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does microsoft afford to release the Xbox after the PS5?

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Aura7541 said: 
 See previous thread....

Argument #1: Prior generation when you bought a PS1/PS2/PS3 and a mid-gen new consoles version came out it was only slimmer and almost no power upgrade over the original. PS4 Pro owners are made up of PS4 upgrade and new to the consoles. All of these people are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Therefore, you've never had PS1.5/PS2.5/PS3.5 like we do now with the PS4 Pro and XB1X. We have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales.  

Argument #2: Sony ecosystem, your right with Sony is growing their ecosystem. But, unlike PS3 to PS4 jump were you needed a PS4 to play next gen PS4 game. You will still be able to play the new next gen games on older consoles. These game are going to be the best looking on the PS4 Pro.  Will there be consoles PS5 exclusives that can't be played on PS4 PRo in the first two-three years that not tied to some new controller???? If you wanted to play the new game you had to buy a PS4, they quickly drop PS3 support for next gen games that will not be the case for next gen unless PS5 release in 2021 or 2022. Assuming they release PS5 Holiday 2019 or spring 2020 the PS4 will still be on the market, you will have the choice between getting a PS4 for dirt cheap, Discounted PS4 Pro or upgrade the 4k graphic and performance with PS5. That won't be a 7 year jump in technology. Also, your digital library is going to convert to the PS5, there even less pressure to make the jump. All of these great consumer friendly options will result in less sales of PS5 compared to PS4. 

Argument #3: Software, Microsoft could release a cheaper and slightly more powerful XB2 on the same day as PS5 and it wouldn't matter unless they have the software to backup their new console. Phil Spencer focus is on powerful hardware and software to back it up, this plan will take time and Xb2 won't be ready till 2020 or 2021. If sony release PS5 in 2019 they will probably have a one year lead on Microsoft next gen console. 

Aura7541 said: 
 See previous thread....

Your pivot to mobile trends is yet another red herring. The discussion is largely about the PS5. The bolded is yet another strawman fallacy. I said that if Sony gets a year head start with the PS5, then Sony may end up eating a chunk of the Xbox userbase before Microsoft releases the XB2. However, I clearly said that I expect the PS5 and XB2 to release simultaneously. Considering how messy your comment is overall, you're less interested in addressing my counterarguments and more concerned about responding for the sake of responding. I mean, for goodness sakes, there is a 3 day gap between your response before the one I'm quoting and the comment I made 4 days ago, and that post was also logically flawed in spite of the amount of time you had to think it over.


The casual market have gone from playing game on consoles to playing game on Mobile. If the trends continue Sony will lose some market to Mobile/tablet gaming rather then lose it to Xb2. Consoles sales overall will take a hit to Mobile/Tablets. 



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the phone one is sad. imagine all the poor fellas that want to make real big games but they have to work for zynga or crap phone companies just to copy farmville with yet an another medieval skins 



yvanjean said:

Argument #1: Prior generation when you bought a PS1/PS2/PS3 and a mid-gen new consoles version came out it was only slimmer and almost no power upgrade over the original. PS4 Pro owners are made up of PS4 upgrade and new to the consoles. All of these people are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Therefore, you've never had PS1.5/PS2.5/PS3.5 like we do now with the PS4 Pro and XB1X. We have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales.  

Already argued against this point in the 3rd paragraph of this comment and the 5th paragraph of this comment.

Also, show me empirical evidence (e.g. a survey) that PS4 Pro owners are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Otherwise, this is mere conjecture. Just because we have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales doesn't automatically mean the results will be different. It may not have that much of an impact at all and there are some possible reasons as I already stated. For example, the PS4 launched with weak 1st party software. A strong 1st party launch lineup for the PS5 would be an advantage in favor of the PS5.

yvanjean said: 

Argument #2: Sony ecosystem, your right with Sony is growing their ecosystem. But, unlike PS3 to PS4 jump were you needed a PS4 to play next gen PS4 game. You will still be able to play the new next gen games on older consoles. These game are going to be the best looking on the PS4 Pro.  Will there be consoles PS5 exclusives that can't be played on PS4 PRo in the first two-three years that not tied to some new controller???? If you wanted to play the new game you had to buy a PS4, they quickly drop PS3 support for next gen games that will not be the case for next gen unless PS5 release in 2021 or 2022. Assuming they release PS5 Holiday 2019 or spring 2020 the PS4 will still be on the market, you will have the choice between getting a PS4 for dirt cheap, Discounted PS4 Pro or upgrade the 4k graphic and performance with PS5. That won't be a 7 year jump in technology. Also, your digital library is going to convert to the PS5, there even less pressure to make the jump. All of these great consumer friendly options will result in less sales of PS5 compared to PS4. 

You mean cross-gen games and across the PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5, the PS5 version will look the best. You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate. Next gen games can only be played on next gen consoles.

As for the rest, your point can be easily refuted with the 3rd paragraph of this comment, the 3rd paragraph of this comment, and the 5th paragraph of this comment. Your assertion that it won't be a 7 year jump in technology can be easily countered with the 2nd paragraph of this comment, the last paragraph of this comment, and the 11th paragraph of this comment.

Lastly, backwards compatibility has its greatest impact at the beginning of a console's lifecycle because at launch, the new console's library is still in its infancy. If PS4 BC happens, then PS5 owners will have an instant library to start off with, perhaps with the added benefit of PS4 Pro-esque enhancements. Heck, there may be several games that current PS4 owners wanted to play, but never got a chance to due to time constraints. However, backwards compatibility covers that and people who did not own a PS4 (e.g. XB1-only gamers) can also buy a PS5 and still be able to play PS4 games. The transferring of library maintains goodwill with the consumers and backwards compatibility helps maintain software sales, which helps the developers as well as Sony since they get a platform cut. In addition, Sony can put some marketing behind the PS5 enhancements which will give the PS4 games and the PS5 more consumer awareness.

yvanjean said: 

Argument #3: Software, Microsoft could release a cheaper and slightly more powerful XB2 on the same day as PS5 and it wouldn't matter unless they have the software to backup their new console. Phil Spencer focus is on powerful hardware and software to back it up, this plan will take time and Xb2 won't be ready till 2020 or 2021. If sony release PS5 in 2019 they will probably have a one year lead on Microsoft next gen console. 

At least you agree that on average, the XB1 is cheaper than the PS4 for much of this generation, not on par.

Also, see the 2nd paragraph of this comment. Sony's 1st party studios will not have to completely revamp their engines since they will stick to the x86 architecture. Guerrilla Games may be able to get Horizon 2 within the PS5's first year since they already have the assets ready and it's not a brand new IP. What if Polyphony Digital release Gran Turismo 7 as one of the PS5's 1st party launch titles? At the beginning of this gen, Forza 5 went unopposed as Driveclub was delayed and GT Sport didn't release until last year.

Microsoft, on the other hand, might be a different story. Will The Coalition and 343 release another game each before the new consoles come out? If so, then how long will it take for them to release their games after the next ones? For instance, if they release their games in 2019, then an optimistic 3-year dev cycle will put their next gen games' release date in 2022.

yvanjean said: 

The casual market have gone from playing game on consoles to playing game on Mobile. If the trends continue Sony will lose some market to Mobile/tablet gaming rather then lose it to Xb2. Consoles sales overall will take a hit to Mobile/Tablets. 

Mobile has greatly risen this generation and yet, the PS4 is not slowing down. In addition, PS4 software dollar sales continue to perform strongly according to NPD. You need to provide empirical evidence to prove what you're asserting is correct. Otherwise, this is just a pivot to something off-topic.

Your chart doesn't tell me anything as it doesn't show a trend. It's only a snapshot of which platforms developers are interested in developing games for. Is the overall trend going down? Is the overall trend going up? Is there actually evidence that suggests developers are dropping console development in favor of mobile development? Do developers say that their focus on console development has gone down because of increased focus on mobile development?

Again, much of your response are retreads of which I already refuted. However, you have not made adequate counterarguments which is why you continue to make the same points, but with different coats of paint. You are still responding for the sake of responding.



