's too much competition now to just slowly release titles and offer minimal content.

If Sony wants to compete in the racing market again they need to expand Polyphony, they are too small and wont be able to keep up with the industry leading Turn 10 who can not only produce games every 2 years, but also succeed in the overall quality and package of a car racing game. 

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate.

Your second point is a misunderstanding of what I said. I said that GT is declining in popularity but also other Sony games are growing in popularity which has allowed GT to be relegated to a mid tier series. Sony never had the huge successes outside of GT series before this gen, and when they did they were mostly one offs like LBP which centered around the premise of creation so it could never stay relevant for a lot of sequels. Uncharted, TLOU, Horizon and GOW are going to stay relevant and for a longer time. The increased popularity of RPG's has factored in the success of some of these games. Its also real that the racing game market is declining. Racing games are barely relevant in the USA and Japan, and mostly sell in Europe and PAL regions which isn't enough for them to be blockbusters.

Industry leading Turn 10? Hahaha. Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales. Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.

DonFerrari said:

I'm saying that if we have Fifa, CoD and other very big games launching together with your game they will impact the sales. It have happened every single time.

Not making excuses, anyone on here would be able to explain to you this very simple concept.

Please show me how PC2 and AC selling less than 1M combined on PS4 made GT go from 15M on GT3 to 5M on GTS.

To Azzanation, GT Sport offers better physics, sounds, some unique tracks, Vision GT cars, a Red Bull prototype and the best HDR and Wide Colour visuals that are there on the market.

Its also unfair the compare GT 3 lifetime sales to GT Sport's current sales which by the way are less than 5m not at 5m. Perhaps even 4m. Still bigger than most of its competition.

GTS will reach 5M, it may be unfair perhaps, but PC2+AC that sells less than 1M doesn't make another game go from 15 to 5.

Azzanation said:

DonFerrari said:

I'm saying that if we have Fifa, CoD and other very big games launching together with your game they will impact the sales. It have happened every single time.

Not making excuses, anyone on here would be able to explain to you this very simple concept.

Please show me how PC2 and AC selling less than 1M combined on PS4 made GT go from 15M on GT3 to 5M on GTS.

Umm games don't have to sell 10m+ to make another game irrelevant. The fact there are 5 other better car racing games on the market makes GTS a hard sell. GTS launched as a disaster so its sales were hit hard, not because of other games released at the time.

GOWTLOZ said:

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate. 

GT Sport offers better physics, sounds, some unique tracks, Vision GT cars, a Red Bull prototype and the best HDR and Wide Colour visuals that are there on the market.

Its also unfair the compare GT 3 lifetime sales to GT Sport's current sales which by the way are less than 5m not at 5m. Perhaps even 4m. Still bigger than most of its competition.

GTS still doesn't sound better than Forza 7, both games have gone in different directions with the sound. And id still prefer FM7s. Maybe that's just our preference on that.

You don't think Turn 10 is Industry leading? Well lets look at the bigger picture. FM7 is a better package than any other car racing game on the market, heck even FM5 is a better package than GTS and that was a launch X1 game 4 years ago, FM has received the best scores across the board this gen when it comes to car racing. For the past 4 years, a Forza title has taken home the best car RGOTY awards. Might as well argue with the awards and critics, not just me. 

Sales does not, and never leads to a quality product. There are a lot of avenues to sales. Drive Club went on to sell 2m+ units, and that company folded shortly after. PS4 also has double the user base and GTS was also sold at a very cheap launch price.

You talk up GTS for its HDR etc well than lets talk about FM7 running at a pure 4k on the X right with HDR? GTS does not look leaps and bounds better either, you would barely notice a difference in the graphics especially if you are running FM7 on the X. 

So tell me where does GTS hold the crown?

Best Simulator goes to PC2

Best Car Package goes to FM7

Everything you mention as positives about GTS has been done before or better in PC2 or FM7. GTS also has the worst crash damage on there car models. and the least amount of content and features. You know you have done something wrong when your game releases with less content than FM5 a 4 year old title.

So these other 5 games show that GTS is terrible but they don't sell? A customer thinks like... well I wanted to buy GTS but since FM7 is better I won't buy any of them? Same for PC and AC?

I can't even say you miss logic, because that would be saying you were at least trying.

If customers though any of those 5 games were better than GTS they would have bought them at least in some considerable numbers. Sure none would need to push 10M alone, but to have all of them together sell less than GTS and all combined still much lower than previous numbers certainly show that your explanation is lacking.

