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Forums - Gaming Discussion - If Microsoft's measure of success has changed, why hasn't ours?

Mr Puggsly said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Going from 84 million units sold to 45-55 million units sold isn't already a massive flop? Buying numerous studios is something that software publishers do as well. Sega recently bought all of Atlus. Does that mean Sega has plans for Dreamcast 2? I guess they have said that they are making more consoles, and will continue to push the benchmark for consoles. But I'm still waiting until I see it at E3 (as a prototype product being shown off on the floor with a release window), because you never know what they could be working on. For all we know they could launch Xbox 2 as a "console" that also has full blown windows, and is basically just a Windows PC in a box. Sort of like how Steam did a bunch of PCs a few years ago and called them Steam machines. In other words I'm saying that they may just be working on a PC/Xbox hybrid, and that may be their "next console" for all we know. So I'm waiting to see. 

Nope. 45-55 million is still a viable audience.

The Vita wasn't a failure because it sold significantly less than PSP. Vita would have been a great success with half of PSP's userbase. Wii U could have been successful with half of the Wii's userbase. The movie Solo wasn't a failure because it made less money than other Star Wars movie, it was just a flop. Understand?

Sega bought Atlus well after they went 3rd party (around 2013). Meanwhile the Saturn and Dreamcast only sold like 10 million units, which is why they went 3rd party (around 2000).

I predict the next Xbox technically will have Windows, but it won't function like a Windows PC. Which would be a great idea, the Xbox should be capable of running Windows software easily for developers.

Ah ok. So flop as in selling so little that the business is literally unsustainable at that point. In that case how low would Xbox 1 sales have to be for MS' whole gaming division to lose money, and be unsustainable without huge injections of cash from their other divisions? 



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Ka-pi96 said:

 

"And how many of those owned both an Xbox and PC but decided to get it for PC instead? They are almost certainly gaining software sales by releasing on PC too, but they're also transferring some sales from one platform to another (as any game would when releasing multiplatform rather than exclusive). Besides, console profit isn't just about selling consoles, it's about earning royalties from all software sold on the platform. So it's not just the console sales themselves they're missing out on by releasing their games as multiplats, it's a lot of potential additional revenue that they could have earned through platform royalties as well."

Ironically, Cuphead and Ori are the only games you can make that argument for though. All their major releases are exclusive to the Windows 10 store, which is 100% owned by Microsoft. For their major releases they game 100% of the profit and for their indie releases they gain a much wider audience. I doubt almost any of those Cuphead sales would have been on Xbox One if it wasn't on PC, and even if say 20% of the 75% had an Xbox too, that would still be a loss of 55%. 

"Besides, what their games sell on PC really doesn't have anything to do with the success of Xbox, so the question "Why should I buy an Xbox One when I can play a game on a PC" is pertinent. If you want to talk about the success of Microsoft Game Studios as a video game software developer, then fair enough, but that's really a separate discussion from the success (or lack thereof) of Xbox. It's a bit like trying to say Sony's failure with the Vita doesn't count because they were successful with the PS4 (I'm pretty sure Microsoft's PC success is no where near comparable to the success of the PS4 though), but the Vita (like the Xbox) doesn't stop becoming a failure just because Sony had success with something else. "

This is seriously starting to get ridiculous. I've said many times in this thread that the basis of the argument, at it's core, isn't invalid. I shouldn't have to repeat it another 50 times. 

And it isn't the same at all, because what is being argued. Vita being a failure is objective, it is a failure because Sony set out to sell hardware and software and didn't exceed at either. Microsoft's failure this generation is not only grossly exaggerated already (i'd say it's more like a moderate success than an outright failure), but THEY THEMSELVES have changed their mission statement from selling just consoles to selling software and consoles and accessories. My point isn't "hurr durr Xbox is successful because of Windows 10", that literally makes no sense and isn't stated anywhere in the OP. My point is that they're playing into the hand that Microsoft wants: Software sales, no matter the cost. It isn't a failure by Microsoft, because it's by design, and it's most likely more profitable than anything they could have done otherwise (unless you want to create a revisionist history that spans back 4-5 years, be my guest). 



AngryLittleAlchemist said: 

This is seriously starting to get ridiculous. I've said many times in this thread that the basis of the argument, at it's core, isn't invalid. I shouldn't have to repeat it another 50 times. 

Welcome to the eternal problem of making your own thread. Nobody reads everything you posted, and even if they do, they grossly misunderstand it all. If you post a single sentence thread people will nitpick over all the obvious things that you didn't say. If you try to write War and Peace, in order to cover everything possible, they won't read any of it. 



Cerebralbore101 said:

AngryLittleAlchemist said: 

This is seriously starting to get ridiculous. I've said many times in this thread that the basis of the argument, at it's core, isn't invalid. I shouldn't have to repeat it another 50 times. 

Welcome to the eternal problem of making your own thread. Nobody reads everything you posted, and even if they do, they grossly misunderstand it all. If you post a single sentence thread people will nitpick over all the obvious things that you didn't say. If you try to write War and Peace, in order to cover everything possible, they won't read any of it. 