Aura7541 said:
yvanjean said:

Argument #1: Prior generation when you bought a PS1/PS2/PS3 and a mid-gen new consoles version came out it was only slimmer and almost no power upgrade over the original. PS4 Pro owners are made up of PS4 upgrade and new to the consoles. All of these people are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Therefore, you've never had PS1.5/PS2.5/PS3.5 like we do now with the PS4 Pro and XB1X. We have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales.  

Already argued against this point in the 3rd paragraph of this comment and the 5th paragraph of this comment.

Also, show me empirical evidence (e.g. a survey) that PS4 Pro owners are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Otherwise, this is mere conjecture. Just because we have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales doesn't automatically mean the results will be different. It may not have that much of an impact at all and there are some possible reasons as I already stated. For example, the PS4 launched with weak 1st party software. A strong 1st party launch lineup for the PS5 would be an advantage in favor of the PS5.

yvanjean said: 

Argument #2: Sony ecosystem, your right with Sony is growing their ecosystem. But, unlike PS3 to PS4 jump were you needed a PS4 to play next gen PS4 game. You will still be able to play the new next gen games on older consoles. These game are going to be the best looking on the PS4 Pro.  Will there be consoles PS5 exclusives that can't be played on PS4 PRo in the first two-three years that not tied to some new controller???? If you wanted to play the new game you had to buy a PS4, they quickly drop PS3 support for next gen games that will not be the case for next gen unless PS5 release in 2021 or 2022. Assuming they release PS5 Holiday 2019 or spring 2020 the PS4 will still be on the market, you will have the choice between getting a PS4 for dirt cheap, Discounted PS4 Pro or upgrade the 4k graphic and performance with PS5. That won't be a 7 year jump in technology. Also, your digital library is going to convert to the PS5, there even less pressure to make the jump. All of these great consumer friendly options will result in less sales of PS5 compared to PS4. 

You mean cross-gen games and across the PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5, the PS5 version will look the best. You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate. Next gen games can only be played on next gen consoles.

As for the rest, your point can be easily refuted with the 3rd paragraph of this comment, the 3rd paragraph of this comment, and the 5th paragraph of this comment. Your assertion that it won't be a 7 year jump in technology can be easily countered with the 2nd paragraph of this comment, the last paragraph of this comment, and the 11th paragraph of this comment.

Lastly, backwards compatibility has its greatest impact at the beginning of a console's lifecycle because at launch, the new console's library is still in its infancy. If PS4 BC happens, then PS5 owners will have an instant library to start off with, perhaps with the added benefit of PS4 Pro-esque enhancements. Heck, there may be several games that current PS4 owners wanted to play, but never got a chance to due to time constraints. However, backwards compatibility covers that and people who did not own a PS4 (e.g. XB1-only gamers) can also buy a PS5 and still be able to play PS4 games. The transferring of library maintains goodwill with the consumers and backwards compatibility helps maintain software sales, which helps the developers as well as Sony since they get a platform cut. In addition, Sony can put some marketing behind the PS5 enhancements which will give the PS4 games and the PS5 more consumer awareness.

yvanjean said: 

Argument #3: Software, Microsoft could release a cheaper and slightly more powerful XB2 on the same day as PS5 and it wouldn't matter unless they have the software to backup their new console. Phil Spencer focus is on powerful hardware and software to back it up, this plan will take time and Xb2 won't be ready till 2020 or 2021. If sony release PS5 in 2019 they will probably have a one year lead on Microsoft next gen console. 

At least you agree that on average, the XB1 is cheaper than the PS4 for much of this generation, not on par.

Also, see the 2nd paragraph of this comment. Sony's 1st party studios will not have to completely revamp their engines since they will stick to the x86 architecture. Guerrilla Games may be able to get Horizon 2 within the PS5's first year since they already have the assets ready and it's not a brand new IP. What if Polyphony Digital release Gran Turismo 7 as one of the PS5's 1st party launch titles? At the beginning of this gen, Forza 5 went unopposed as Driveclub was delayed and GT Sport didn't release until last year.

Microsoft, on the other hand, might be a different story. Will The Coalition and 343 release another game each before the new consoles come out? If so, then how long will it take for them to release their games after the next ones? For instance, if they release their games in 2019, then an optimistic 3-year dev cycle will put their next gen games' release date in 2022.

yvanjean said: 

The casual market have gone from playing game on consoles to playing game on Mobile. If the trends continue Sony will lose some market to Mobile/tablet gaming rather then lose it to Xb2. Consoles sales overall will take a hit to Mobile/Tablets. 

Mobile has greatly risen this generation and yet, the PS4 is not slowing down. In addition, PS4 software dollar sales continue to perform strongly according to NPD. You need to provide empirical evidence to prove what you're asserting is correct. Otherwise, this is just a pivot to something off-topic.

Your chart doesn't tell me anything as it doesn't show a trend. It's only a snapshot of which platforms developers are interested in developing games for. Is the overall trend going down? Is the overall trend going up? Is there actually evidence that suggests developers are dropping console development in favor of mobile development? Do developers say that their focus on console development has gone down because of increased focus on mobile development?

Again, much of your response are retreads of which I already refuted. However, you have not made adequate counterarguments which is why you continue to make the same points, but with different coats of paint. You are still responding for the sake of responding.

I own a PS4 Pro. I will get a PS5. Probably day one. For the most obvious reason possible.

It will have games that aren't playable on ps4. There is 0% chance they will announce the PS5.. with no PS5 only games.



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Aura7541 said:
yvanjean said:

Argument #1: Prior generation when you bought a PS1/PS2/PS3 and a mid-gen new consoles version came out it was only slimmer and almost no power upgrade over the original. PS4 Pro owners are made up of PS4 upgrade and new to the consoles. All of these people are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Therefore, you've never had PS1.5/PS2.5/PS3.5 like we do now with the PS4 Pro and XB1X. We have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales.  

Already argued against this point in the 3rd paragraph of this comment and the 5th paragraph of this comment.

Also, show me empirical evidence (e.g. a survey) that PS4 Pro owners are less likely to buy a PS5 right away. Otherwise, this is mere conjecture. Just because we have never seen the impact this will have on next gen sales doesn't automatically mean the results will be different. It may not have that much of an impact at all and there are some possible reasons as I already stated. For example, the PS4 launched with weak 1st party software. A strong 1st party launch lineup for the PS5 would be an advantage in favor of the PS5.

Well all of your apparent counter arguments seem more to me like you are stating your personal views as facts. Remember that this entire thread is conjecture and speculation, we are missing the most important piece of information release date for PS5. PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4. On top of that you had in mid-gen refresh that Sony did to the PS4, return of Nintendo has a power house( WiiU being a complete failure), popularity of mobile market and there simply no way Microsoft can have a worst launch than they did with Xb1.  Also, Sony manage amazing result when their competition were struggling.  That won't be the same for PS5. 

yvanjean said: 

Argument #2: Sony ecosystem, your right with Sony is growing their ecosystem. But, unlike PS3 to PS4 jump were you needed a PS4 to play next gen PS4 game. You will still be able to play the new next gen games on older consoles. These game are going to be the best looking on the PS4 Pro.  Will there be consoles PS5 exclusives that can't be played on PS4 PRo in the first two-three years that not tied to some new controller???? If you wanted to play the new game you had to buy a PS4, they quickly drop PS3 support for next gen games that will not be the case for next gen unless PS5 release in 2021 or 2022. Assuming they release PS5 Holiday 2019 or spring 2020 the PS4 will still be on the market, you will have the choice between getting a PS4 for dirt cheap, Discounted PS4 Pro or upgrade the 4k graphic and performance with PS5. That won't be a 7 year jump in technology. Also, your digital library is going to convert to the PS5, there even less pressure to make the jump. All of these great consumer friendly options will result in less sales of PS5 compared to PS4. 

You mean cross-gen games and across the PS4, PS4 Pro, and PS5, the PS5 version will look the best. You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate. Next gen games can only be played on next gen consoles.

If power, graphics and resolutions mattered so much the Nintendo Switch would not be a success right now.