PC1 was very bad in simulation, I all about finished and was close to platinum when I got bored, and I know a lot of people got burned by it and didn't try PC2 (see the sales). AC sales are almost neglible. So nope, GT sales have much more to do with simulation genre losing sales and GT own decisions than supposely better games taking the space.

flashfire926 said:
GOWTLOZ said:

GT6 has 450 premium cars. More cars than Forza 3 had.

You're right on the PSP cars, some were new to the series on PSP which had 820 cars and some of those like the Bugatti Veyron were the basic designs of the GT5 and GT6 versions. But standard cars got an overhaul in GT6 and look better than GT5 standard cars.

Woah woah woah. Were you following our discussion at all? I never said the old GT games sounded good, they were terrible. GT Sport does sound better than Forza, which isn't terrible but the sound effects in Forza are blown to unrealistic proportions which sounds nice but isn't accurate.

Your second point is a misunderstanding of what I said. I said that GT is declining in popularity but also other Sony games are growing in popularity which has allowed GT to be relegated to a mid tier series. Sony never had the huge successes outside of GT series before this gen, and when they did they were mostly one offs like LBP which centered around the premise of creation so it could never stay relevant for a lot of sequels. Uncharted, TLOU, Horizon and GOW are going to stay relevant and for a longer time. The increased popularity of RPG's has factored in the success of some of these games. Its also real that the racing game market is declining. Racing games are barely relevant in the USA and Japan, and mostly sell in Europe and PAL regions which isn't enough for them to be blockbusters.

Industry leading Turn 10? Hahaha. Forza Motorsport 7 is basically the poorest simulator of real world physics in the sim racing genre, behind GT Sport and far behind PC2, Assetto Corsa and RFactor. It doesn't have good business practices either, with paid DLCs and lootboxes for such a long period when the game is at its most relevant. Its behind GT Sport, Assetto Corsa Competizione and PC2 in graphics and sound. Its behind GT Sport and probably Assetto Corsa in sales. Where is the industry leading part? Maybe in critical success, but its perception in the gaming media hardly makes for an industry leading game when its behind the competition in every other way that counts.


First of all, GT6  had 350 premiums, not 450. 

Forza 7 lootboxes were never purchaseable by real money, so they werent making a single cent of it. Actually, the game doesnt have any microtransactions what so ever. So it's not possible for the crates to be bad business practices. Now c'mon, almost every single game has paid dlc (even project cars 2).

And Forza 7 is probably way ahead of assetto corsa in sales. You are overestimating Assetto Corsa sales. GT Sport is saved by the fact that Playstation rules Europe, or else Forza would've pulled even (or even taken over) a while ago.

Forza isn't supposed to be a full simulation, it's supposed to be welcome to new players. Same with GT Sport. Both are simcade games.

And that last part is blatantly false. Forza 6/7 are regarded as some of the best racing games of this generation in the media (probably only behind the Horizon games). GT Sport doesn't make a scratch on them.

 

Yes yes yes,,, sure sure sure... all because of Europe. How much did Forza series sold previous gen when X360 had sales close to PS3 in Europe?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said: 

So these other 5 games show that GTS is terrible but they don't sell? A customer thinks like... well I wanted to buy GTS but since FM7 is better I won't buy any of them? Same for PC and AC?

I can't even say you miss logic, because that would be saying you were at least trying.

If customers though any of those 5 games were better than GTS they would have bought them at least in some considerable numbers. Sure none would need to push 10M alone, but to have all of them together sell less than GTS and all combined still much lower than previous numbers certainly show that your explanation is lacking.

PC1 was very bad in simulation, I all about finished and was close to platinum when I got bored, and I know a lot of people got burned by it and didn't try PC2 (see the sales). AC sales are almost neglible. So nope, GT sales have much more to do with simulation genre losing sales and GT own decisions than supposely better games taking the space.

Again with the sales.. omg sales don't mean everything. GTS sold and will continue to sell up to 5m because its marketed by Sony, its bundled, it was dirt cheap at launch and many other reasons etc. 

Most of the Sim racing fans went on to buy other games, probably from FM5,6,7, PC1,2, Assetto Corsa and many more racing games on the market.

Let me tell you something about sales. Why did Sony close down Evolution studios? There game DriveClub went on to sell 2m+ units.. but but but the sales you say? 2m is considered decent for any game outside big franchise, it even outsold FM7. Why did they close? Why is Turn 10 still around? Please explain.

