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EricHiggin said:

Could be agenda driven, maybe, or it's just being used to create extra hype. In terms of the story itself, if I understand it correctly, isn't Ellie the only known human being that is immune? Just think about it. Anyone who knew she had this would kill for the same peace of mind. Her having as many children as possible in a world like that would make way too much sense, but if she's a straight up lesbian...

I mean, people are who they are, but it's gotta make players feel to some degree that she's being extremely selfish if this turns out to be the case. Not giving up her life for humanity is one thing, but also deciding not to create immune life, well that's another.

If this is how the story played out in TLOU2, then you could almost argue it's an agenda against feminism considering doing the 'right thing' could be looked at as just as important, if not more important than doing whatever you want, given this scenario.

The idea of what it means to be selfish is the crux the first story and Joel's choice. 

Basically he gave here the right to choose for herself but he didn't do that intentionally.  He had a choice to make and he made the selfish one by Killing the Fireflies and saving Ellie's life.  I have argued many time that Joel's decision was selfish even if we all understand why he did it.  He put his feeling and longings for his daughter before humanity  And most importantly HE DID THIS AGAINST ELLIE's WISHES.

Joel then LIED to her and told her that the Fireflies concluded that she wasn't a candidate.   Assuming that Ellies swallowed here pride and believed him, she is now free to live out her life without the danger of being seen as selfish for dong so.   There is also no indication ever given that Ellie's parents were also immune meaning that the trait could be easily passed on to offspring.  And how do you go about testing that theory without sacrificing an innocent baby...?  That is an entirely new level of selfish.

With the information she has been given by Joel (even though it is a lie) she is not wrong for just living her life. 

Of course, one wonders if she will learn the truth about what Joel did.

 

 



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Is gaf still a sjw hive? Or is it different now?



I'm probably the only lesbian on this message board if that counts for anything in terms of credibility on this matter, and I'd just like to point out a few things real quick because, honestly, the OP was extremely hurtful to read. I barely made it through. I'm not going to debate the merits of ResetEra's board policies because that seems like a place I would probably get banned from too, albeit for much different reasons. What's more, I'm sure the author of the OP doesn't think of himself as a hateful person and believes that he means well; that he's only concerned about the artistic quality of games and whatnot. But I just want to point out how that's not really being honest with one's self here. Let me pose a couple challenges real quick:

-How many straight-people kisses in games have you seen described as part of "an agenda" before?

-How many other proper AAA video games out there center a lesbian protagonist? (Spoiler: It's none. TLOU2 will be the first in history.)

You see what I'm getting at here? The fact that TLOU2 validates my orientation is something that increases the appeal of TLOU2 for me. Life doesn't always have to be about you and what you find appealing. Don't want it? Don't buy it! Nobody's making you, you know?

Yes, technically there are a small, small number of other games that allow for say romance arcs between female avatars, but invariably they are either small, independently-developed games (like Butterfly Soup or Gone Home) or games where it doesn't really matter narratively anyway and they give you a blank slate protagonist who's sex and orientation you can choose and who is just supposed to be a stand-in for the player with no personality and a title instead of a name (like in the Dragon Age games) anyway. TLOU2 will be the only exception that I'm aware of. Considering the sheer volume of games I've played through over the decades that have compelled me to imagine myself as not only straight, but also male, I think you can live with one whole exception to the aforementioned rules existing. And yeah, I'm more than fine with the developers taking a moment to celebrate that because it IS actually revolutionary in mainstream game development as yet! What's wrong with that? It's not like it's something that's exactly done all the time in games now is it? It's not a trope or a cliche that needs breaking away from for the sake of creativity now is it?

Something else I appreciated about the way the scene we're talking about was portrayed was that they actually had the more femme of the two be the more active one. That defies lazy stereotyping on a different level as well and is actually pretty realistic in my experience. That happens all the time. And also that Ellie is the more reserved of the two clearly doesn't make her a weak character either. More butch lesbians are also marginalized in media presentations of lesbians typically because they're not the kind of females that guys are attracted to and want to masturbate to, so I think it's also nice that they have Ellie as the main character. The scene is masterfully written and genuinely touching to me anyway. I LOVE the lighting, the music (oh god, the MUSIC!), the characters, the wit, and the aforementioned honesty. It's a wonderful scene out of a wonderful trailer for a game that, frankly, has just gone from being a game that I was highly anticipating to being really maybe even the most anticipated release ever for me!

But anyway, I just don't think the OP appreciates how important a simple gesture like making Ellie lesbian and not shying away from portraying that, even celebrating it a little (heaven forbid), is to many women like me out there.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 13 June 2018

Jaicee said:

I'm probably the only lesbian on this message board if that counts for anything in terms of credibility on this matter, and I'd just like to point out a few things real quick because, honestly, the OP was extremely hurtful to read. I barely made it through. I'm not going to debate the merits of ResetEra's board policies because that seems like a place I would probably get banned from too, albeit for much different reasons. What's more, I'm sure the author of the OP doesn't think of himself as a hateful person and believes that he means well; that he's only concerned about the artistic quality of games and whatnot. But I just want to point out how that's not really being honest with one's self here. Let me pose a couple challenges real quick:

-How many straight-people kisses in games have you seen described as part of "an agenda" before?