As for the rest, your point can be easily refuted with the 3rd paragraph of this comment, the 3rd paragraph of this comment, and the 5th paragraph of this comment. Your assertion that it won't be a 7 year jump in technology can be easily countered with the 2nd paragraph of this comment, the last paragraph of this comment, and the 11th paragraph of this comment.

Lastly, backwards compatibility has its greatest impact at the beginning of a console's lifecycle because at launch, the new console's library is still in its infancy. If PS4 BC happens, then PS5 owners will have an instant library to start off with, perhaps with the added benefit of PS4 Pro-esque enhancements. Heck, there may be several games that current PS4 owners wanted to play, but never got a chance to due to time constraints. However, backwards compatibility covers that and people who did not own a PS4 (e.g. XB1-only gamers) can also buy a PS5 and still be able to play PS4 games. The transferring of library maintains goodwill with the consumers and backwards compatibility helps maintain software sales, which helps the developers as well as Sony since they get a platform cut. In addition, Sony can put some marketing behind the PS5 enhancements which will give the PS4 games and the PS5 more consumer awareness.

There not much of Xb1-only gamers out there for Sony to steal from even I own a PS4. You know what's going to be much cheaper than a PS5 when it launch that potential Sony customer would want a PS4 Pro. Ps5 will lose some sales to their cheaper last gen consoles. Ps3 to PS4 was the longest between a refresh and everyone was ready for the next gen. That not the case for PS5.  You also made the argument "
You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate." but Sony as advertised PS4 Pro has 4k ready machine. The actual jump in resolution is 4k to 4k. PS4 Pro did not sell gang buster because there were no major improvement over the PS4. It's going to be the same thing with PS4 Pro to PS5. 

yvanjean said: 

Argument #3: Software, Microsoft could release a cheaper and slightly more powerful XB2 on the same day as PS5 and it wouldn't matter unless they have the software to backup their new console. Phil Spencer focus is on powerful hardware and software to back it up, this plan will take time and Xb2 won't be ready till 2020 or 2021. If sony release PS5 in 2019 they will probably have a one year lead on Microsoft next gen console. 

At least you agree that on average, the XB1 is cheaper than the PS4 for much of this generation, not on par. 

Except when it mattered the first year of this gen, Xb1 used to be more expensive until they drop the Kinect and gain $50 advantage. I wasn't too happy with the price of the Xb1X, would of been much better if was Cheaper and came bundle with one year of Gamepass. 

Also, see the 2nd paragraph of this comment. Sony's 1st party studios will not have to completely revamp their engines since they will stick to the x86 architecture. Guerrilla Games may be able to get Horizon 2 within the PS5's first year since they already have the assets ready and it's not a brand new IP. What if Polyphony Digital release Gran Turismo 7 as one of the PS5's 1st party launch titles? At the beginning of this gen, Forza 5 went unopposed as Driveclub was delayed and GT Sport didn't release until last year.

Microsoft, on the other hand, might be a different story. Will The Coalition and 343 release another game each before the new consoles come out? If so, then how long will it take for them to release their games after the next ones? For instance, if they release their games in 2019, then an optimistic 3-year dev cycle will put their next gen games' release date in 2022.  

Rumors are that Microsoft software solution apparently was to focus on their studios on top of acquiring PlayGround Games and grow these studios so that they can have multiple project. Playground Games is currently working on Forza Horizon and Fable 4. Increase the staff at Coalition and 343 so that both studios have more then one project other then Halo 6 and Gears 5.  

Time will tell but Microsoft need to do much more...https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/microsoft-boosts-video-game-investment-as-focus-shifts-to-software. Microsoft need to do much better they are far behind when compared to Sony and Nintendo. They are fully aware of this fact. 

yvanjean said: 

The casual market have gone from playing game on consoles to playing game on Mobile. If the trends continue Sony will lose some market to Mobile/tablet gaming rather then lose it to Xb2. Consoles sales overall will take a hit to Mobile/Tablets. 

Mobile has greatly risen this generation and yet, the PS4 is not slowing down. In addition, PS4 software dollar sales continue to perform strongly according to NPD. You need to provide empirical evidence to prove what you're asserting is correct. Otherwise, this is just a pivot to something off-topic.

Your chart doesn't tell me anything as it doesn't show a trend. It's only a snapshot of which platforms developers are interested in developing games for. Is the overall trend going down? Is the overall trend going up? Is there actually evidence that suggests developers are dropping console development in favor of mobile development? Do developers say that their focus on console development has gone down because of increased focus on mobile development?

Again, much of your response are retreads of which I already refuted. However, you have not made adequate counterarguments which is why you continue to make the same points, but with different coats of paint. You are still responding for the sake of responding.

Technology we'll eventually surpass the need for a consoles, Switch and Smartphones/Tablets is an early example of change in trends. Eventually Smart TV will all have powerful micro PC and you will only need controller to play games.  In the past people talk about unrealistic growth of cloud gaming but just look how much they've closed the gap between mobile and consoles to see where tech is going. 



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yvanjean said:

Well all of your apparent counter arguments seem more to me like you are stating your personal views as facts. Remember that this entire thread is conjecture and speculation, we are missing the most important piece of information release date for PS5.

That would describe your responses a lot more accurately than mine. I didn't state my personal views as facts. I made my counterarguments as potential reasons why the PS5 may do as well as the PS4 or better. You have not adequately refuted those points and yet again, you are making the same old recycled talking points ad nauseaum. Just because you can say the same things over and over again, doesn't make it true. Just because this thread is about speculation, it doesn't excuse your pitiful logic (e.g. your propensity to use red herrings and strawman fallacies).

yvanjean said:

PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4.

And what evidence do you have to suggest this? For someone who likes to accuse me for stating my personal views as facts, you sure love to do it yourself. In fact, I asked you to provide data such as a survey, but you didn't.

I already told you multiple times that late adopters are price conscious. They will only buy consoles if they're cheap. Those people who buy a PS4 late in this cycle will not get a PS5 until it becomes cheaper, too. Those aren't the same people who will buy the next gen console Day 1.

I can also make alternative counterarguments against your repetitive assertions. For instance, the PS3 was a pain in the ass to develop games. On the other hand, the PS5 will continue to use x86 like the PS4 which will make the learning curve significantly less steep. PS2 -> PS3 development is way harder than the PS4 -> PS5 transition. The PS4 -> PS5 transition will also be easier than the PS3 -> PS4 transition since this will be the very first time (or as you love to say, "something we never seen before") Sony will not be changing architectures. This will allow greater initial software output for the PS5. In addition, going into this generation, analysts predicted that this generation of consoles wouldn't do well which made a lot of developers/publishers hesitant at the start. That won't be the case this time.

yvanjean said:

On top of that you had in mid-gen refresh that Sony did to the PS4, return of Nintendo has a power house( WiiU being a complete failure), popularity of mobile market and there simply no way Microsoft can have a worst launch than they did with Xb1.  Also, Sony manage amazing result when their competition were struggling.  That won't be the same for PS5. 

Ad nauseaum fallacy. I already made a counterargument to this assertion in which you have not properly addressed. Nintendo is now a powerhouse and yet, the PS4 is still doing well. Why would I expect Nintendo to a hypothetical reason for the PS5's struggles? I already touched on the popularity of the mobile market in my previous comment and pointed at how your chart is only a snapshot of what developers were interested in making games for at a particular point in time.

Even if Microsoft launches the XB2 more strongly, that doesn't mean the PS5 can not achieve good results. Your insinuation that Sony manages amazing results when their competition were struggling is an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You even said, yourself, that software is what drives consoles and Sony (and 3rd party developers) has been delivering compelling software throughout this generation. What if Sony provides the PS5 a substantially better launch lineup than the PS4?

yvanjean said:

If power, graphics and resolutions mattered so much the Nintendo Switch would not be a success right now.

