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Why don't you believe that Trump is a Russian tool?

Forums - Politics Discussion - Why don't you believe that Trump is a Russian tool?

irstupid said:
coolbeans said:

So...I've been a little curious about this one since jumping back here--partially due to my curiosity of what denial comments you read here.  

Help me understand this: you get a good laugh from those who don't buy him being a Russian tool, yet you use this couched language yourself saying he "might not be directly Putin's puppet" here?  You're hesitant of making the affirmative puppet claim yourself.

But who's to say that's based on "muh Russia" narrative and more of a businessman seeing the US being taken advantage of by allies.  I don't want to castigate all EU countries, but just look at something like NATO.  Do all EU countries keep to their signed agreements, specifically in regards to how much they pay in?  B/c the US has a history of going above and beyond in that respect.  Is it really that hard to question how, from the outlook of some, it appears like some disruption is needed?  

(Side note: Don't want to diminish EU involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan of dragged into it by us either.  Only presenting this based on how quoted comment is framed)

Okay...you know "pretty much everything" is this abstract, flimsy term to work with, right?  What extra actions will it take for it to not be convincing he's falling in lockstep with Russia's wishes?  Because so far you have:

-Following NATO allies in kicking out diplomats from country after spy poisoning in UK

-On-and-off saber-rattling in Syria

-Presented no roadblocks, and seem to cheer on, Montenegro's official joining of NATO

-Continued sanctions over Ukraine and has done one up over Obama in sending weapons to fight against Russian-backed rebels

-Pompeo (part of Trump admin) coming out and not accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea as legitimate

BONUS: There's been no incriminating evidence on even the level of Obama's hot mic incident before his 2nd term:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

If you find this list to be lacking, some bullet points to be too tangential, or perhaps there's some inaccuracies here, then that's fine.  But I want to get something solid here; no "well he's a just doing a bunch of what Russia would like" or some such dodgy language.  What's the extent needed in your mind before you're convinced Trump ISN'T doing 'pretty much everything' Russia wants?  No-fly zone in Syria which can escalate to war, more Balkan states joining NATO, a press conference calling Putin bad names?  Let me know.  

EDIT:  And I'm not trying to sound like a total ***hole.  It's just seeing that higher-than-thou assessment of others w/out much meat to your own claims.  "Oh I just couldn't help but guffaw at some of these denial comments here.  *Proceeds to utilize some wishy-washy language in respect to his own claims*"

I would think that just looking at the news should tell you that him being a Russian puppet is a lie due to there being two types of articles about Trump/Russia.

1. He is colluding with them, their puppet, ect.

2. He is going to go to war with Russia and destroy the world.

How can the news be constantly claim both at the same time. Is he Russia's puppet and ally or is he going to be going to war with Russia?

Not sure where you are getting your information from but I would like to see who is reporting we are going to war with Russia.  Maybe you are talking about the sanctions we imposed on them for interfering with out elections.  At first you could not get Trump to impose any sanctions on Russia

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-sanctions/trump-administration-holds-off-on-new-russia-sanctions-despite-law-idUSKBN1FI2V7

Once the pressure mounted he caved in but here is his tweet on it where he acts as if he was forced to do it over his own will.

As for Collusion, that is still up in the air.  



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He is whatever makes him the most money and power after he is out of office.



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irstupid said:
coolbeans said:

So...I've been a little curious about this one since jumping back here--partially due to my curiosity of what denial comments you read here.  

Help me understand this: you get a good laugh from those who don't buy him being a Russian tool, yet you use this couched language yourself saying he "might not be directly Putin's puppet" here?  You're hesitant of making the affirmative puppet claim yourself.

But who's to say that's based on "muh Russia" narrative and more of a businessman seeing the US being taken advantage of by allies.  I don't want to castigate all EU countries, but just look at something like NATO.  Do all EU countries keep to their signed agreements, specifically in regards to how much they pay in?  B/c the US has a history of going above and beyond in that respect.  Is it really that hard to question how, from the outlook of some, it appears like some disruption is needed?  