-How many other proper AAA video games out there center a lesbian protagonist? (Spoiler: It's none. TLOU2 will be the first in history.)

You see what I'm getting at here? The fact that TLOU2 validates my orientation is something that increases the appeal of TLOU2 for me. Life doesn't always have to be about you and what you find appealing. Don't want it? Don't buy it! Nobody's making you, you know?

Yes, technically there are a small, small number of other games that allow for say romance arcs between female avatars, but invariably they are either small, independently-developed games (like Butterfly Soup or Gone Home) or games where it doesn't really matter narratively anyway and they give you a blank slate protagonist who's sex and orientation you can choose and who is just supposed to be a stand-in for the player with no personality and a title instead of a name (like in the Dragon Age games) anyway. TLOU2 will be the only exception that I'm aware of. Considering the sheer volume of games I've played through over the decades that have compelled me to imagine myself as not only straight, but also male, I think you can live with one whole exception to the aforementioned rules existing. And yeah, I'm more than fine with the developers taking a moment to celebrate that because it IS actually revolutionary in mainstream game development as yet! What's wrong with that? It's not like it's something that's exactly done all the time in games now is it? It's not a trope or a cliche that needs breaking away from for the sake of creativity now is it?

Something else I appreciated about the way the scene we're talking about was portrayed was that they actually had the more femme of the two be the more active one. That defies lazy stereotyping on a different level as well and is actually pretty realistic in my experience. That happens all the time. And also that Ellie is the more reserved of the two clearly doesn't make her a weak character either. More butch lesbians are also marginalized in media presentations of lesbians typically because they're not the kind of females that guys are attracted to and want to masturbate to, so I think it's also nice that they have Ellie as the main character. The scene is masterfully written and genuinely touching to me anyway. I LOVE the lighting, the music (oh god, the MUSIC!), the characters, the wit, and the aforementioned honesty. It's a wonderful scene out of a wonderful trailer for a game that, frankly, has just gone from being a game that I was highly anticipating to being really maybe even the most anticipated release ever for me!

But anyway, I just don't think the OP appreciates how important a simple gesture like making Ellie lesbian and not shying away from portraying that, even celebrating it a little (heaven forbid), is to many women like me out there.

That was a great read. It's nice to have your unique perspective on this.

You mentioned that TLOU2 will be the first AAA title centered around a lesbian character but I would say Overwatch did a pretty good job too with Tracer being the face of the game and being a lesbian as well but I guess that since Overwatch isn't story driven it doesn't have the same impact as TLOU2.



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CosmicSex said:
EricHiggin said:

Could be agenda driven, maybe, or it's just being used to create extra hype. In terms of the story itself, if I understand it correctly, isn't Ellie the only known human being that is immune? Just think about it. Anyone who knew she had this would kill for the same peace of mind. Her having as many children as possible in a world like that would make way too much sense, but if she's a straight up lesbian...

I mean, people are who they are, but it's gotta make players feel to some degree that she's being extremely selfish if this turns out to be the case. Not giving up her life for humanity is one thing, but also deciding not to create immune life, well that's another.

If this is how the story played out in TLOU2, then you could almost argue it's an agenda against feminism considering doing the 'right thing' could be looked at as just as important, if not more important than doing whatever you want, given this scenario.

The idea of what it means to be selfish is the crux the first story and Joel's choice. 

Basically he gave here the right to choose for herself but he didn't do that intentionally.  He had a choice to make and he made the selfish one by Killing the Fireflies and saving Ellie's life.  I have argued many time that Joel's decision was selfish even if we all understand why he did it.  He put his feeling and longings for his daughter before humanity  And most importantly HE DID THIS AGAINST ELLIE's WISHES.

Joel then LIED to her and told her that the Fireflies concluded that she wasn't a candidate.   Assuming that Ellies swallowed here pride and believed him, she is now free to live out her life without the danger of being seen as selfish for dong so.   There is also no indication ever given that Ellie's parents were also immune meaning that the trait could be easily passed on to offspring.  And how do you go about testing that theory without sacrificing an innocent baby...?  That is an entirely new level of selfish.

With the information she has been given by Joel (even though it is a lie) she is not wrong for just living her life. 

Of course, one wonders if she will learn the truth about what Joel did.

Your right, I forgot Joel "changed" his mind and stopped the fireflies. Been a long time since I played the game. The fact that Ellie thinks she's not a candidate does render my comment useless.

I would say that while Joel's choice was selfish in a way, there is nothing guaranteeing that the fireflies would have been successful. She wouldn't necessarily have to subject the baby or child to see if it were immune, only if it came about that they became infected by chance. While that would make it much less meaningful to have many children, not knowing whether or not it's worthwhile, if they were immune, at least she wouldn't be the only one. Again, if she thinks her immunity is useless, then its highly unlikely she would bother trying to have kids if she didn't feel the need to have them.

