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Forums - Politics Discussion - Why don't you believe that Trump is a Russian tool?

PSintend0 on 03 August 2018
ArnoldRimmer said:

PSintend0 said:
Trump might not be directly Putins puppet, but that doesn´t change the fact that Trump is weakening USA and EU, creating chaos and making pretty much everything that Russia wants to happen. This should be clear to anyone that has paid even the slightest attention to global politics. Putins plans are working and its a bit scary to see what happens in the future.

You know nothing about Putin's actual plans or what "Russia" wants to happen, Just like you don't know the actual plans of Trump or even the head of government of your own country. Chances are you've simply been exposed to propaganda that successfully tried to spread those narratives.

PSintend0 said:
With all the fear of Russia and communism, that USA used to have, its strange that many completely deny that Russia influenced the presidential election. They did it, believing is not about left or right, its a fact that Russia did it, there is no way around that. How much did they influence, thats another thing. But still its weird that USA seem to be okay with Russia meddling in its elections :/

Every country that has capabilities and incentives to influence foreign elections to their favor will try to do so. The US is actually the worst in this respect, no other country is so heavily trying to influence foreign elections than the US. It's been like that for decades, but it's not because the US is more evil than the other countries, it's just because they have an incentive and the means to do so.

Your country, my country, pretty much every country tries to somehow influence the US presidential elections. Because every country has an incentive to do so, for the US is (still) the most powerful country and their foreign policies have strong implications on almost all other countries. If you seriously object to that, you're simply naive.

The true reason behind all that "russia influenced the US election"-nonsense is simply that most european countries clearly preferred Clinton and tried to make her win, but miserably failed. The very same people who now so strongly try to spread the belief that russia rigged the election would ridicule the very same belief if things had turned out the other way: if Clinton had won and Trump had claimed that the election was rigged.

For a country there is a difference in stating opinion to influence election (fair and square) and doing what Russia does, if you cant see the difference, then you are being naive. US also influences and possibly in the same not so fair and square way. Its about the way Russia influenced, not that they influenced, which should be given.

Ofcourse I don´t exactly know what plans Russia, Trump, Putin or anyone else than me has, but one can draw conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Power is a key factor, gaining more, keeping it etc. with that in mind Russia and Putin have been getting more power, more allies and on the other hand US and EU have been fighting amongs themselves, losing power.

There are many reasons with Putin/Russia wanting Trump to get elected and I don´t know them all, but I and others can make assumptions aboiut the reasons. One possibility is that Putin, Trump, Hilary, USA, Russia are all part of the same circle of power, that the same force controls them all, but I hope that it isn´t the case and I will assume that they aren´t just one sick and twisted family.

Divide et impera



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Dark_Lord_2008 on 03 August 2018

Trump is Putin's puppet confirmed!



Machiavellian on 05 August 2018

I like how we had the Giuliani world tour on multiple news network trying to throw shade at Michael Cohen, propping up Donald Trump Jr as someone we can Trust and then trying to make a case that Collusion isn't a crime. One of the funny things about when you are dirty, like big crime bosses is that it's usually the thing they never thought was happening that take them down. Let's bring Michael Cohen back into the picture. Seems crazy that he would tape his conversations with Trump but then again that shows you the kind of trust he has in old Donald. Now it appears there are over 100 recordings of the two and Cohen appears to be ready to roll as much as he can because Trump has already tossed him under the bus.

The reason I bring this up is because of Trump habit of Sunday tweets decided to confess about the meeting between his son at Trump Tower. Now we know that Trump will lie until there isn't no place for him to go so for him to make this tweet and for Giuliani to make his world tour before hand seems like they know that their is evidence on exactly what that meeting was about so they are trying to stay ahead of it before it drops,

Now here is my thing and it shows when you have a serial liar why you can never trust a word from their mouth. At the end of Trump tweet, he still proclaims that he had no knowledge of the meeting. Now you have to be really stupid to believe that Trump Jr, will attend a meeting that could have potential dirt on Hillary not to inform his Dad. If Trump and his lawyers are trying to make a case that Collusion is not a crime, getting caught in another lie just make things worst. Even if Collision is not a crime, now the whole Obstruction case has more teeth. Going into the Midterms, maybe the Republicans want to lose seats because if the Dems get the obstructions charges from Mueller, they can blame them if impeachment actually hits the table. Man, to think Trump said that Hillary would be defending herself every moment in office.