I am also not hinting that PD are going to shut down but Sony needs to expand them to compete with the Industry leaders. 

Why would a Sim racing fan go out to buy GTS when PC1 and 2 are available on PS4 and are better Sim games with more content? Why would a new gamer go out and buy GTS when they see FM6 and FM7 on other platforms that are better games? < I am basing my logic off the critics.

Also you don't know how well these games have sold digitally, I can say a lot of my friends who were massive Sim racing fans last gen went on to buy PCs this gen and decked out there rooms with Racing wheels and chairs, they also brought there copies of PC2 and FM7 digitally, guess that doesn't show up on the sales charts, see my point? 

The Industry has moved away from Sim Racing due to the amount of options out there now. GT was king when it was the only option, today you cannot release a game with less content then your competitors or the only sales numbers you will see are those Bundled with the PS4. 



Azzanation said:

DonFerrari said: 

So these other 5 games show that GTS is terrible but they don't sell? A customer thinks like... well I wanted to buy GTS but since FM7 is better I won't buy any of them? Same for PC and AC?

I can't even say you miss logic, because that would be saying you were at least trying.

If customers though any of those 5 games were better than GTS they would have bought them at least in some considerable numbers. Sure none would need to push 10M alone, but to have all of them together sell less than GTS and all combined still much lower than previous numbers certainly show that your explanation is lacking.

PC1 was very bad in simulation, I all about finished and was close to platinum when I got bored, and I know a lot of people got burned by it and didn't try PC2 (see the sales). AC sales are almost neglible. So nope, GT sales have much more to do with simulation genre losing sales and GT own decisions than supposely better games taking the space.

Again with the sales.. omg sales don't mean everything. GTS sold and will continue to sell up to 5m because its marketed by Sony, its bundled, it was dirt cheap at launch and many other reasons etc. 

Most of the Sim racing fans went on to buy other games, probably from FM5,6,7, PC1,2, Assetto Corsa and many more racing games on the market.

Let me tell you something about sales. Why did Sony close down Evolution studios? There game DriveClub went on to sell 2m+ units.. but but but the sales you say? 2m is considered decent for any game outside big franchise, it even outsold FM7. Why did they close? Why is Turn 10 still around? Please explain.

I am also not hinting that PD are going to shut down but Sony needs to expand them to compete with the Industry leaders. 

Why would a Sim racing fan go out to buy GTS when PC1 and 2 are available on PS4 and are better Sim games with more content? Why would a new gamer go out and buy GTS when they see FM6 and 7 on another platforms? 

Also you don't know how well these games have sold digitally, I can say a lot of my friends who were massive Sim racing fans last gen went on to buy PCs this gen and decked out there rooms with Racing wheels and chairs, they also brought there copies of PC2 and FM7 digitally, guess that doesn't show up on the sales charts, see my point? 

The Industry has moved away from Sim Racing due to the amount of options out there now. GT was king when it was the only option, today you cannot release a game with less content then your competitors or the only sales numbers you will see are those Bundled with the PS4. 

Forza is marketed by MS, massively bundled, etc. And doesn't sell similar. Still I ask you, how would something lose space because the other product is better and those other products won't sell? That is the fault of your argument, but you seem to not be able to do the 1+1 here. You keep saying they gone to buy other games, but the numbers don't even get near.

Turn10 is still around because MS subsides their costs to have some diversity, to market their own system. DC not only sold low numbers but also got bad reception.

Your definition of leader here seems to be the same as the one for MS being successful, it is just self made defition to brag about.

GTS is a much better simulator than FM and you know it, PC1 was a bad sim that burned people to buy PC2. The sales here show it all. If people really have forfeit GT on GTS because of FM7, PC2 or AC, those games should have seem a lot more sales because FM7+PC2+AC doesn't even come near 10M to explain the change from 15M GT3, 12+M GT5 to 5M GTS will probably get this year. Again, if the sales didn't transfer to those other games then it wasn't them the main reason for the loss of sales.

The old excuse of digital? So GTS which have 3+M physical and about 1-1.5M digital is by some crazy reason the lowest digital attach ratio in a way that FM or PC that have less than 2M phisical would have like 3M digital? Yeahhhh seems like the excuses you used for Halo 5.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

Yes yes yes,,, sure sure sure... all because of Europe. How much did Forza series sold previous gen when X360 had sales close to PS3 in Europe?

Xbox 360 was way behind PS3 in Europe .



