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Forums - Movies & TV - Solo Headed To Become A Flop? Yep, It Flopped.

 

How Much Will Solo Make WW?

Under $700M 56 60.87%
 
$700M-$800M 18 19.57%
 
$801M-$900M 12 13.04%
 
$901M-$1B 3 3.26%
 
Over $1B 3 3.26%
 
Total:92
Mandalore76 on 19 June 2018
Soundwave said:
Star Wars is overrated anyway, the main reason it took off in a huge way was because Lucas fluked out into the "lets make Darth Vader Luke's father" which wasn't even in the original Empire drafts that made that original series more interesting than it had any business being. Otherwise it would've just been Star Wars 2, Star Wars 3, etc. generic sequels to the first film. Lucas is a mediocre writer in many other respects, the prequels already proved he had no clue what he was doing. Disney is just trying to milk nostalgia from the OT but took too much risk with the character of Luke in VIII.

And Star Wars didn't have to compete against anything in the 70s/80s ... there was no LOTR trilogy, no Marvel films, no Avatar, no Matrix, no Spider-Man, no nothing, it was the only big fantasy IP at a time where like there were maybe 2-3 "big budget" blockbuster movies a year, now there's that many in a month. It was the only game in town.

The sequel trilogy was never going to be anything that mind blowing ... the story arc concluded in Return of the Jedi, they were never gonna top that.

Star Wars is not king, Cameron with all due respect is the king. Avatar and Titanic both beat every Star Wars film inflation adjusted, sorry Star Wars nerds. Marvel also has a better overall canon of characters .... far better, they have 60+ years of thousands of writers and hundreds of issues of depth to even "side characters" ... Star Wars characters like even Han Solo or Boba Fett (lol, gimme a break) are BORING compared to what you can do with Iron Man, Deadpool, Dr. Strange, Thor, etc. All those characters have fully formed story arcs, personalities, etc.

The success of the Star Wars franchise is a fluke that only happened because of the way the climax to Empire was written?  LOL!  Star Wars was a smash hit well before Empire.  The merchandising, which George Lucas negotiating sole rights to (I guess this must have been a fluke too!) was already off the charts.  They had to issue IOU's for the first wave of figures because of the demand.  If anything, the prequels prove that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing.  There is a very good reason why "A New Hope" starts off in medias res.  Lucas had a blueprint in his head for the Fall of the Republic, The Clone Wars, etc, but he was smart enough to know that the bits of the story that would most engage the general public came halfway through his planned story arc.  Everyone who sh*ts on Lucas because they didn't like the prequels conveniently forgets that he consciously made that decision.  They also ignore the fact that he created Indiana Jones (another successful and highly regarded series) and gave it to his friend Steven Spielberg, because he was too busy with Star Wars to film it.



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Soundwave on 19 June 2018
Mandalore76 said:
Soundwave said:
Star Wars is overrated anyway, the main reason it took off in a huge way was because Lucas fluked out into the "lets make Darth Vader Luke's father" which wasn't even in the original Empire drafts that made that original series more interesting than it had any business being. Otherwise it would've just been Star Wars 2, Star Wars 3, etc. generic sequels to the first film. Lucas is a mediocre writer in many other respects, the prequels already proved he had no clue what he was doing. Disney is just trying to milk nostalgia from the OT but took too much risk with the character of Luke in VIII.

And Star Wars didn't have to compete against anything in the 70s/80s ... there was no LOTR trilogy, no Marvel films, no Avatar, no Matrix, no Spider-Man, no nothing, it was the only big fantasy IP at a time where like there were maybe 2-3 "big budget" blockbuster movies a year, now there's that many in a month. It was the only game in town.

The sequel trilogy was never going to be anything that mind blowing ... the story arc concluded in Return of the Jedi, they were never gonna top that.

Star Wars is not king, Cameron with all due respect is the king. Avatar and Titanic both beat every Star Wars film inflation adjusted, sorry Star Wars nerds. Marvel also has a better overall canon of characters .... far better, they have 60+ years of thousands of writers and hundreds of issues of depth to even "side characters" ... Star Wars characters like even Han Solo or Boba Fett (lol, gimme a break) are BORING compared to what you can do with Iron Man, Deadpool, Dr. Strange, Thor, etc. All those characters have fully formed story arcs, personalities, etc.