And yet, you kept asserting that the PS5 would not be significantly more powerful than the XB1X as if that was a significant issue. This sentence is incongruent with what you were saying prior. It is also incongruent with your claim that the PS4 Pro to PS5 jump won't be a major improvement in the exact same comment. If power, graphics, and resolutions did not matter so much, then why are you trying so hard to make a false claim that there won't be a significant jump from the PS4 Pro to PS5? Actually, I will touch on that later.

yvanjean said:

There not much of Xb1-only gamers out there for Sony to steal from even I own a PS4. You know what's going to be much cheaper than a PS5 when it launch that potential Sony customer would want a PS4 Pro. Ps5 will lose some sales to their cheaper last gen consoles. Ps3 to PS4 was the longest between a refresh and everyone was ready for the next gen. That not the case for PS5.

Another ad nauseaum fallacy. Repeating the same talking points isn't going to help you. To repeat myself again, the PS4 Pro appeals to the core audience who is more knowledgeable about the rumblings of the video game market. In addition, the PS4 Pro was designed for Playstation fans who cared about power. If they care about power, then they would pick the PS5 over the PS4 Pro since the former will be substantially more powerful. It is very unlikely that the PS5 will lose sales to the PS4 Pro. The PS5 may "lose sales" to the cheaper standard PS4, but this is nothing new. The PS3 was cheaper than the PS4 when the latter launched, too. That didn't stop the PS4 from being very successful.

If you want to stick to your assertion, then you have to apply the same logic to the XB1X and XB2. As a matter of fact, wouldn't the difference in power between the XB1X and XB2 be smaller than the difference between the PS4 Pro and PS5? So theoretically, if we are to follow your logic, the amount of sales the XB2 will lose to the XB1X will be greater than the amount of sales the PS5 will lose to the PS4 Pro.

And here's another alternative counterargument that I have come up with. What it Sony reduces PS4 Pro production in favor of PS5 production? Sony can control how many PS4 Pro's can be manufactured and shipped. If Sony wants to push the PS5, then Sony can ramp up production and shipments of PS5's while doing the opposite to the PS4 Pro.

yvanjean said:

You also made the argument "You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate." but Sony as advertised PS4 Pro has 4k ready machine. The actual jump in resolution is 4k to 4k. PS4 Pro did not sell gang buster because there were no major improvement over the PS4. It's going to be the same thing with PS4 Pro to PS5. 

And here we go with another retread though in this case, you are now blatantly ignoring critical parts of my refutation. "Yeah, let's just talk about the resolution and ignore the parts where he talked about better textures and framerates. I'm sure he won't notice..." Also, no the actual jump in resolution is sometimes 1440p/sometimes 1800p or 1800c/sometimes 2160c to mostly 2160c/2160p. And this is only resolution we're talking about here. How about the texture resolution, shadow resolution, framerate, lighting, AI, and physics while we're at it? Oh, right, that would contradict your claim that there will be no major improvement from the PS4 Pro to PS5.

Oh, and you also ignored in my previous comments about (1) developers using the PS4 and XB1 as the base platforms, not the PS4 Pro and XB1X and (2) the PS5's potential usages of Zen 2 (CPU), Navi (GPU), and GDDR6 (RAM).

yvanjean said:

Except when it mattered the first year of this gen, Xb1 used to be more expensive until they drop the Kinect and gain $50 advantage. I wasn't too happy with the price of the Xb1X, would of been much better if was Cheaper and came bundle with one year of Gamepass. 

That still does not change the fact that consumers valued the PS4 more than the XB1 even though the former was $50 more expensive for much of 2015, 2016, and 2017. This year, we sometimes see the XB1 being sold for around $229, which is a $70 advantage over the cheapest PS4 SKU.

yvanjean said:

Rumors are that Microsoft software solution apparently was to focus on their studios on top of acquiring PlayGround Games and grow these studios so that they can have multiple project. Playground Games is currently working on Forza Horizon and Fable 4. Increase the staff at Coalition and 343 so that both studios have more then one project other then Halo 6 and Gears 5.  

Time will tell but Microsoft need to do much more...https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/microsoft-boosts-video-game-investment-as-focus-shifts-to-software. Microsoft need to do much better they are far behind when compared to Sony and Nintendo. They are fully aware of this fact. 

Technology we'll eventually surpass the need for a consoles, Switch and Smartphones/Tablets is an early example of change in trends. Eventually Smart TV will all have powerful micro PC and you will only need controller to play games.  In the past people talk about unrealistic growth of cloud gaming but just look how much they've closed the gap between mobile and consoles to see where tech is going. 

And how long will those games take? Has Fable 4 gone past the pre-planning stage? Will The Coalition and 343 try to churn out one more game this gen and if so, how long will it take after their next game to release their games for the XB2?

yvanjean said:

Technology we'll eventually surpass the need for a consoles, Switch and Smartphones/Tablets is an early example of change in trends. Eventually Smart TV will all have powerful micro PC and you will only need controller to play games.  In the past people talk about unrealistic growth of cloud gaming but just look how much they've closed the gap between mobile and consoles to see where tech is going. 

"Change in trends" is mere buzzword talk unless you actually show me empirical evidence that the mobile market is actually eating revenue away from the console market. In contrast, whenever I peruse the NPD threads on ResetERA, I often see Mat Piscatella citing growth in the video game market, particularly when it comes to software. But let me guess, you're just going to repeat the above paragraph with the words changed around?



Aura7541 said:

yvanjean said:

Well all of your apparent counter arguments seem more to me like you are stating your personal views as facts. Remember that this entire thread is conjecture and speculation, we are missing the most important piece of information release date for PS5.

That would describe your responses a lot more accurately than mine. I didn't state my personal views as facts. I made my counterarguments as potential reasons why the PS5 may do as well as the PS4 or better. You have not adequately refuted those points and yet again, you are making the same old recycled talking points ad nauseaum. Just because you can say the same things over and over again, doesn't make it true. Just because this thread is about speculation, it doesn't excuse your pitiful logic (e.g. your propensity to use red herrings and strawman fallacies).

Pitigul logic?? your counterarguments is to simply claim that i'm wrong. You simply ignore facts like there never been mid-gen refresh, PS4 release when there was no competition and sky rocket to the top.  The only claim you've made was that Sony can improve their first party launch lineup. You ask for facts and proof and provide none yourself, all you given us is the PS5 rumored specs  and  nothing about the external factor that will impact the PS5 launch. Where is your proof?!? Keep reading I'll provide my backing documents. 

yvanjean said:

PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4.

And what evidence do you have to suggest this? For someone who likes to accuse me for stating my personal views as facts, you sure love to do it yourself. In fact, I asked you to provide data such as a survey, but you didn't.

 Where is your data and survey to prove me wrong. Do you claim that Nintendo is not in a better position now with Nintendo Switch compare to the WiiU?
Do you think Microsoft had amazing launch with the Xbox One and there nothing they can do to do better? Do you believe that mobile market will have no effect on the console market. Can PS5 give a generation leap especially when compare to PS4 PRo?

https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/mobile-and-pc-online-gaming-to-dominate-consoles-33422976/
https://nintendosoup.com/nintendo-switch-outpacing-wii-ps4-global-sales/
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-microsoft-bungled-the-xbox-one-launch-2015-8
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2018-in-theory-can-a-potential-ps5-deliver-a-generational-leap




I already told you multiple times that late adopters are price conscious. They will only buy consoles if they're cheap. Those people who buy a PS4 late in this cycle will not get a PS5 until it becomes cheaper, too. Those aren't the same people who will buy the next gen console Day 1.

Casual market, people that ignore first party games is difference between the market leader in console gaming. Casual market is the aim to boost console sales. 

I can also make alternative counterarguments against your repetitive assertions. For instance, the PS3 was a pain in the ass to develop games. On the other hand, the PS5 will continue to use x86 like the PS4 which will make the learning curve significantly less steep. PS2 -> PS3 development is way harder than the PS4 -> PS5 transition. The PS4 -> PS5 transition will also be easier than the PS3 -> PS4 transition since this will be the very first time (or as you love to say, "something we never seen before") Sony will not be changing architectures. This will allow greater initial software output for the PS5. In addition, going into this generation, analysts predicted that this generation of consoles wouldn't do well which made a lot of developers/publishers hesitant at the start. That won't be the case this time.

