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President Trump Sides With Russia Against the United States.

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massimus said:
Machiavellian said: 

"My problem with Trump is not the policies he stand for it's how he executes them.  When you have an idiot tackling complex issues, they can F it up so bad that any real support for policies or issues will have unreasonable conflict because people can only focus on how bad that person screwed it up.  Immigration is a classic example.  The whole taking the children probably could have worked if done with a more deft hand but instead it was rushed without thought.  There was no plan to get the children back to their parents and no way for them to keep in touch or anything.  It was bungled beyond belief and made us look like complete fools.  The whole wall concept and making Mexico pay for it. Was great campaign slogan but anyone with any sense knew this wasn't going to happen and if the wall did get funded it was going to be our dollars doing it."

That's the law, he didn't do anything criminal. Congress needs to change the law lol. Other Presidents were in the wrong by nullifying law and opening our borders. We the people don't get to pick and choose which laws we obey, what kind of shit is that? "Zero Tolerance" was the law as written. People shouldn't be flooding our border in the first place. How you turn off the faucet?  How do you fix what has been ruined without having zero tolerance? Let them stay with their kids outside our wall. I don't care about how we look, I guess that's why we can't see eye to eye. The presentation really is the least important part to me. I just want the shit fixed. Well he is making mexico pay now with the tariffs lol. The wall has been started but  it hasn't been built and that's congress' fault. They send the spending bills. The house has the power of the purse. 

 

Actually this is incorrect and you really need to read up on exactly the executive order Trump instituted.  First it was only a misdemeanor to cross the border illegally not a criminal act.  There is no president before Trump that opened up the border and if you want to use Obama, then you really need to get your facts straight.  No one changed the law, this is what it has been for quite some time.  

Even changing it to a felony is not the bad part as I stated.  I see nothing wrong with making the law stricter and enforcing it.  My problem comes down as always to execution.  The problem with the whole border change was how sloppy and inhuman way it was executed. 

First you are going to lock these people up, for how long.  It's not like we have the capacity to start throwing a lot of these people into jail for a long period of time. The whole point of the other administrations doing the catch and release is because the amount of time and money needed to lock everyone up, house the children in a humane way will cost billions.  The current system did not have enough judges to support the change.  So now when you need to give them at least due process it takes over a year to get a court date.  Trump answer to this was give them no due process which then goes against the whole law premis I see Trump supporters always throw out on this subject.  "We only need Laws for Americans, everyone else we just treat like dirt on the bottom of our shoes". 

Next, they did not have the facility to do this properly.  Throwing up interm tents with barely any trained personnel to handle all the children especially when you think a lot of them are under the age of 5.  Now you have all these kids you have to do something with.  What are you going to do with them for the term their parents are locked up waiting for a trail that could take over a year to a court date.  Next we have the situation where no one kept track of the children and their parents.  You lock them up, throw their children in an interim camp without any identification as to who their parents are, then when you release their parents and send them back over the border you have no system to get their children back to them.  No system for the parents to know how their children are doing and no communication.  

As for the wall, it's not congress fault it falls on the same person who stated we will build something without the proper support to get it done.  The wall is Trump stump point and getting it done belongs to him because it was never supported by anyone in congress to begin with.  It's easy to throw this blame at Congress since it always needed them to pass it but it's the president job who wanted it to make it happen.  Like any negotiations, you have to give up something to get something.  Trump never tried to get Democrats on board with anything.  If there was a problem with getting his own party to support what he wanted like the Republican healthcare bill, he blames the democrats.  If something was viewed negative he found some way to either blame democrats, Obama or Hillary.  Always shifting the blame but never making the effort he needed to get things done.   

I do not care about Trumps presentation as long as its effective.  I find that what he believe is effective when he was in the private sector is effective in the public but its not working out that way.  Moving people politically and forgetting that your enemy can easily be your allie is where his lack of understand seems to be.  Currently I do not see Trump style actually working.  Right now things are in the beginning faze so there is still a lot of time to see how things shape up but currently the things where he needs others to support his efforts I see no results.  A lot of bluster but no real sense of what to do.



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massimus said:


That's the law, he didn't do anything criminal. Congress needs to change the law lol. 1) Other Presidents were in the wrong by nullifying law and opening our borders. We the people don't get to pick and choose which laws we obey, what kind of shit is that? "Zero Tolerance" was the law as written. 2) People shouldn't be flooding our border in the first place. How you turn off the faucet?  How do you fix what has been ruined without having zero tolerance? Let them stay with their kids outside our wall. I don't care about how we look, I guess that's why we can't see eye to eye. The presentation really is the least important part to me. I just want the shit fixed. 3) Well he is making mexico pay now with the tariffs lol. The wall has been started but  it hasn't been built and that's congress' fault. They send the spending bills. The house has the power of the purse. 