The success of the Star Wars franchise is a fluke that only happened because of the way the climax to Empire was written?  LOL!  Star Wars was a smash hit well before Empire.  The merchandising, which George Lucas negotiating sole rights to (I guess this must have been a fluke too!) was already off the charts.  They had to issue IOU's for the first wave of figures because of the demand.  If anything, the prequels prove that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing.  There is a very good reason why "A New Hope" starts off in medias res.  Lucas had a blueprint in his head for the Fall of the Republic, The Clone Wars, etc, but he was smart enough to know that the bits of the story that would most engage the general public came halfway through his planned story arc.  Everyone who sh*ts on Lucas because they didn't like the prequels conveniently forgets that he consciously made that decision.  They also ignore the fact that he created Indiana Jones (another successful and highly regarded series) and gave it to his friend Steven Spielberg, because he was too busy with Star Wars to film it.

Without the "twist" in Empire, the story would've been fairly vanilla and you would've gotten Star Wars 2/3/4 type sequels, that plot twist made the story far more interesting than just a generic "good vs evil Flash Gordon for the 70s!" thing. 

George didn't have the blue print for any of this shit in his head, he had a one page outline of back story maybe at best and it was painfully obvious with the prequels he didn't plan out most of this stuff ("when I first knew your father he was already a great pilot" ... lol, that is a real stretch George). 

It's an overrated franchise that got put on a pedestal because it was the only really big franchise in the 70s/80s marketed/merchandised etc. that way. Without CGI things like Marvel and LOTR really couldn't have been done then, since the advent of CGI it's easy to make fantasy/sci-fi and now that Star Wars has to compete against like 50 other things, it's no longer that special, and they will never be able to top that story twist from Empire. 



Mandalore76 on 19 June 2018
Soundwave said:
Mandalore76 said:

The success of the Star Wars franchise is a fluke that only happened because of the way the climax to Empire was written?  LOL!  Star Wars was a smash hit well before Empire.  The merchandising, which George Lucas negotiating sole rights to (I guess this must have been a fluke too!) was already off the charts.  They had to issue IOU's for the first wave of figures because of the demand.  If anything, the prequels prove that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing.  There is a very good reason why "A New Hope" starts off in medias res.  Lucas had a blueprint in his head for the Fall of the Republic, The Clone Wars, etc, but he was smart enough to know that the bits of the story that would most engage the general public came halfway through his planned story arc.  Everyone who sh*ts on Lucas because they didn't like the prequels conveniently forgets that he consciously made that decision.  They also ignore the fact that he created Indiana Jones (another successful and highly regarded series) and gave it to his friend Steven Spielberg, because he was too busy with Star Wars to film it.

Without the "twist" in Empire, the story would've been fairly vanilla and you would've gotten Star Wars 2/3/4 type sequels, that plot twist made the story far more interesting than just a generic "good vs evil Flash Gordon for the 70s!" thing. 

George didn't have the blue print for any of this shit in his head, he had a one page outline of back story maybe at best and it was painfully obvious with the prequels he didn't plan out most of this stuff ("when I first knew your father he was already a great pilot" ... lol, that is a real stretch George). 

It's an overrated franchise that got put on a pedestal because it was the only really big franchise in the 70s/80s marketed/merchandised etc. that way. Without CGI things like Marvel and LOTR really couldn't have been done then, since the advent of CGI it's easy to make fantasy/sci-fi and now that Star Wars has to compete against like 50 other things, it's no longer that special, and they will never be able to top that story twist from Empire. 

That some pretty big revisionist history you've got worked up in your head:

This is from an interview back in 1980:
Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars saga.

George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.

AA: How much is written?

GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!



Azuren on 19 June 2018
Chris Hu said:
Even though its a bomb its not the biggest Disney bomb this year that would be A Wrinkle In Time. Also Pacific Rim Uprising is a bigger bomb despite being a lot more successful overseas and almost making $100 million in China. Speaking about China, Ready Player One pretty much got bailed out from being a bomb by almost making $220 million dollars there.

I do like how the only one that bombed harder also went harder on the SJW-isms. I couldn't even watch the trailer for that train wreck.



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Soundwave on 19 June 2018
Mandalore76 said:
Soundwave said:

Without the "twist" in Empire, the story would've been fairly vanilla and you would've gotten Star Wars 2/3/4 type sequels, that plot twist made the story far more interesting than just a generic "good vs evil Flash Gordon for the 70s!" thing. 

