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Forums - Politics Discussion - United Nations report on the US

Dulfite said:
There is no solution to this. You either have A) middle class only where no one, no matter how hard they work, can never rise to a higher quality of life but are just simply sustained at "meh, I get by" or B) rich and poor people and a middle class.

You hear people argue that they have more money so they should be taxed and then you hear people argue that they worked hard for that money or inherited it from someone else who did. There lazy people (sluggards, in the Bible, book of Proverbs, for instance) and then there are people that are poor because of no fault of their own. There isn't a cookie cutter solution to this and that is what we've been trying to do and failing on a global scale for centuries.

Still, quality of life have been continuously evolving.

Teeqoz said:
DonFerrari said:

Haven't said taxes are the source of inequality, have said it is a usage of money transfer from poor to rich through the relationship of these with the government.

Go and see if Denmark, Norway and Finland have a free market or not.

Norway, Demark and Finland all have a free market with some regulations, like most developed nations. I'm not sure what your point is? I never argued against having a free market. It has literally nothing to do with what I said.

 Do you think taxes transfer money from the poor to the rich, but at the same time you don't think taxes cause inequality? You can't pick one, the first implies the second and vice versa. If taxes take money from the poor and give to the rich it necesarily causes economic inequality (not the only cause, but it necessarily has to be one of the causes).

Tax is part of the inequality issue, not even the main one, and reducing tax (since it isn't the sole cause) doesn't assure end of inequality since you won't control all other factors.



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DonFerrari said:
Teeqoz said:

Norway, Demark and Finland all have a free market with some regulations, like most developed nations. I'm not sure what your point is? I never argued against having a free market. It has literally nothing to do with what I said.

 Do you think taxes transfer money from the poor to the rich, but at the same time you don't think taxes cause inequality? You can't pick one, the first implies the second and vice versa. If taxes take money from the poor and give to the rich it necesarily causes economic inequality (not the only cause, but it necessarily has to be one of the causes).

Tax is part of the inequality issue, not even the main one, and reducing tax (since it isn't the sole cause) doesn't assure end of inequality since you won't control all other factors.

You didn't answer why you asked about a free market in Scandinavia, and you also didn't explain why inequality has been increasing despite taxes in the US decreasing. Sure, you could argue that it's due to other factors, but when that statistics show the opposite correlation of what you are suggesting, it doesn't exactly help to strengthen your claim.



numberwang said:
Teeqoz said:

Federal taxes in the US have genreally been decreasing, while inequality has generally been increasing. This sort of shoots a hole in your theory that taxes are the source of this inequality. Not to mention that the developed countries with the most social mobility are countries with high taxes and large governments, like Denmark, Canada, Norway and Finland.

Oranges and apples. Homogeneous countries have homogeneous outcomes, diverse countries have diverse outcomes.

May I ask in what terms homogenous or diverse?



epicurean said:
The lowest earning 51% already don't pay federal taxes in the US. I guess are others arguing that we need to give more entitlements to those folks by taxing the rich and middle class higher?

The lowest earning 51% pay their federal taxes via their paycheck. Have you never earned a paycheck and saw where taxes were taken out along with social security and medicare?

Do you think that the "refund" you can get is just the government giving people money? No, it means that too much money had been deducted from their paychecks from the previous year.



Megiddo said:
epicurean said:
The lowest earning 51% already don't pay federal taxes in the US. I guess are others arguing that we need to give more entitlements to those folks by taxing the rich and middle class higher?

The lowest earning 51% pay their taxes via their paycheck. Have you never earned a paycheck and saw where taxes were taken out along with social security and medicare?

The lowest 51% get all of that back. They still have to pay state taxes (sales tax, gas tax, etc), but no - they don't pay federal taxes. Feel free to investigate that.



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epicurean said:
Megiddo said:

The lowest earning 51% pay their taxes via their paycheck. Have you never earned a paycheck and saw where taxes were taken out along with social security and medicare?

The lowest 51% get all of that back. They still have to pay state taxes (sales tax, gas tax, etc), but no - they don't pay federal taxes. Feel free to investigate that.

You may be right on SS, though.



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epicurean said:
Megiddo said:

The lowest earning 51% pay their taxes via their paycheck. Have you never earned a paycheck and saw where taxes were taken out along with social security and medicare?

The lowest 51% get all of that back. They still have to pay state taxes (sales tax, gas tax, etc), but no - they don't pay federal taxes. Feel free to investigate that.

They do not get it all back. You have no idea how taxes work and that frankly is quite sad.

Last edited by Megiddo - on 11 June 2018

Megiddo said:
epicurean said:

The lowest 51% get all of that back. They still have to pay state taxes (sales tax, gas tax, etc), but no - they don't pay federal taxes. Feel free to investigate that.

They do not get it all back. You have no idea how taxes work and that frankly is quite sad.

https://nypost.com/2017/04/18/almost-half-of-americans-wont-pay-federal-income-tax/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/45-of-americans-pay-no-federal-income-tax-2016-02-24

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/closer-look-those-who-pay-no-income-or-payroll-taxes

I can post more if needed.



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Megiddo said:
epicurean said:

The lowest 51% get all of that back. They still have to pay state taxes (sales tax, gas tax, etc), but no - they don't pay federal taxes. Feel free to investigate that.

They do not get it all back. You have no idea how taxes work and that frankly is quite sad.

Also, the top 1% of earners in the US pay more than the bottom 90% of earners.

I mean, if you think we need to tax them more, that's fine, but let's not act like the rich aren't paying their "fair share."



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I'll use my own taxes.

My AGI was $29,000. My taxable income was $18,600

My taxes withhelf from my paycheck last year was $3,700. I was given a refund of $1,500.

What does that mean? I paid $2,200 in federal taxes. I did not "get it all back"

Those articles were written to make  you think that the ~50% of people who got a refund paid no taxes. That's lies that saps like you believe because you don't even know the slightest bit of information of taxes.

Last edited by Megiddo - on 11 June 2018