Microsoft made it so easy to enhance game on the Xbox one X that every third party have jump on board to enhanced their game on the new systems. Claim that developers would only give Xbox one X the Ps4 pro patch and wouldn't use the Xbox one X full power turn out to be entirely wrong. 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/20/16340160/microsoft-xbox-one-x-enhanced-1080p-tv
https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-one-x-supersampling
https://www.pocket-lint.com/games/news/xbox/141563-xbox-one-x-enhanced-games-list-here-are-all-the-games-that-play-better-on-xbox-one-x

yvanjean said:

On top of that you had in mid-gen refresh that Sony did to the PS4, return of Nintendo has a power house( WiiU being a complete failure), popularity of mobile market and there simply no way Microsoft can have a worst launch than they did with Xb1.  Also, Sony manage amazing result when their competition were struggling.  That won't be the same for PS5. 

Ad nauseaum fallacy. I already made a counterargument to this assertion in which you have not properly addressed. Nintendo is now a powerhouse and yet, the PS4 is still doing well. Why would I expect Nintendo to a hypothetical reason for the PS5's struggles? I already touched on the popularity of the mobile market in my previous comment and pointed at how your chart is only a snapshot of what developers were interested in making games for at a particular point in time.

Even if Microsoft launches the XB2 more strongly, that doesn't mean the PS5 can not achieve good results. Your insinuation that Sony manages amazing results when their competition were struggling is an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. You even said, yourself, that software is what drives consoles and Sony (and 3rd party developers) has been delivering compelling software throughout this generation. What if Sony provides the PS5 a substantially better launch lineup than the PS4?

yvanjean said:

If power, graphics and resolutions mattered so much the Nintendo Switch would not be a success right now.

And yet, you kept asserting that the PS5 would not be significantly more powerful than the XB1X as if that was a significant issue. This sentence is incongruent with what you were saying prior. It is also incongruent with your claim that the PS4 Pro to PS5 jump won't be a major improvement in the exact same comment. If power, graphics, and resolutions did not matter so much, then why are you trying so hard to make a false claim that there won't be a significant jump from the PS4 Pro to PS5? Actually, I will touch on that later.

Did you not read what I said more powerful doesn't matter. Zelda breath of the wild and Nintendo odesey run on PS3 tech.  
http://vgculturehq.com/nintendo-proves-console-power-doesnt-matter/

yvanjean said:

There not much of Xb1-only gamers out there for Sony to steal from even I own a PS4. You know what's going to be much cheaper than a PS5 when it launch that potential Sony customer would want a PS4 Pro. Ps5 will lose some sales to their cheaper last gen consoles. Ps3 to PS4 was the longest between a refresh and everyone was ready for the next gen. That not the case for PS5.

Another ad nauseaum fallacy. Repeating the same talking points isn't going to help you. To repeat myself again, the PS4 Pro appeals to the core audience who is more knowledgeable about the rumblings of the video game market. In addition, the PS4 Pro was designed for Playstation fans who cared about power. If they care about power, then they would pick the PS5 over the PS4 Pro since the former will be substantially more powerful. It is very unlikely that the PS5 will lose sales to the PS4 Pro. The PS5 may "lose sales" to the cheaper standard PS4, but this is nothing new. The PS3 was cheaper than the PS4 when the latter launched, too. That didn't stop the PS4 from being very successful.

If you want to stick to your assertion, then you have to apply the same logic to the XB1X and XB2. As a matter of fact, wouldn't the difference in power between the XB1X and XB2 be smaller than the difference between the PS4 Pro and PS5? So theoretically, if we are to follow your logic, the amount of sales the XB2 will lose to the XB1X will be greater than the amount of sales the PS5 will lose to the PS4 Pro.

And here's another alternative counterargument that I have come up with. What it Sony reduces PS4 Pro production in favor of PS5 production? Sony can control how many PS4 Pro's can be manufactured and shipped. If Sony wants to push the PS5, then Sony can ramp up production and shipments of PS5's while doing the opposite to the PS4 Pro.

You said PS4 Pro appeals to the core audience, What happen when the PS4 Pro price drop to a casual friendly price. The price gap between PS4 Pro and PS5 will be big enough that casual market will not wont to pay for PS5. Consumer will want a system for their 4k TV and casual market will go with PS4 Pro. 

You are right about the difference in power between Xb1X and Xb2, but Microsoft is moving their business model away from consoles with play anywhere, gamepass & Xbox live. They won't care if your on Xb1X, Xb2 or PC because it will be the same Microsoft eco system. 

Microsoft has much less sales then PS4, their sales are made up of a much greater portion of core gamers. PS4 is on top because that's where all the casual gamers went to play their 3rd party games. 

yvanjean said:

You also made the argument "You'll likely see higher resolution textures, higher native resolution, and higher & more stable framerate." but Sony as advertised PS4 Pro has 4k ready machine. The actual jump in resolution is 4k to 4k. PS4 Pro did not sell gang buster because there were no major improvement over the PS4. It's going to be the same thing with PS4 Pro to PS5. 

And here we go with another retread though in this case, you are now blatantly ignoring critical parts of my refutation. "Yeah, let's just talk about the resolution and ignore the parts where he talked about better textures and framerates. I'm sure he won't notice..." Also, no the actual jump in resolution is sometimes 1440p/sometimes 1800p or 1800c/sometimes 2160c to mostly 2160c/2160p. And this is only resolution we're talking about here. How about the texture resolution, shadow resolution, framerate, lighting, AI, and physics while we're at it? Oh, right, that would contradict your claim that there will be no major improvement from the PS4 Pro to PS5.

Oh, and you also ignored in my previous comments about (1) developers using the PS4 and XB1 as the base platforms, not the PS4 Pro and XB1X and (2) the PS5's potential usages of Zen 2 (CPU), Navi (GPU), and GDDR6 (RAM).

Games of the year 2017 - Legend of Zelda breath of the wild - Nintendo switch spec 

Nintendo Switch Specs (as confirmed by Digital Foundry)
  • CPU: Four ARM Cortex A57 cores (theoretical max 2GHz)
  • GPU: 256 CUDA cores (theoretical max 1GHz)
  • Architecture: Nvidia second-generation Maxwell.
  • Texture: 16 pixels/cycle.
  • Fill: 14.4 pixels/cycle.
  • Memory: 4GB.
  • Memory Bandwidth: 25.6GB/s.
  • VRAM: Shared.

https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2017/08/22/xbox-one-x-ps4-pro-prove-old-console-cycle-dead/
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/02/12/nintendo-looking-to-extend-normal-console-life-cycle-with-switch

yvanjean said:

Except when it mattered the first year of this gen, Xb1 used to be more expensive until they drop the Kinect and gain $50 advantage. I wasn't too happy with the price of the Xb1X, would of been much better if was Cheaper and came bundle with one year of Gamepass. 

That still does not change the fact that consumers valued the PS4 more than the XB1 even though the former was $50 more expensive for much of 2015, 2016, and 2017. This year, we sometimes see the XB1 being sold for around $229, which is a $70 advantage over the cheapest PS4 SKU.

yvanjean said:

Rumors are that Microsoft software solution apparently was to focus on their studios on top of acquiring PlayGround Games and grow these studios so that they can have multiple project. Playground Games is currently working on Forza Horizon and Fable 4. Increase the staff at Coalition and 343 so that both studios have more then one project other then Halo 6 and Gears 5.  

Time will tell but Microsoft need to do much more...https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/microsoft-boosts-video-game-investment-as-focus-shifts-to-software. Microsoft need to do much better they are far behind when compared to Sony and Nintendo. They are fully aware of this fact. 

Technology we'll eventually surpass the need for a consoles, Switch and Smartphones/Tablets is an early example of change in trends. Eventually Smart TV will all have powerful micro PC and you will only need controller to play games.  In the past people talk about unrealistic growth of cloud gaming but just look how much they've closed the gap between mobile and consoles to see where tech is going. 

And how long will those games take? Has Fable 4 gone past the pre-planning stage? Will The Coalition and 343 try to churn out one more game this gen and if so, how long will it take after their next game to release their games for the XB2?
 