1). Please show which presidents nullified our laws and opened our borders.  In fact, Obama doubled our border patrol agents (see graphs below).  He also had more illegal immigrants removed than any president in decades (see graphs below)

 

2). Illegal immigration has been going down steadily since the late 90's.  In fact, It reached a 50 year peak low under Obama. Here are some charts you might find interesting.

 

Did you know that Mexicans no longer make up the majority of illegal immigrants?
It's now Asians.


3). You don't understand how tariffs work.  If it costs a Mexican company 10% tariff, they will raise prices to offset.  Meaning importers raise prices to consumers to offset.  Meaning you pay 10% more for products.  YOU paid for that wall.

 

 

Last edited by SpokenTruth - on 26 July 2018

Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Machiavellian said:
massimus said:

"Actually this is incorrect and you really need to read up on exactly the executive order Trump instituted.  First it was only a misdemeanor to cross the border illegally not a criminal act.  There is no president before Trump that opened up the border and if you want to use Obama, then you really need to get your facts straight.  No one changed the law, this is what it has been for quite some time."

Actually, I don't believe I'm incorrect because I have read enough. Changing the punishment doesn't change the law, avoiding punishment does. It nullifies the law. Changing it to a felony just made it a more serious offense, they didn't change existing law. I would risk a misdemeanor for the chance to come to America. Wouldn't you? Hell I'd probably risk a felony if Obama or Bush were still president. No President has ever given up our border officially but essentially sure. Obama rang the dinner bell, it is a fact. The democrats don't hide their open border intentions, they are Europe lite. Sanctuary cities completely ignore federal immigration law. They nullify law. They want to abolish ICE, you're going to try and convince me that nothing has changed? Let's be realistic. I"m saying the law hasn't changed, I'm not disputing that. I'm saying some don't follow the law and it's why we are here today.

Even changing it to a felony is not the bad part as I stated.  I see nothing wrong with making the law stricter and enforcing it.  My problem comes down as always to execution.  The problem with the whole border change was how sloppy and inhuman way it was executed. 

I agree. They border has been sloppy for decades. I don't see the inhumane part, taking them in at all was a blessing on their part. Sending your 11 year old across 3 countries with birth control in case they get raped. Just so you can have an anchor in the states. Those people are inhumane pieces of shit.

"First you are going to lock these people up, for how long.  It's not like we have the capacity to start throwing a lot of these people into jail for a long period of time. The whole point of the other administrations doing the catch and release is because the amount of time and money needed to lock everyone up, house the children in a humane way will cost billions.  The current system did not have enough judges to support the change.  So now when you need to give them at least due process it takes over a year to get a court date.  Trump answer to this was give them no due process which then goes against the whole law premis I see Trump supporters always throw out on this subject.  "We only need Laws for Americans, everyone else we just treat like dirt on the bottom of our shoes".

I don't want to lock them up at all, I want to send them home so they can get in line like everyone else. Immigration is for us, so we can import people that will make our lives better. They assimilate into the system and contribute, make a better life for their kids. Immigration as a philosophy isn't for the world's benefit. You have no wonder about the resources that are strained with the "catch and release" program? How much strain is put on hospitals and schools? How much strain is put on social security and welfare programs? Look at the States and small cities they have been devastated not just in America but all over Europe. Just shut up and take this change, right? I don't fall for it. It's scumbags securing dependency votes, the democrats don't do shit out of their good will. That's why they "catch and release" them by bus all across the country. Spread the wealth.

 

"Next, they did not have the facility to do this properly.  Throwing up interm tents with barely any trained personnel to handle all the children especially when you think a lot of them are under the age of 5.  Now you have all these kids you have to do something with.  What are you going to do with them for the term their parents are locked up waiting for a trail that could take over a year to a court date.  Next we have the situation where no one kept track of the children and their parents.  You lock them up, throw their children in an interim camp without any identification as to who their parents are, then when you release their parents and send them back over the border you have no system to get their children back to them.  No system for the parents to know how their children are doing and no communication." 