(Side note: Don't want to diminish EU involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan of dragged into it by us either.  Only presenting this based on how quoted comment is framed)

Okay...you know "pretty much everything" is this abstract, flimsy term to work with, right?  What extra actions will it take for it to not be convincing he's falling in lockstep with Russia's wishes?  Because so far you have:

-Following NATO allies in kicking out diplomats from country after spy poisoning in UK

-On-and-off saber-rattling in Syria

-Presented no roadblocks, and seem to cheer on, Montenegro's official joining of NATO

-Continued sanctions over Ukraine and has done one up over Obama in sending weapons to fight against Russian-backed rebels

-Pompeo (part of Trump admin) coming out and not accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea as legitimate

BONUS: There's been no incriminating evidence on even the level of Obama's hot mic incident before his 2nd term:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

If you find this list to be lacking, some bullet points to be too tangential, or perhaps there's some inaccuracies here, then that's fine.  But I want to get something solid here; no "well he's a just doing a bunch of what Russia would like" or some such dodgy language.  What's the extent needed in your mind before you're convinced Trump ISN'T doing 'pretty much everything' Russia wants?  No-fly zone in Syria which can escalate to war, more Balkan states joining NATO, a press conference calling Putin bad names?  Let me know.  

EDIT:  And I'm not trying to sound like a total ***hole.  It's just seeing that higher-than-thou assessment of others w/out much meat to your own claims.  "Oh I just couldn't help but guffaw at some of these denial comments here.  *Proceeds to utilize some wishy-washy language in respect to his own claims*"

I would think that just looking at the news should tell you that him being a Russian puppet is a lie due to there being two types of articles about Trump/Russia.

1. He is colluding with them, their puppet, ect.

2. He is going to go to war with Russia and destroy the world.

How can the news be constantly claim both at the same time. Is he Russia's puppet and ally or is he going to be going to war with Russia?

I'm sorry but I can't let this one slide.  

I can't think of anyone even remotely serious on 'The Left' who's brought up their worries about going to War w/ Russia (directly) whilst also calling him a Putin puppet.  You're grasping at a weird strawman to point at supposed hypocrisy.  Their over-reaction of Trump's supposed 'ending of the world' is in response to North Korea and Iran (directly).  Hell, last I remember MSM nearly creamed themselves when watching video feed of Trump's first bombardment of that Syrian airbase; there were probably a few D-hawks in Congress giving slight praise to it but wanting stronger retaliatory action.   



I have to say that the Omarosa craziness is getting funnier and funnier. I guess she will sell some books because every time she drops some little piece of nugget, Trump and his crew come out on twitter and call her a lier only to have a tape showing she was telling the Truth, LOL. I am sure by now nothing surprises anyone about Trump and him saying the N word or admitting to basically any of the lies he has told over the years.  Right now everyone is pretty much exhausted by such things and they just fall into another huge pile of garbage from this administration. The funny part is watching Team Trump scramble to try to make Omarosa a lier while she sits on her tapes waiting for the twitter storm. If anyone deserves someone like Omarosa, it sure was Trump.

the other funny thing is that Omarosa is correct that since she knew Trump and his camp would basically lie and call her everything in the book, you best have some evidence of what you say you either seen or heard.  It's not surprising she and Cohen did the same thing but when you think about how long they both been with Trump, I am sure they knew the way he lies, you have to have backup when the shit hits the fan.

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 14 August 2018

coolbeans said:

So...I've been a little curious about this one since jumping back here--partially due to my curiosity of what denial comments you read here.  

Help me understand this: you get a good laugh from those who don't buy him being a Russian tool, yet you use this couched language yourself saying he "might not be directly Putin's puppet" here?  You're hesitant of making the affirmative puppet claim yourself.

But who's to say that's based on "muh Russia" narrative and more of a businessman seeing the US being taken advantage of by allies.  I don't want to castigate all EU countries, but just look at something like NATO.  Do all EU countries keep to their signed agreements, specifically in regards to how much they pay in?  B/c the US has a history of going above and beyond in that respect.  Is it really that hard to question how, from the outlook of some, it appears like some disruption is needed?  