It will work on both consoles Microsoft plan to support Xb1X for a while, you will get much better graphic on Xb2. There won't be enhance version of game like we saw on Xb1/PS4 anymore because all game will scale and your gaming library will automatically convert to Xb2 from Xbox original, Xbox 360, Xbox one. So even if the game release before the launch of the Xb2, when you buy the new consoles, you will get an Enhance version. Using the same technology that is current being use with the XB1X. 

yvanjean said:

Technology we'll eventually surpass the need for a consoles, Switch and Smartphones/Tablets is an early example of change in trends. Eventually Smart TV will all have powerful micro PC and you will only need controller to play games.  In the past people talk about unrealistic growth of cloud gaming but just look how much they've closed the gap between mobile and consoles to see where tech is going. 

"Change in trends" is mere buzzword talk unless you actually show me empirical evidence that the mobile market is actually eating revenue away from the console market. In contrast, whenever I peruse the NPD threads on ResetERA, I often see Mat Piscatella citing growth in the video game market, particularly when it comes to software. But let me guess, you're just going to repeat the above paragraph with the words changed around?

My bad, sorry I though this was common knowledge here is the stats. 

https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/mobile-and-pc-online-gaming-to-dominate-consoles-33422976/



Tommy Jean, CPA, CGA

yvanjean said:

Pitigul logic?? your counterarguments is to simply claim that i'm wrong. You simply ignore facts like there never been mid-gen refresh, PS4 release when there was no competition and sky rocket to the top.

Yes, pitiful logic since you're dependent on using red herrings, strawman, and ad nauseaum fallacies. And no, I do not simply ignore facts. In one of my previous comments, I even acknowledged that fact. However, I also added other differences between the PS3 to PS4 and PS4 to PS5 transitions. Lastly, claiming that the PS4 released when there was no competition is patently false. Weaker competition? You can argue that, but saying that there is no competition is revisionist history.

yvanjean said:

The only claim you've made was that Sony can improve their first party launch lineup.

Not was not the only claim I made. Read my comments more carefully. You are deliberately ignoring other parts of my responses such as how PS4 BC provides an instant library at the beginning of the PS5's lifecycle.

yvanjean said:

You ask for facts and proof and provide none yourself, all you given us is the PS5 rumored specs  and  nothing about the external factor that will impact the PS5 launch. Where is your proof?!? Keep reading I'll provide my backing documents. 

So just because I (supposedly) don't provide proof, it means it's okay for you to do the same thing? You are not absolved from the responsibility to provide evidence. Anyways, the rumored specs are based on AMD's roadmaps. AMD recently had a press conference and their CPU & GPU roadmaps have remained unchanged. 7 nm production has also begun last month.

You know what? I have a better idea. How about you PM Pemalite who has a better grasp on technology than the both of us and see if his assessment more closely aligns with mine or yours?

So just from reading your 1st paragraph, you are arguing in bad faith. I guess red herrings, strawmen, and ad nauseaum fallacies weren't good enough for you, so now you're resorting to outright dishonesty.

yvanjean said:

Where is your data and survey to prove me wrong. Do you claim that Nintendo is not in a better position now with Nintendo Switch compare to the WiiU?

Do you think Microsoft had amazing launch with the Xbox One and there nothing they can do to do better? Do you believe that mobile market will have no effect on the console market. Can PS5 give a generation leap especially when compare to PS4 PRo?

The burden of proof falls on the person making the positive claim. This was your claim: "PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4."

What pieces of evidence do you have that supports this argument? What pieces of evidence do you have that proves my counterarguments against this particular part of your response wrong? The questions that you pose of the remainder of this portion of your response is yet another red herring. It is completely unrelated to your original claim and my refutation against it.

yvanjean said:

Casual market, people that ignore first party games is difference between the market leader in console gaming. Casual market is the aim to boost console sales. 

This is not even directly address my point that late adopters are price conscious and are not the same people who buy consoles Day 1. Are you even trying because I'm not even halfway through your response and this is pitifully low effort.

yvanjean said:

Microsoft made it so easy to enhance game on the Xbox one X that every third party have jump on board to enhanced their game on the new systems. Claim that developers would only give Xbox one X the Ps4 pro patch and wouldn't use the Xbox one X full power turn out to be entirely wrong. 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/20/16340160/microsoft-xbox-one-x-enhanced-1080p-tv
https://www.windowscentral.com/xbox-one-x-supersampling
https://www.pocket-lint.com/games/news/xbox/141563-xbox-one-x-enhanced-games-list-here-are-all-the-games-that-play-better-on-xbox-one-x

Completely unrelated to my argument about how this is the first time Sony will not be switching architectures from the PS4 to PS5.

And it doesn't take long for me to notice that you completely took my point about base development platforms incorrectly. XB1X games are effectively XB1 games. The games have to work on the XB1 which has significantly weaker specs. Your links only prove that XB1X enhanced games run better on the iteration. They don't say that they use the full power of the XB1X.

Anyways, that is three consecutive red herrings. This is extremely poor argumentation.

yvanjean said:

Did you not read what I said more powerful doesn't matter. Zelda breath of the wild and Nintendo odesey run on PS3 tech.  

http://vgculturehq.com/nintendo-proves-console-power-doesnt-matter/

Then be more consistent. If power doesn't matter, then stop trying to push the (false) notion that the upgrade from the PS4 Pro the PS5 will not be substantial. You even asked me for proof about the PS5's potential specs. To tell me that more power doesn't matter in context of your past comments and portions of your comment I'm currently responding to is inconsistent with the claims you've been emphasizing. Is your self-awareness that lacking that you can't even see how you've been contradicting yourself?

yvanjean said:

You said PS4 Pro appeals to the core audience, What happen when the PS4 Pro price drop to a casual friendly price. The price gap between PS4 Pro and PS5 will be big enough that casual market will not wont to pay for PS5. Consumer will want a system for their 4k TV and casual market will go with PS4 Pro. 

I already refuted this point. You just do not read my responses carefully enough. The PS4 will be even cheaper than the PS4 Pro. Price conscious consumers will go with the cheaper product which is the PS4, not the PS4 Pro. That's why 80% of PS4 sales are of the standard SKU. And nice going at ignoring the part where I said Sony could reduce PS4 Pro production in favor of pushing PS5 production and shipments. Also, good job at ignoring the part where I said consumers who buy the PS4 Pro do so because of power. However, since the PS5 will be significantly more powerful than the PS4 Pro, then they will opt for the PS5. Why would power conscious consumers opt for the weaker system?

yvanjean said:

You are right about the difference in power between Xb1X and Xb2, but Microsoft is moving their business model away from consoles with play anywhere, gamepass & Xbox live. They won't care if your on Xb1X, Xb2 or PC because it will be the same Microsoft eco system. 

Microsoft will still want the XB2 to do reasonably well as a way to retain active users. If consumers don't see the XB2 as a compelling system and migrate towards Steam or the PS5, then that constitutes lost active users and potential revenue sources.

yvanjean said:

Microsoft has much less sales then PS4, their sales are made up of a much greater portion of core gamers. PS4 is on top because that's where all the casual gamers went to play their 3rd party games. 

Do you have statistical evidence that proves this? Or is this just a mere assertion?

yvanjean said:

Games of the year 2017 - Legend of Zelda breath of the wild - Nintendo switch spec 

Nintendo Switch Specs (as confirmed by Digital Foundry)
  • CPU: Four ARM Cortex A57 cores (theoretical max 2GHz)
  • GPU: 256 CUDA cores (theoretical max 1GHz)
  • Architecture: Nvidia second-generation Maxwell.
  • Texture: 16 pixels/cycle.
  • Fill: 14.4 pixels/cycle.
  • Memory: 4GB.
  • Memory Bandwidth: 25.6GB/s.
  • VRAM: Shared.

https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2017/08/22/xbox-one-x-ps4-pro-prove-old-console-cycle-dead/
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/02/12/nintendo-looking-to-extend-normal-console-life-cycle-with-switch

This is your fourth red herring. I refuted your claim that there won't be a substantial upgrade from the PS4 Pro to PS5 (which by the way as I already stated, developers make games with the PS4 and XB1 in mind since they make up the vast majority of userbases). And then, you show the Nintendo Switch's specs... Sorry, but I have to ask you this again. Are you even trying?

yvanjean said:

It will work on both consoles Microsoft plan to support Xb1X for a while, you will get much better graphic on Xb2. There won't be enhance version of game like we saw on Xb1/PS4 anymore because all game will scale and your gaming library will automatically convert to Xb2 from Xbox original, Xbox 360, Xbox one. So even if the game release before the launch of the Xb2, when you buy the new consoles, you will get an Enhance version. Using the same technology that is current being use with the XB1X. 