Why is a flood of 5 year olds at the border? They wouldn't have came all of this way if they didn't believe they would get in right? They shouldn't have thrown up tents? What are you suggesting, that they build a giant facility and make this the norm? They should have gotten a few cargo planes. Parents can go home and the kids can be given to foster care, that would be my offer. Or they can go home with you and you can try the right way. Tell the people of their countries just to send their kids by plane. It's safer. The parents would never be allowed to come here though. They would be on a block list.
 

"As for the wall, it's not congress fault it falls on the same person who stated we will build something without the proper support to get it done.  The wall is Trump stump point and getting it done belongs to him because it was never supported by anyone in congress to begin with.  It's easy to throw this blame at Congress since it always needed them to pass it but it's the president job who wanted it to make it happen.  Like any negotiations, you have to give up something to get something.  Trump never tried to get Democrats on board with anything.  If there was a problem with getting his own party to support what he wanted like the Republican healthcare bill, he blames the democrats.  If something was viewed negative he found some way to either blame democrats, Obama or Hillary.  Always shifting the blame but never making the effort he needed to get things done."

It is absolutely congress' fault and that's why it's easy to blame them. Actually it has been supported in congress for a long time. The 80s amnesty bill required a wall or proper border fencing, it was never funded and still hasn't been. It's not democrat or republican fault, its congress' fault. It would be useless trying to get the democrats on board with anything, literally anything. Most of them are insane and they vote in a collective mob. If you get one or two that break off then you are lucky. He needs republican votes. The last spending bill was a travesty but he said he needed it to build up the military, he has built up the military so i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for funding all of those useless democrat and republican endeavors. In the next spending bill if he does the same thing then i'm with you. Not just the border wall but the insane amount of pork that we waste money on. He said he would shut down the government if they didn't give him something realistic. I'll believe it when i see it. I'm hoping for it, those useless hacks need to be put on notice.
 

"I do not care about Trumps presentation as long as its effective.  I find that what he believe is effective when he was in the private sector is effective in the public but its not working out that way.  Moving people politically and forgetting that your enemy can easily be your allie is where his lack of understand seems to be.  Currently I do not see Trump style actually working.  Right now things are in the beginning faze so there is still a lot of time to see how things shape up but currently the things where he needs others to support his efforts I see no results.  A lot of bluster but no real sense of what to do."

They are working but you think it will fail in the long run. That's perfectly fine but i'm not wrong by saying the current results are working for most things. It' not the absolute shit show that you make it out to be, results wise.

Last edited by massimus - on 25 July 2018

SpokenTruth said:
massimus said:


That's the law, he didn't do anything criminal. Congress needs to change the law lol. 1) Other Presidents were in the wrong by nullifying law and opening our borders. We the people don't get to pick and choose which laws we obey, what kind of shit is that? "Zero Tolerance" was the law as written. 2) People shouldn't be flooding our border in the first place. How you turn off the faucet?  How do you fix what has been ruined without having zero tolerance? Let them stay with their kids outside our wall. I don't care about how we look, I guess that's why we can't see eye to eye. The presentation really is the least important part to me. I just want the shit fixed. 3) Well he is making mexico pay now with the tariffs lol. The wall has been started but  it hasn't been built and that's congress' fault. They send the spending bills. The house has the power of the purse. 

1). Please show which presidents nullified our laws and opened our borders.  In fact, Obama doubled our border patrol agents )see graphs below_.  He also had more illegal immigrants removed than any president in decades (see graphs below)

 

2). Illegal immigration has been going down steadily since the late 90's.  In fact, It reached a 50 year peak low under Obama. Here are some charts you might find interesting



3). You don't understand how tariffs work.  If it costs a Mexican company 10% tariff, they will raise prices to offset.  Meaning importers raise prices to consumers to offset.  Meaning you pay 10% more for products.  YOU paid for that wall.

 

!. Bush and Obama. It doesn't matter how many agents you have when you tell them to stand down. The billions he requested to pamper incoming immigrants far outnumbered his border patrol budget. Now taking away the pamper is inhumane lol. The returns went down because they stayed here or became DACA kids. You love the numbers but you never have any context. Illegally entries went down because they walked through the front door. The apprehensions went down because they stopped apprehending them. That's why sanctuary cities were born. I don't know why you think I'm so ignorant but this shit doesn't work on me, I know better. I can see what's going on lol.

 

2. Yes I know people overstaying their visa from all over is another immigration problem but that's one much easier to fix. I agree, it should be addressed.

3. I know exactly what tariffs are, that's why I'm against them. I'm free trade and that doesn't change because of Trump. I made a joke that's why lol was at the end of it. I have no problem funding our own wall and I would like to see it replace many things in the next budget bill.