Dark_Lord_2008 on 06 August 2018

Electing Trump as President is as close to rock bottom as the American people can get. Having a leader that is a 70+ year old man-child and bumbles and dithers his way as President. Trump is seen as a joke in the eyes of people around the world. Hopefully the disaster of President Trump will be the wake up call the American people need to elect better political leaders in future.



Machiavellian on 06 August 2018
Dark_Lord_2008 said:

Electing Trump as President is as close to rock bottom as the American people can get. Having a leader that is a 70+ year old man-child and bumbles and dithers his way as President. Trump is seen as a joke in the eyes of people around the world. Hopefully the disaster of President Trump will be the wake up call the American people need to elect better political leaders in future.

No, when stuff like this actually gain traction and seem to be gaining popularity within the Trump spear, it makes you wonder what the hell is going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QAnon

I have heard some wild conspiracy theories before but this one takes the prize.  It basically wraps up all the neat conspiracy theories about Hillary and any opponent against Trump into a happy path where the Russian investigation is actually a front lead by Mueller and Trump to expose the child trafficking ring headed by Obama and Hillary.  Some of the people who came out in Portland to show their national pride was demonstrating their hatred for Hillary and her child trafficking ring etc.  

Last edited by Machiavellian - on 06 August 2018

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massimus on 06 August 2018

I was wondering wtf that Quonon thing was. Someone accused me of that the other day lmao. I thought he was calling me a Russian or some other such nonsense. That must be the new meme people are using to deflect their losing arguments. “Quono facts” lmao.



StuOhQ on 06 August 2018

He's either been bought and sold, or played like a fool. Either one is plausible, but the first has mounting evidence.



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Machiavellian on 06 August 2018
massimus said:

I was wondering wtf that Quonon thing was. Someone accused me of that the other day lmao. I thought he was calling me a Russian or some other such nonsense. That must be the new meme people are using to deflect their losing arguments. “Quono facts” lmao.

Yeah, its the new buzz word going around for people who want to group people into the most crazy group I have ever heard of.  Nobody really knows how large they are but you can believe that the left will definitely try to paint any Trump supporter into this group.



irstupid on 10 August 2018
coolbeans said:
PSintend0 said:
I didn´t read all of the comments, but still I read enough of those denial comments to have a good laugh. Trump might not be directly Putins puppet, but that doesn´t change the fact that Trump is weakening USA and EU, creating chaos and making pretty much everything that Russia wants to happen. This should be clear to anyone that has paid even the slightest attention to global politics. Putins plans are working and its a bit scary to see what happens in the future. Doesn´t look too good for USA or EU. Maybe China and others can balance the situation a little.

With all the fear of Russia and communism, that USA used to have, its strange that many completely deny that Russia influenced the presidential election. They did it, believing is not about left or right, its a fact that Russia did it, there is no way around that. How much did they influence, thats another thing. But still its weird that USA seem to be okay with Russia meddling in its elections :/

So...I've been a little curious about this one since jumping back here--partially due to my curiosity of what denial comments you read here.  

Help me understand this: you get a good laugh from those who don't buy him being a Russian tool, yet you use this couched language yourself saying he "might not be directly Putin's puppet" here?  You're hesitant of making the affirmative puppet claim yourself.

But who's to say that's based on "muh Russia" narrative and more of a businessman seeing the US being taken advantage of by allies.  I don't want to castigate all EU countries, but just look at something like NATO.  Do all EU countries keep to their signed agreements, specifically in regards to how much they pay in?  B/c the US has a history of going above and beyond in that respect.  Is it really that hard to question how, from the outlook of some, it appears like some disruption is needed?  

(Side note: Don't want to diminish EU involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan of dragged into it by us either.  Only presenting this based on how quoted comment is framed)

Okay...you know "pretty much everything" is this abstract, flimsy term to work with, right?  What extra actions will it take for it to not be convincing he's falling in lockstep with Russia's wishes?  Because so far you have:

-Following NATO allies in kicking out diplomats from country after spy poisoning in UK

-On-and-off saber-rattling in Syria

-Presented no roadblocks, and seem to cheer on, Montenegro's official joining of NATO

-Continued sanctions over Ukraine and has done one up over Obama in sending weapons to fight against Russian-backed rebels

-Pompeo (part of Trump admin) coming out and not accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea as legitimate

BONUS: There's been no incriminating evidence on even the level of Obama's hot mic incident before his 2nd term:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

If you find this list to be lacking, some bullet points to be too tangential, or perhaps there's some inaccuracies here, then that's fine.  But I want to get something solid here; no "well he's a just doing a bunch of what Russia would like" or some such dodgy language.  What's the extent needed in your mind before you're convinced Trump ISN'T doing 'pretty much everything' Russia wants?  No-fly zone in Syria which can escalate to war, more Balkan states joining NATO, a press conference calling Putin bad names?  Let me know.  