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DonFerrari said:

Forza is marketed by MS, massively bundled, etc. And doesn't sell similar. Still I ask you, how would something lose space because the other product is better and those other products won't sell? That is the fault of your argument, but you seem to not be able to do the 1+1 here. You keep saying they gone to buy other games, but the numbers don't even get near.

Turn10 is still around because MS subsides their costs to have some diversity, to market their own system. DC not only sold low numbers but also got bad reception.

Your definition of leader here seems to be the same as the one for MS being successful, it is just self made defition to brag about.

GTS is a much better simulator than FM and you know it, PC1 was a bad sim that burned people to buy PC2. The sales here show it all. If people really have forfeit GT on GTS because of FM7, PC2 or AC, those games should have seem a lot more sales because FM7+PC2+AC doesn't even come near 10M to explain the change from 15M GT3, 12+M GT5 to 5M GTS will probably get this year. Again, if the sales didn't transfer to those other games then it wasn't them the main reason for the loss of sales.

The old excuse of digital? So GTS which have 3+M physical and about 1-1.5M digital is by some crazy reason the lowest digital attach ratio in a way that FM or PC that have less than 2M phisical would have like 3M digital? Yeahhhh seems like the excuses you used for Halo 5.

Wow Don you still amaze me. GTS didn't sell well because it lacks as a quality racer. Sure its Simulation is good but so is PC2 which does everything plus more than GTS, a game that wasn't around when GT was in its prime. Maybe they didn't buy the other games but that doesn't excuse the fact this game's launch was a disaster. Forza never really sold great numbers and it doesn't have to plus GT is on a user base more than double the X1s, but I love how you ignore that fact and also ignore the fact GTS was sold at dirt cheap prices at launch. 

I laugh every time you say Xbox isn't successful.. I mean I guess there announcements of adding 5 new studios and continue to make Xbox consoles must be all for losing money. MS just know how to lose money don't they ;)

Also as it stands the highest rated racing games this gen goes to FM6 and FH3 and soon to be FH4. Sounds like a market leader to me. But keep thinking otherwise. GTS is the lowest reviewed racing game this gen aside from DriveClub. Theres a reason why it has gotten its reviews.

So if you want to question the market leaders well lets look at it like this, in a rank from highest scores.

#1 Forza Horizon 3 (91)

#2 Forza Motorsport 6 (87)

#3 Forza Motorsport 7 (86)

#4 Forza Horizon 2 (86)

#5 Assetto Corsa (85)

#6 Project Cars (82)

#7 Forza Motorsport 5 (79) <4 year old launch title

#8 Gran Turismo Sport (75)

#9 DriveClub (71)

Who's the market leader again?

Last edited by Azzanation - on 05 August 2018

flashfire926 said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes yes yes,,, sure sure sure... all because of Europe. How much did Forza series sold previous gen when X360 had sales close to PS3 in Europe?

Xbox 360 was way behind PS3 in Europe .

Nope. At time of GT5 release

PS3 total = 43M -> Europe = 16.6M

X360 = 47M -> Europe = 15.4M

GT5 sold 12M total

FM3 (launch 2009) = 5.5M and FM4 (launch 2011) = 4.6M

You want to say that the over 6M difference between GT and FM was due to PS3 being much ahead of X360?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
flashfire926 said:

Xbox 360 was way behind PS3 in Europe .

Nope. At time of GT5 release

PS3 total = 43M -> Europe = 16.6M

X360 = 47M -> Europe = 15.4M

GT5 sold 12M total

FM3 (launch 2009) = 5.5M and FM4 (launch 2011) = 4.6M

You want to say that the over 6M difference between GT and FM was due to PS3 being much ahead of X360?

Never mind, I always thought PS3 dominated Europe for some reason.

Anyways, my argument was based on this gen, not the last.



Bet with Intrinsic:

The Switch will outsell 3DS (based on VGchartz numbers), according to me, while Intrinsic thinks the opposite will hold true. One month avatar control for the loser's avatar.

Azzanation said:

DonFerrari said:

Forza is marketed by MS, massively bundled, etc. And doesn't sell similar. Still I ask you, how would something lose space because the other product is better and those other products won't sell? That is the fault of your argument, but you seem to not be able to do the 1+1 here. You keep saying they gone to buy other games, but the numbers don't even get near.

Turn10 is still around because MS subsides their costs to have some diversity, to market their own system. DC not only sold low numbers but also got bad reception.

Your definition of leader here seems to be the same as the one for MS being successful, it is just self made defition to brag about.