I mean, I tried to purposely make this one as short as I could while still getting across my points because people don't like long threads. I guess I shouldn't even try lol, just wanted a somewhat genuine conversation about this.



Just popping in to say I really appreciate this OP. It’s thoughtful and topical, and is a great conversation starter.



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Ka-pi96 said:

Them using the Microsoft store makes no difference anything I said. They get 100% of the profit on the Xbox store too, so unless people are actually sticking around and buying other games on the Microsoft Store too (possible, but not too likely considering the continued strength of Steam and which is of course competition that they don't really have for additional Xbox owners) then they're still missing out on potential additional revenue beyond the initial console/game sale.

Sony saw the low Vita sales and so focused on developing games for the PS3/4. How is that not the same as Microsoft seeing Xbox sales and deciding to start focusing on PC games? I say they're focusing on PC games since as far as I'm aware they don't have any Xbox One exclusives coming up but they do have at least 1 PC exclusive in addition to all the stuff for both platforms.

Ok ...

Ka-Pi, are you trolling me right now, or being for real? 

The first thing is something I've already addressed and the 2nd thing literally makes no sense. Focusing on PC games? Games that are coming on both platforms are suddenly "PC Games" because they also release on PC? Video games are usually developed on a computer and then closed off to a specific system when they are finished. The only difference is that now Microsoft is taking the time to simultaneously release those games on PC with a few extra options, which is incredibly easy because they have intimate knowledge of the PC platform. That's it. Just because the PC has one exclusive (an Age of Empires game no less, something that probably has a budget smaller than just about any Xbox ad campaign), doesn't mean they're primarily focused on PC, or that they're shifting over to PC development in the same way Sony did with the PS4 after the Vita. That doesn't even make sense. I can only assume that you are purposely being naive right now. 

But you know what, fair enough. I created this thread for discussion, might as well stop controlling it and let others chime in. Go ahead, if you want to say stuff that doesn't make sense you can, you won't hear any more complaints from me! 



Previously, I said that we can't look at MS' Gaming Division's Profit and Loss sheets. But maybe we can? Can anybody post MS' latest financial statements, as well as Sony's? If MS' Gaming Division is making more profit per dollar spent than Sony's Gaming Division, then that can be considered successful.

But my money is on MS' Gaming Division's PnL sheets being either impossible to find, or too deeply connected to their other business to be able to tell if they are really making money from Xbox as a brand.



AngryLittleAlchemist said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Them using the Microsoft store makes no difference anything I said. They get 100% of the profit on the Xbox store too, so unless people are actually sticking around and buying other games on the Microsoft Store too (possible, but not too likely considering the continued strength of Steam and which is of course competition that they don't really have for additional Xbox owners) then they're still missing out on potential additional revenue beyond the initial console/game sale.

Sony saw the low Vita sales and so focused on developing games for the PS3/4. How is that not the same as Microsoft seeing Xbox sales and deciding to start focusing on PC games? I say they're focusing on PC games since as far as I'm aware they don't have any Xbox One exclusives coming up but they do have at least 1 PC exclusive in addition to all the stuff for both platforms.

Ok ...

Ka-Pi, are you trolling me right now, or being for real? 

The first thing is something I've already addressed and the 2nd thing literally makes no sense. Focusing on PC games? Games that are coming on both platforms are suddenly "PC Games" because they also release on PC? Video games are usually developed on a computer and then closed off to a specific system when they are finished. The only difference is that now Microsoft is taking the time to simultaneously release those games on PC with a few extra options, which is incredibly easy because they have intimate knowledge of the PC platform. That's it. Just because the PC has one exclusive (an Age of Empires game no less, something that probably has a budget smaller than just about any Xbox ad campaign), doesn't mean they're primarily focused on PC, or that they're shifting over to PC development in the same way Sony did with the PS4 after the Vita. That doesn't even make sense. I can only assume that you are purposely being naive right now. 

But you know what, fair enough. I created this thread for discussion, might as well stop controlling it and let others chime in. Go ahead, if you want to say stuff that doesn't make sense you can, you won't hear any more complaints from me! 

These people are poking holes in your arguments. You don't have to be so dismissive about it. 



"Say what you want about Americans but we understand Capitalism.You buy yourself a product and you Get What You Pay For."  

- Max Payne 3

GribbleGrunger said:

Because most of us can see they're just trying to change the narrative to hide their console failures.

Or maybe selling software and services is more lucrative than selling hardware? With all due respect Gribble, I'm going to go with Microsoft's measure of success. They're worth hundreds of billions (that's with a 'b', not an 'm') after all...



alternine said:

These people are poking holes in your arguments. You don't have to be so dismissive about it. 

Yeah man, the simultaneous release of a PC and Xbox One game that takes little time to configure for both platforms is very similar to Sony messing up the Vita, failing at selling both hardware and software, leaving it as a legacy console a few years in, and then switching to PS4 only development. 

Hey, that's a big hole poked in my argument!