And that will hamstring whatever features that the future games will have. Developers will have to design their games with the Jaguar CPU in mind, which is extremely weak. Aspects such as more advanced AI and physics will not happen on either the XB1X or XB2 versions unless the developers make their games exclusively for the XB2. Bungie could not get Destiny 2 to run 60fps on consoles even on the Pro and XB1X because Jaguar CPU is too weak. That's how bad it is. More powerful consoles are not just a matter of higher resolution and higher framerates.

But that is besides the point because this part of your response does not even remotely address my questions. Fifth time you have gone completely off topic.

yvanjean said:

My bad, sorry I though this was common knowledge here is the stats. 

https://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/mobile-and-pc-online-gaming-to-dominate-consoles-33422976/

That doesn't prove the notion that mobile gaming is taking revenue away from console gaming. One of the graphs show that there will be growth in console online and digital games, and they will grow to a larger degree than the shrinking of console physical sales. I do not see a correlation, let alone a causation. In addition, these are projections whereas I cited a source (Mat Piscatella) who is looking at how the video game market is doing now. Mobile gaming isn't about to grow, it already has grown substantially and for it to keep growing is not a surprise. However, just because there is substantial growth in one sector, it doesn't mean other sectors shrink. Both the console gaming and mobile gaming sectors can grow.



Aura7541 said:


bunch of stuff


Not was not the only claim I made. Read my comments more carefully. You are deliberately ignoring other parts of my responses such as how PS4 BC provides an instant library at the beginning of the PS5's lifecycle.

Your entire world seem to be so deep into the Sony eco system and you probably aren't aware that Microsoft already has enhanced BC and when the Xb2 release it won't be the Xb1 library but the entire Microsoft Xbox library. I guess your argument is that it only matters once it come to a Sony platform?? I heard rumors that E3 2018 Sony is expect to announce that they will finally bring PS1 & PS2 BC to PS4 so maybe one argument is going to gain more weight.

This is your entire counter-argument PS5 specs and PS4 BC later on in the thread you go on talking about specs are based on AMD's roadmaps. AMD recently had a press conference and their CPU & GPU roadmaps have remained unchanged. Guess what the competition is going to do. Microsoft has already proven ease of development with Xbox one X. They made it so easy that all XB1X enhance are make use of the full hardware power instead of simply getting the PS4 Pro upgrade. I've also provided links. Ease of development is even more important for Microsoft since they are the one that need to focus on better software to compete. 

Then be more consistent. If power doesn't matter, then stop trying to push the (false) notion that the upgrade from the PS4 Pro the PS5 will not be substantial. 

Well the only thing you've said so far was it's going to be substantial upgrade .... maybe if you comparing the PS5 to PS4. You've ignore any external factor that might impact PS5 and when I mention anything or any external factor you simply call everything red herrings, Strawman and ad nauseaum fallacies. 

You demand counter argument and facts and the only counter you came up with every time was that it's red herrings.

 Weaker competition? You can argue that, but saying that there is no competition is revisionist history.

You claim that I said there was no competition and accuse me of revisionist history. How about you look at history yourself or does all facts and historical data fall in the red herrings category?

The burden of proof falls on the person making the positive claim. This was your claim: "PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4."

So all of your claim doesn't have the same burden of proof or does your moderator status remove the burden of proof from every thing you've said. Look at the claim that I made and PS4 Pro would like to say HELLO ..... I've provided an article... 
https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2017/08/22/xbox-one-x-ps4-pro-prove-old-console-cycle-dead/ but I guess that was RED HERRINGS again? You've dealt with entire mid gen refresh by simply not acknowledging it. 

I already refuted this point. You just do not read my responses carefully enough. The PS4 will be even cheaper than the PS4 Pro. Price conscious consumers will go with the cheaper product which is the PS4, not the PS4 Pro. That's why 80% of PS4 sales are of the standard SKU. And nice going at ignoring the part where I said Sony could reduce PS4 Pro production in favor of pushing PS5 production and shipments. Also, good job at ignoring the part where I said consumers who buy the PS4 Pro do so because of power. However, since the PS5 will be significantly more powerful than the PS4 Pro, then they will opt for the PS5. 

You refuted this point? With what? You claim to have refuted multiple times and all you've provided were bold statement and speculation of your own. 

Wow you've made the argument Sony could reduce PS4 Pro production to push PS5? I guess burden of proof really doesn't apply to you, I can't even use Sony historical data (that would be red herring right?) that shown that Sony has always had an history of keeping the older version well stocked and kept supporting them long after they release their next gen consoles. 

Why would power conscious consumers opt for the weaker system?

Did you not just made the argument for me? "
 80% of PS4 sales are of the standard SKU". Your also making the assumption that a power conscious consumers are not also a price conscious consumers provide zero data to show how many PS4 consumers are power conscious consumers. (Burden of proof doesn't apply to you). In your scenario the power conscious consumers would have the choice between PS5 and PS4 Pro but will opt for the PS5. How come the power conscious consumers doesn't have a PS4 Pro??? 


 Oh, right, that would contradict your claim that there will be no major improvement from the PS4 Pro to PS5.

Show me where I claim there would be no major improvement from the PS4 Pro to the PS5. 

I stated that Nintendo can make a game on much weaker hardware and have that game be better then anything available on next-gen console and win game of the year.
I claim that consumer might actually buy the PS4 Pro over PS5 especially compare to PS3 to PS4. 
I stated that both the PS4 Pro and PS5 are or going to be 4k consoles. 
I claim that game will get PS4 Pro support long after PS5 release unless Sony waited till 2021 or later to launch the PS5. 
  

Last edited by yvanjean - on 07 June 2018

Tommy Jean, CPA, CGA

yvanjean said: 

Your entire world seem to be so deep into the Sony eco system and you probably aren't aware that Microsoft already has enhanced BC and when the Xb2 release it won't be the Xb1 library but the entire Microsoft Xbox library. I guess your argument is that it only matters once it come to a Sony platform?? I heard rumors that E3 2018 Sony is expect to announce that they will finally bring PS1 & PS2 BC to PS4 so maybe one argument is going to gain more weight.

I am aware that Microsoft already has enhanced BC. In fact, I mentioned it more than a week ago. Like I said already, your lack of self-awareness is the reason why you end up frequently self-contradicting yourself. You would not fall into this situation if you have actually kept track of your past comments and the entirety of the conversation.

Did I ever claim that my argument only matters when BC comes to the PS5? This is another strawman fallacy. Not only is your longterm memory is lacking, but your short-term memory is, too. My reference to PS4 BC was used in refutation against a false assertion you made that the only claim I made was that Sony can improve their first party launch lineup.

I also mentioned other points such as that PS4 BC will have its greatest benefits at the beginning of the PS5's lifecycle since (1) it helps give it an instant library, (2) PS4 owners who did not have the time to catch up with the entirety of the PS4's software offerings can still enjoy them with PS5 enhancements, and (3) it can help tide things over as the PS5's library grows from its infancy. You have addressed none of these points.

This is your entire counter-argument PS5 specs and PS4 BC later on in the thread you go on talking about specs are based on AMD's roadmaps. AMD recently had a press conference and their CPU & GPU roadmaps have remained unchanged. Guess what the competition is going to do. Microsoft has already proven ease of development with Xbox one X. They made it so easy that all XB1X enhance are make use of the full hardware power instead of simply getting the PS4 Pro upgrade. I've also provided links. Ease of development is even more important for Microsoft since they are the one that need to focus on better software to compete. 