EDIT:  And I'm not trying to sound like a total ***hole.  It's just seeing that higher-than-thou assessment of others w/out much meat to your own claims.  "Oh I just couldn't help but guffaw at some of these denial comments here.  *Proceeds to utilize some wishy-washy language in respect to his own claims*"

I would think that just looking at the news should tell you that him being a Russian puppet is a lie due to there being two types of articles about Trump/Russia.

1. He is colluding with them, their puppet, ect.

2. He is going to go to war with Russia and destroy the world.

How can the news be constantly claim both at the same time. Is he Russia's puppet and ally or is he going to be going to war with Russia?



Machiavellian on 10 August 2018
irstupid said:
coolbeans said:

So...I've been a little curious about this one since jumping back here--partially due to my curiosity of what denial comments you read here.  

Help me understand this: you get a good laugh from those who don't buy him being a Russian tool, yet you use this couched language yourself saying he "might not be directly Putin's puppet" here?  You're hesitant of making the affirmative puppet claim yourself.

But who's to say that's based on "muh Russia" narrative and more of a businessman seeing the US being taken advantage of by allies.  I don't want to castigate all EU countries, but just look at something like NATO.  Do all EU countries keep to their signed agreements, specifically in regards to how much they pay in?  B/c the US has a history of going above and beyond in that respect.  Is it really that hard to question how, from the outlook of some, it appears like some disruption is needed?  

(Side note: Don't want to diminish EU involvement in Iraq/Afghanistan of dragged into it by us either.  Only presenting this based on how quoted comment is framed)

Okay...you know "pretty much everything" is this abstract, flimsy term to work with, right?  What extra actions will it take for it to not be convincing he's falling in lockstep with Russia's wishes?  Because so far you have:

-Following NATO allies in kicking out diplomats from country after spy poisoning in UK

-On-and-off saber-rattling in Syria

-Presented no roadblocks, and seem to cheer on, Montenegro's official joining of NATO

-Continued sanctions over Ukraine and has done one up over Obama in sending weapons to fight against Russian-backed rebels

-Pompeo (part of Trump admin) coming out and not accepting Russia's annexation of Crimea as legitimate

BONUS: There's been no incriminating evidence on even the level of Obama's hot mic incident before his 2nd term:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsFR8DbSRQE

If you find this list to be lacking, some bullet points to be too tangential, or perhaps there's some inaccuracies here, then that's fine.  But I want to get something solid here; no "well he's a just doing a bunch of what Russia would like" or some such dodgy language.  What's the extent needed in your mind before you're convinced Trump ISN'T doing 'pretty much everything' Russia wants?  No-fly zone in Syria which can escalate to war, more Balkan states joining NATO, a press conference calling Putin bad names?  Let me know.  

EDIT:  And I'm not trying to sound like a total ***hole.  It's just seeing that higher-than-thou assessment of others w/out much meat to your own claims.  "Oh I just couldn't help but guffaw at some of these denial comments here.  *Proceeds to utilize some wishy-washy language in respect to his own claims*"

I would think that just looking at the news should tell you that him being a Russian puppet is a lie due to there being two types of articles about Trump/Russia.

1. He is colluding with them, their puppet, ect.

2. He is going to go to war with Russia and destroy the world.

How can the news be constantly claim both at the same time. Is he Russia's puppet and ally or is he going to be going to war with Russia?

Not sure where you are getting your information from but I would like to see who is reporting we are going to war with Russia.  Maybe you are talking about the sanctions we imposed on them for interfering with out elections.  At first you could not get Trump to impose any sanctions on Russia

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-russia-sanctions/trump-administration-holds-off-on-new-russia-sanctions-despite-law-idUSKBN1FI2V7

Once the pressure mounted he caved in but here is his tweet on it where he acts as if he was forced to do it over his own will.

As for Collusion, that is still up in the air.