I agree, this could be really interesting if she does find out eventually and how that affects her and Joel's relationship. How would she proceed after gaining this knowledge?



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TruckOSaurus said:

That was a great read. It's nice to have your unique perspective on this.

You mentioned that TLOU2 will be the first AAA title centered around a lesbian character but I would say Overwatch did a pretty good job too with Tracer being the face of the game and being a lesbian as well but I guess that since Overwatch isn't story driven it doesn't have the same impact as TLOU2.

Well that's a good point about Overwatch, but I would highlight that Overwatch is a game with no central character. It's not ABOUT Tracer. You see the difference?



Jaicee said:
TruckOSaurus said:

That was a great read. It's nice to have your unique perspective on this.

You mentioned that TLOU2 will be the first AAA title centered around a lesbian character but I would say Overwatch did a pretty good job too with Tracer being the face of the game and being a lesbian as well but I guess that since Overwatch isn't story driven it doesn't have the same impact as TLOU2.

Well that's a good point about Overwatch, but I would highlight that Overwatch is a game with no central character. It's not ABOUT Tracer. You see the difference?

Yeah she has to share the spotlight with 27 other heroes.



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I frequent roughly 6-7 gaming sites and 5 political sites and this is the only site of all of them on which I constantly see the people making a fuss about SJWs/diversity/hive minds/homophobia. I don’t understand why if you’re not comfortable or don’t like something you just don’t move on from it.



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CosmicSex said:
I don't understand how the kiss can be forced? People keep saying that but they never explain what they mean. What does it mean to be forced? If she kissed a guy, is it forced as well? Basically when you say something is forced, it means that it is done without permission or against someones will.

Don't think of it so literally. 



Jaicee said:

I'm probably the only lesbian on this message board if that counts for anything in terms of credibility on this matter, and I'd just like to point out a few things real quick because, honestly, the OP was extremely hurtful to read. I barely made it through. I'm not going to debate the merits of ResetEra's board policies because that seems like a place I would probably get banned from too, albeit for much different reasons. What's more, I'm sure the author of the OP doesn't think of himself as a hateful person and believes that he means well; that he's only concerned about the artistic quality of games and whatnot. But I just want to point out how that's not really being honest with one's self here. Let me pose a couple challenges real quick:

-How many straight-people kisses in games have you seen described as part of "an agenda" before?

-How many other proper AAA video games out there center a lesbian protagonist? (Spoiler: It's none. TLOU2 will be the first in history.)

You see what I'm getting at here? The fact that TLOU2 validates my orientation is something that increases the appeal of TLOU2 for me. Life doesn't always have to be about you and what you find appealing. Don't want it? Don't buy it! Nobody's making you, you know?

Yes, technically there are a small, small number of other games that allow for say romance arcs between female avatars, but invariably they are either small, independently-developed games (like Butterfly Soup or Gone Home) or games where it doesn't really matter narratively anyway and they give you a blank slate protagonist who's sex and orientation you can choose and who is just supposed to be a stand-in for the player with no personality and a title instead of a name (like in the Dragon Age games) anyway. TLOU2 will be the only exception that I'm aware of. Considering the sheer volume of games I've played through over the decades that have compelled me to imagine myself as not only straight, but also male, I think you can live with one whole exception to the aforementioned rules existing. And yeah, I'm more than fine with the developers taking a moment to celebrate that because it IS actually revolutionary in mainstream game development as yet! What's wrong with that? It's not like it's something that's exactly done all the time in games now is it? It's not a trope or a cliche that needs breaking away from for the sake of creativity now is it?

Something else I appreciated about the way the scene we're talking about was portrayed was that they actually had the more femme of the two be the more active one. That defies lazy stereotyping on a different level as well and is actually pretty realistic in my experience. That happens all the time. And also that Ellie is the more reserved of the two clearly doesn't make her a weak character either. More butch lesbians are also marginalized in media presentations of lesbians typically because they're not the kind of females that guys are attracted to and want to masturbate to, so I think it's also nice that they have Ellie as the main character. The scene is masterfully written and genuinely touching to me anyway. I LOVE the lighting, the music (oh god, the MUSIC!), the characters, the wit, and the aforementioned honesty. It's a wonderful scene out of a wonderful trailer for a game that, frankly, has just gone from being a game that I was highly anticipating to being really maybe even the most anticipated release ever for me!

But anyway, I just don't think the OP appreciates how important a simple gesture like making Ellie lesbian and not shying away from portraying that, even celebrating it a little (heaven forbid), is to many women like me out there.

to be fair if it was a transwoman kissing ellie you would have argued that this would have been part of the male agenda to infiltrate the women's movement

 

"More butch lesbians are also marginalized in media presentations of lesbians typically because they're not the kind of females that guys are attracted to and want to masturbate to"

or... perhaps its because people in the media generally tend to be attractive since people in general not just men prefer to watch attractive people