Games running better =/= Games using the full hardware power. If games that work on the XB1X also work on the XB1, then those games are not made with the XB1X in mind. The XB1X has never been the base platform nor will it ever be. It will be left behind just like the PS4, XB1, and PS4 Pro as developers want to implement more advanced features that the Jaguar CPU cannot handle.

Well the only thing you've said so far was it's going to be substantial upgrade .... maybe if you comparing the PS5 to PS4. You've ignore any external factor that might impact PS5 and when I mention anything or any external factor you simply call everything red herrings, Strawman and ad nauseaum fallacies.

I don't simply call your arguments red herrings, strawman, and ad nauseaum fallacies for the sake of it. They are fallacies because (1) you do not address the topic at hand, (2) you try to smack down an argument I never proposed, and (3) you repeat the same talking points without addressing my counterarguments.

PS5 will be a substantial upgrade of all current gen consoles, not just the PS4. I already explained it here, here, and here. The first one that I linked is 5 days old and you still have not addressed the points I made that long ago.

You demand counter argument and facts and the only counter you came up with every time was that it's red herrings.

Because red herring fallacies are arguments that are not on topic. In order to make good arguments, then you must stay on topic in which you haven't. For example, in response to my argument that there will be substantial upgrade over the PS4/XB1/PS4 Pro/XB1X with the PS5, you do not respond by showing the Nintendo Switch spec sheet.

You claim that I said there was no competition and accuse me of revisionist history. How about you look at history yourself or does all facts and historical data fall in the red herrings category?

Because for there to be no competition, there has to be literally no competition. Having weaker competition is not having no competition. Also, you clearly do not understand what a red herring fallacy is because your claim that the PS4 had no competition at launch is a dishonest claim. Red herrings have to do with arguments that are not related to the topic, at hand.

So all of your claim doesn't have the same burden of proof or does your moderator status remove the burden of proof from every thing you've said. Look at the claim that I made and PS4 Pro would like to say HELLO ..... I've provided an article... 
https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2017/08/22/xbox-one-x-ps4-pro-prove-old-console-cycle-dead/ but I guess that was RED HERRINGS again? You've dealt with entire mid gen refresh by simply not acknowledging it. 

You clearly do not understand what proof means. Here is what proof means on the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"The cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact"

Evidence comes in the form of data or observable events that can be verified by multiple parties. Your link, however, is an editorial. The article links to no studies or surveys. You did not fulfill your burden of proof. And no, my moderator status doesn't grant me a reprieve, but it was you who made this claim, not me:

"PS5 launch seem more like the PS3 launch (where Sony fan were still content with their PS2) there won't be the same level of excitement to make the jump (Ps3 to Ps4) and Sony fan will be hesitant to leave their platform of choice the massively popular PS4."

Now show me a survey or a study that shows that a very large proportion of current PS4 owners are not willing to jump to the PS5. When you do that, then you have adequately fulfilled your burden of proof.

You refuted this point? With what? You claim to have refuted multiple times and all you've provided were bold statement and speculation of your own. 

Which SKU is cheaper? The PS4 or the PS4 Pro. Which SKU will the price conscious consumer will be more inclined to purchase? I can't wait to explain to me how me saying that the standard PS4 is cheaper than the PS4 Pro is a bold statement.

Wow you've made the argument Sony could reduce PS4 Pro production to push PS5? I guess burden of proof really doesn't apply to you, I can't even use Sony historical data (that would be red herring right?) that shown that Sony has always had an history of keeping the older version well stocked and kept supporting them long after they release their next gen consoles. 

Oh, so you have historical data that proves that Sony has a history of keeping upgraded iterations of consoles stocked long after the release of their next gen consoles? Even though the PS4 Pro is the first time Sony has done something like this? You are quick to accuse me of ignoring the differences between the PS3 to PS4 and PS4 to PS5 transitions and yet, you are willing to throw context out of the window to artificially boost your assertion. Let me ask you, if you are Sony and you want to put the PS5 in the best position to succeed, then wouldn't reducing PS4 Pro be one of those measures? After all, only 20% of the PS4 sales come from the PS4 Pro and 50% of the PS4 Pro purchases were made by people who already owned a PS4.

Did you not just made the argument for me? Your also making the assumption that a power conscious consumers are not also a price conscious consumers provide zero data to show how many PS4 consumers are power conscious consumers. (Burden of proof doesn't apply to you). In your scenario the power conscious consumers would have the choice between PS5 and PS4 Pro but will opt for the PS5. How come the power conscious consumers doesn't have a PS4 Pro???

You really like to throw basic logic out the window, do you? More power means you have to spend more money. That means power conscious consumers are more willing to part with more money than price conscious consumers. This also means that they will have no qualms spending more money on a PS5 than settling for a PS4 Pro. So no, I have not made the argument for you. This is just you being too desperate to find a gotcha moment.

In addition, there is nothing stopping standard PS4 owners from skipping the Pro to upgrade to the PS5. The jump will be pretty big and they can enjoy PS5 enhancements of PS4 games assuming there will be PS4 BC. There's also nothing stopping PS4 Pro owners from upgrading to the PS5. Even though the gap between the PS4 Pro and PS5 is smaller than that between the PS4 and PS5, the upgrade will still be substantial. After all, power conscious consumers are willing to spend money for more power.

Show me where I claim there would be no major improvement from the PS4 Pro to the PS5. 

Here"The actual jump in resolution is 4k to 4k. PS4 Pro did not sell gang buster because there were no major improvement over the PS4. It's going to be the same thing with PS4 Pro to PS5."

The fact that you're asking me to show your claim, in which you're the one responsible for your own words says a whole lot about your willingness to put in the legwork to support your arguments. That is... absolutely nothing.

I stated that Nintendo can make a game on much weaker hardware and have that game be better then anything available on next-gen console and win game of the year.

And yet, you said that the PS4 Pro did not sell gangbusters because it was not a major improvement over the PS4 and that it will be the same thing with the PS4 Pro to PS5. And then, you turn a 180 and point out at the Nintendo Switch to show that power doesn't matter.

Pick one. You can't have both.

I claim that consumer might actually buy the PS4 Pro over PS5 especially compare to PS3 to PS4. 

- Price conscious consumers will be more willing to buy a PS4 than a PS4 Pro because the former is cheaper.
- Sony has the ability to reduce PS4 Pro production in order to ramp up PS5 production, which will limit PS4 Pro supply.
- Power conscious consumers will likely opt for the PS5 over the PS4 Pro because unlike price conscious consumers, they are more willing to spend a premium for more power. If they buy the weaker system, then they are not power conscious.

I stated that both the PS4 Pro and PS5 are or going to be 4k consoles.

A reductive statement. I already said that there is more than just native resolution. Other aspects such as framerate, framepacing, VRR, shadow quality, texture resolution, AI, physics simulation, shading, and lighting come into play as well.

I claim that game will get PS4 Pro support long after PS5 release unless Sony waited till 2021 or later to launch the PS5.

So? The PS3 got support long after the PS4 released, but that didn't stop the PS4 from being successful. Let me guess, you're going to go back to the "last generation lasted too long" argument while ignoring the differences between the PS3 to PS4 and PS4 to PS5 transitions that I already mentioned that may give the PS5 some advantages over the PS4 which include:

- Smaller development learning curve due to Sony staying with x86 as opposed to going from CELL to x86
Sony's 1st party studios having found its rhythm in releasing their games on a consistent basis which may lead to PS5 owners not needing to wait as long for the PS5 1st party exclusives to come in.
- Backwards compatibility with PS4 games giving the PS5 an instant library for PS5 gamers to start off with as the PS5 library grows from its infancy.
- The retention of subscribers to the Playstation ecosystem, making the upgrade from PS4/Pro to PS5 not a matter of "if", but "when" because consumers will not want to throw their investment into the PS ecosystem down the drain.
- It will not be difficult to leap over the Killzone: Shadowfall and Knack launch lineup bar. The first game had a MC in the low 70s and Knack scored in the 50s. A stronger launch lineup may help the PS5 achieve a similar sales performance as the PS4.
  

Last edited by Aura7541 - on 07 June 2018