GTS is a much better simulator than FM and you know it, PC1 was a bad sim that burned people to buy PC2. The sales here show it all. If people really have forfeit GT on GTS because of FM7, PC2 or AC, those games should have seem a lot more sales because FM7+PC2+AC doesn't even come near 10M to explain the change from 15M GT3, 12+M GT5 to 5M GTS will probably get this year. Again, if the sales didn't transfer to those other games then it wasn't them the main reason for the loss of sales.

The old excuse of digital? So GTS which have 3+M physical and about 1-1.5M digital is by some crazy reason the lowest digital attach ratio in a way that FM or PC that have less than 2M phisical would have like 3M digital? Yeahhhh seems like the excuses you used for Halo 5.

Wow Don you still amaze me. GTS didn't sell well because it lacks as a quality racer. Sure its Simulation is good but so is PC2 which does everything plus more than GTS, a game that wasn't around when GT was in its prime. Maybe they didn't buy the other games but that doesn't excuse the fact this game's launch was a disaster. Forza never really sold great numbers and it doesn't have to plus GT is on a user base more than double the X1s, but I love how you ignore that fact and also ignore the fact GTS was sold at dirt cheap prices at launch. 

I laugh every time you say Xbox isn't successful.. I mean I guess there announcements of adding 5 new studios and continue to make Xbox consoles must be all for losing money. MS just know how to lose money don't they ;)

Also as it stands the highest rated racing games this gen goes to FM6 and FH3 and soon to be FH4. Sounds like a market leader to me. But keep thinking otherwise. GTS is the lowest reviewed racing game this gen aside from DriveClub. Theres a reason why it has gotten its reviews.

So if you want to question the market leaders well lets look at it like this, in a rank from highest scores.

#1 Forza Horizon 3 (91)

#2 Forza Motorsport 6 (87)

#3 Forza Motorsport 7 (86)

#4 Forza Horizon 2 (86)

#5 Assetto Corsa (85)

#6 Project Cars (82)

#7 Forza Motorsport 5 (79) <4 year old launch title

#8 Gran Turismo Sport (75)

#9 DriveClub (71)

X360 sold about same as PS3, that didn't made FM sell more than GT. But surely FM sold more at the time. You fail so hard on the userbase comparison and keep doing it. A game that sells 2M on a 30M userbase wouldn't really sell 5M on 80M userbase. Tie Ratio isn't nearly linear as you think.

Go look at the thread of Multiplats of PS4 X1 and Switch. And you'll see that some games have about 50/50 between PS4 and Switch even with over 4x difference in userbase. Others will have Switch in front, others will have PS4 much more than the userbase would explain.

If the game sold like 40-60% attach ratio I could certainly agree that userbase was a limitatot. But when it sell under 10% attach ratio it is hardly an excuse.

GTS launched at 60USD and big part of the sales were full priced. Sure it had fast price cut but that wasn't launch price "dirty cheap". But still doesn't explain how all the bundling of FM this gen never helped it have big numbers.

Don't worry about your laughs. You never fail to show you can't even prove any of your arguments to the end. Have you found how many Gold accounts are among those XBL numbers MS announced? Or do you still think XBL Total being a little higher than PS+ only is some kind of achievement?

High scores doesn't show any lead. Or does when counting total sales of consoles or games the critic evaluation transform those numbers and make xbox win?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

flashfire926 said:
DonFerrari said:

Nope. At time of GT5 release

PS3 total = 43M -> Europe = 16.6M

X360 = 47M -> Europe = 15.4M

GT5 sold 12M total

FM3 (launch 2009) = 5.5M and FM4 (launch 2011) = 4.6M

You want to say that the over 6M difference between GT and FM was due to PS3 being much ahead of X360?

Never mind, I always thought PS3 dominated Europe for some reason.

Anyways, my argument was based on this gen, not the last.

X360 had a good lead before PS3 got traction and at the end PS3 got a good lead... but most of the time they were "considerably near". Totally different situation than this gen of course.

They may be plethora reasons for why GT always sold much more than Forza and also for why GT lost so many sales in GT6 and GTS compared to GT5 and prior. But none of them have to do with Azz reasoning of other sims or racers being better (but not selling, so where is the transfer of sales), size of userbase (both have a small attach ratio for that to be a reason), bundling (both FM and GT have them in spades). Any reason for why GT dropped sales must be found within either GT itself or the market shrinking for simulators in consoles.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."