George didn't have the blue print for any of this shit in his head, he had a one page outline of back story maybe at best and it was painfully obvious with the prequels he didn't plan out most of this stuff ("when I first knew your father he was already a great pilot" ... lol, that is a real stretch George). 

It's an overrated franchise that got put on a pedestal because it was the only really big franchise in the 70s/80s marketed/merchandised etc. that way. Without CGI things like Marvel and LOTR really couldn't have been done then, since the advent of CGI it's easy to make fantasy/sci-fi and now that Star Wars has to compete against like 50 other things, it's no longer that special, and they will never be able to top that story twist from Empire. 

That some pretty big revisionist history you've got worked up in your head:

This is from an interview back in 1980:
Alan Arnold: Tell me more about the overall concept of the Star Wars saga.

George Lucas: There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years.

AA: How much is written?

GL: I have story treatments on all nine. I also have voluminous notes, histories, and other material I've developed for various purposes. Some of it will be used, some not. Originally, when I wrote Star Wars, it developed into an epic on the scale of War and Peace, so big I couldn't possibly make it into a movie. So I cut it in half, but it was still too big, so I cut each half into three parts. I then had material for six movies. After the success of Star Wars I added another trilogy but stopped there, primarily because reality took over. After all, it takes three years to prepare and make a Star Wars picture. How many years are left? So I'm still left with three trilogies of nine films. At two hours each, that's about eighteen hours of film!

Lucas has wildly changed his story over the years multiple times. When Revenge of the Sith came out he was adament there was only 6 films and that ROTS was absolutely the end of the story. 

Here's a fun interview with George saying politics were always a part of Star Wars and then a guy ripping Revenge of the Sith apart, lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giHnUr9wDu8



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DarthMetalliCube on 19 June 2018
thismeintiel said:
NightlyPoe said:

It really is all about the narrative with you.  In the end, Solo is going to do about 2/3 of Rogue One.  Are you really so monomaniacal that you believe that close to 2/3 of the Star Wars audience is boycotting?  That includes like 75% of the foreign audience that don't even share our politics.

Even a massively publicized controversy like the NFL kneeling stuff, which spawned hundreds of hours of news coverage, was stoked by Trump himself, and actively offended many Americans on a patriotic level, only saw a 10% audience decrease.  The Star Wars complaints?  Mostly confined to the internet among people who already agree with one another.

You're never going to make a compelling argument that your preferred narrative can account for more than a fraction of the drop in box office.  There aren't enough people who agree with you to even come close to account for this performance.  It's not excuse, or denials, it's common sense.  There's more going on here.

And your folly is thinking that no one outside the US can agree with "our politics."  There are people of all political bents across the world.  Just accept it. 

As for the kneeling, it must have had more of an impact than that if the NFL is now outright saying they will no longer allow it.  The drop in audience and merch sales must have been enough that they feared what would happen if they continued to allow it to happen.  The thing is the NFL is a BIG part of people's lives.  Many weren't just going to drop it, even if it the disliked the kneeling.  The fact that 10% just left is pretty shocking.  And the NFL knew more would leave this year if they allowed it to continue.

But, hey, you can continue to think the SJWs make up the vast majority of the US/world if that helps.  And ignore that even self-described Liberals are pissed that this stuff is being forced into SW.

I really wish people would stop associating hardcore SJW types with liberalism. It's not true liberalism. It's thinly veiled cultural Authoritarianism if anything disguised as fake virtue - people who view anything and everything from the lens of identity and want to exercise censorship, policies, and authority based around these constructs. If anything, it's quite a conservative way of thinking, or at least a neoconservative one.



 

"We hold these truths to be self-evident - all men and women created by the, go-you know.. you know the thing!" - Joe Biden

thismeintiel on 19 June 2018
Mandalore76 said:
Soundwave said:
Star Wars is overrated anyway, the main reason it took off in a huge way was because Lucas fluked out into the "lets make Darth Vader Luke's father" which wasn't even in the original Empire drafts that made that original series more interesting than it had any business being. Otherwise it would've just been Star Wars 2, Star Wars 3, etc. generic sequels to the first film. Lucas is a mediocre writer in many other respects, the prequels already proved he had no clue what he was doing. Disney is just trying to milk nostalgia from the OT but took too much risk with the character of Luke in VIII.

