TH3-D0S3R said:
sundin13 said:
This argument seems to largely be non-sequitur. Self-defense has virtually nothing to do with the question of dehumanization, and even if it did, self-defense is not, as you say a statement that someone does not deserve a fair trial, it is allowing individuals to guarantee their own human rights by protecting themselves. It is fundamentally a concept designed to protect human rights, not violate them. This is evident by the fact that a direct and credible threat must exist. You are not simply allowed to go up to someone who has murdered someone in the past. The argument that they lost their human rights when they take a life will certainly not help you in a court of law.
And you ask at what point do someone's actions justify dehumanizing that individual? Never. There is never a point where dehumanization is valid. Even individuals on death row must be treated humanely, even through their execution.
Your link adds nothing to the conversation because it is the exact statement I have been addressing (plus Townhall is a terrible place to get news).
And again, the utilization of MS-13 by Trump is a means to vilify immigrants and illegal immigrants, to allow for larger scale human rights abuses.
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Basically this boils down to moral principle. I'm a strong believer in an eye for an eye and the Golden Rule, so I tend to view extreme situations from my perspective. I would expect to be shot by police if I considered doing so because if I am okay with taking away the life of another, then I must be okay with someone taking my life as well. An example who give into death is ISIS. They are perfectly fine dying for their cause as long as someone comes with them. This mentality of accepting lawlessness is how these groups are made, so I don't think it is a bad thing to call them out and treat them like normal people, considering the actions they perform say otherwise.
This sort of thinking are how laws develop in the first place. Will it work in a courtroom? Fuck no, and I'm not saying it will. Laws are conceived on the basis that what we do may be too far given if the inverse happens to us. If you steal, something bad happens to you. Why? Because odds are if someone stole from you you'd want something bad to happen to him/her. I live in a state where the death penalty is still intact, so it influences the sort of terms I use.
Also I want to ask on your perspective of dehumanization, because I see it on both sides. The right calls people snowflakes and act like their in general are worth less while Democrats use the terms racists and Nazis to shut down any sort of conversation through means of intimidation and name calling. I think MS-13 is a vile group of individuals, and I wont comment on their rights considering I don't know their position of citizenship in a majority of cases, but what would you tend to classify as going too far? Answer for both too please, not just Trump and the right.
I get how Trump's statements are dehumanizing, but what humans do you know that cut out hearts of living people? In Trump's case I feel it was an instance of making your enemy known, and lowering their pedestal so more and more people disapprove of them and their actions. Do I agree with it? Yes, but not to the extent of calling them animals. Is it lazy? Yes (same with my source picking, I knew there were better sources but I just clicked on what I saw and glossed through it for accurate content given the context of the situation). Was he talking about illegals in general? Hell no, his basic comments with the Fresno Sheriff prove this to be false.
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First of all, Hammurabi's Code is dead. You may like the concept of "an eye for an eye", but that just isn't how our legal system works.
Second, punishment isn't the sole purpose of the justice system. We do not send people to jail simply to punish them (or at least we shouldn't), we also send them to prison to prevent further crimes through incapacitation and rehabilitation. The prison system in the US is fundamentally flawed as it does not put enough stock into rehabilitation which creates a system where individuals who go to prison are more likely to offend again which causes further societal harm.
Next, it is worth noting that calling someone a "snowflake" or "racist" is a far cry from full scale dehumanization. Those terms are typically used to invalidate arguments, not invalidate rights. That is where the line is with dehumanization. As soon as you attempt to remove human rights from individuals or use language to justify these actions, you have likely crossed a line into dehumanization (That definition might need to be tightened up a bit, but the general idea is there).
Finally, was Trump talking about illegals in general when speaking about "animals"? No, and I never said he was. What I said was that he uses MS-13 to justify his actions against a much larger population. He talks about MS-13 to scare people into thinking that they need to take away the rights of a much larger population to protect the country. Yes, MS-13 is bad, but they should almost never be brought up in a discussion of illegal immigration, because, like I said earlier, even if you assume every member of MS-13 is an illegal immigrant, less that 0.1% of illegal immigrants are part of MS-13. Trump brings them up to excuse violating the rights of all illegal immigrants (or generally, implementing large scale, heavy-handed policies) with the logic "if I hand you a bowl of M&Ms and I told you only a few were poisoned, what would you do?".