(Side note: Don't want to diminish EU involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan of dragged into it by us either.  Only presenting this based on how quoted comment is framed)

Okay...you know "pretty much everything" is this abstract, flimsy term to work with, right?  What extra actions will it take for it to not be convincing he's falling in lockstep with Russia's wishes?  Because so far you have:

-Following NATO allies in kicking out diplomats from country after spy poisoning in UK

-On-and-off saber-rattling in Syria

-Presented no roadblocks, and seem to cheer on, Montenegro's official joining of NATO

-Continued sanctions over Ukraine and has done one up over Obama in sending weapons to fight against Russian-backed rebels

-Pompeo (part of Trump admin) coming out and not accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea as legitimate

BONUS: There's been no incriminating evidence on even the level of Obama's hot mic incident before his 2nd term:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

If you find this list to be lacking, some bullet points to be too tangential, or perhaps there's some inaccuracies here, then that's fine.  But I want to get something solid here; no "well he's a just doing a bunch of what Russia would like" or some such dodgy language.  What's the extent needed in your mind before you're convinced Trump ISN'T doing 'pretty much everything' Russia wants?  No-fly zone in Syria which can escalate to war, more Balkan states joining NATO, a press conference calling Putin bad names?  Let me know.  

EDIT:  And I'm not trying to sound like a total ***hole.  It's just seeing that higher-than-thou assessment of others w/out much meat to your own claims.  "Oh I just couldn't help but guffaw at some of these denial comments here.  *Proceeds to utilize some wishy-washy language in respect to his own claims*"

In my opinion, all that underlining and bolding doesn´t help, but maybe others disagree?

Being Putins puppet/tool, doesn´t mean that Trump has to be commanded by Putin or directly manipulated or influenced. Trump has weakened US and EU and created unstability, and that is what Putin is presumable after. US weaking itself is beneficial to Russia and that doens´t mean that Russia and US has to be best friends or anything. Trump might just be a fool creating chaos, but that also makes him Russias tool whether he is acting with purpose or not. Russia wanted him as the president of USA and its not diffucult to see why :/



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PSintend0 said:

In my opinion, all that underlining and bolding doesn´t help, but maybe others disagree?

Being Putins puppet/tool, doesn´t mean that Trump has to be commanded by Putin or directly manipulated or influenced. Trump has weakened US and EU and created unstability, and that is what Putin is presumable after. US weaking itself is beneficial to Russia and that doens´t mean that Russia and US has to be best friends or anything. Trump might just be a fool creating chaos, but that also makes him Russias tool whether he is acting with purpose or not. Russia wanted him as the president of USA and its not diffucult to see why :/

Well, I apologize for that but that's just how I'm used to selecting & responding to specific parts of a post--at least when it's running really long.

What?  That's exactly what's implied in him being a "Russian tool."  The OP just outright states "beyond a doubt" that he's a tool of Moscow.  When throwing around terms like "tool" or "puppet" there's really little room for interpretation other than directly manipulated or influenced.  In regards to weakening US & EU, well you're just throwing around these malleable observations that can be objected against or outright defended in various contexts:

-Is he now weakening the US by striving to secure the nation's border?  

-Is he weakening US' relationship with EU based on Russian involvement or is he just another businessman who, like millions of others, sees America getting the bad end of trade deals and overcompensating (financially) in other countries before our own?  

Again, you haven't really given me anything concrete here.  I've already trotted out examples that presents doubt on this 'Russian tool' narrative.  If those points DON'T suffice for you: what's necessary for YOU to say that perhaps this narrative may just be more hysteria than truth?  Give me something.



So Trump publicly announces he has rescinded the security clearance of a former CIA director, John Brennan, simply because Brennan has spoken critically of Trump. However, the actual revocation of that clearance happened on July 26 - 3 weeks ago. Why wait 3 weeks to announce it?

But the real kicker? Artem Klyushin, a Russian billionaire and friend to Putin and Trump, tweeted about Brennan losing his security clearance 2 days before July 26th. How did he know?
https://hillreporter.com/putin-ally-tweeted-brennans-security-revocation-two-days-before-the-white-house-knew-about-it-5882



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."