And Star Wars didn't have to compete against anything in the 70s/80s ... there was no LOTR trilogy, no Marvel films, no Avatar, no Matrix, no Spider-Man, no nothing, it was the only big fantasy IP at a time where like there were maybe 2-3 "big budget" blockbuster movies a year, now there's that many in a month. It was the only game in town.

The sequel trilogy was never going to be anything that mind blowing ... the story arc concluded in Return of the Jedi, they were never gonna top that.

Star Wars is not king, Cameron with all due respect is the king. Avatar and Titanic both beat every Star Wars film inflation adjusted, sorry Star Wars nerds. Marvel also has a better overall canon of characters .... far better, they have 60+ years of thousands of writers and hundreds of issues of depth to even "side characters" ... Star Wars characters like even Han Solo or Boba Fett (lol, gimme a break) are BORING compared to what you can do with Iron Man, Deadpool, Dr. Strange, Thor, etc. All those characters have fully formed story arcs, personalities, etc.

The success of the Star Wars franchise is a fluke that only happened because of the way the climax to Empire was written?  LOL!  Star Wars was a smash hit well before Empire.  The merchandising, which George Lucas negotiating sole rights to (I guess this must have been a fluke too!) was already off the charts.  They had to issue IOU's for the first wave of figures because of the demand.  If anything, the prequels prove that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing.  There is a very good reason why "A New Hope" starts off in medias res.  Lucas had a blueprint in his head for the Fall of the Republic, The Clone Wars, etc, but he was smart enough to know that the bits of the story that would most engage the general public came halfway through his planned story arc.  Everyone who sh*ts on Lucas because they didn't like the prequels conveniently forgets that he consciously made that decision.  They also ignore the fact that he created Indiana Jones (another successful and highly regarded series) and gave it to his friend Steven Spielberg, because he was too busy with Star Wars to film it.

I would just ignore him. From debating with him previously, I have come to the conclusion that he is just a big James Cameron fan who seems to be pissed that Cameron was never able to create a franchise that had the same impact as SW, so he constantly belittles it. 



 

Chris Hu on 19 June 2018
Azuren said:
Chris Hu said:
Even though its a bomb its not the biggest Disney bomb this year that would be A Wrinkle In Time. Also Pacific Rim Uprising is a bigger bomb despite being a lot more successful overseas and almost making $100 million in China. Speaking about China, Ready Player One pretty much got bailed out from being a bomb by almost making $220 million dollars there.

I do like how the only one that bombed harder also went harder on the SJW-isms. I couldn't even watch the trailer for that train wreck.

Nah, it mostly bombed because it wasn't a very good movie it wasn't better then the made for TV version of the film.  Pretty much all of the time movies bomb because they are bad.



thismeintiel on 19 June 2018
DarthMetalliCube said:
thismeintiel said:

And your folly is thinking that no one outside the US can agree with "our politics."  There are people of all political bents across the world.  Just accept it. 

As for the kneeling, it must have had more of an impact than that if the NFL is now outright saying they will no longer allow it.  The drop in audience and merch sales must have been enough that they feared what would happen if they continued to allow it to happen.  The thing is the NFL is a BIG part of people's lives.  Many weren't just going to drop it, even if it the disliked the kneeling.  The fact that 10% just left is pretty shocking.  And the NFL knew more would leave this year if they allowed it to continue.

But, hey, you can continue to think the SJWs make up the vast majority of the US/world if that helps.  And ignore that even self-described Liberals are pissed that this stuff is being forced into SW.

I really wish people would stop associating hardcore SJW types with liberalism. It's not true liberalism. It's thinly veiled cultural Authoritarianism if anything disguised as fake virtue - people who view anything and everything from the lens of identity and want to exercise censorship, policies, and authority based around these constructs. If anything, it's quite a conservative way of thinking, or at least a neoconservative one.

People associate it with Liberalism (modern, not classic Liberalism) because that is how many SJWs would classify themselves.  People on the Left are also more likely to sympathize with their objectives and cause. 



 

Soundwave on 19 June 2018
thismeintiel said:
Mandalore76 said:

The success of the Star Wars franchise is a fluke that only happened because of the way the climax to Empire was written?  LOL!  Star Wars was a smash hit well before Empire.  The merchandising, which George Lucas negotiating sole rights to (I guess this must have been a fluke too!) was already off the charts.  They had to issue IOU's for the first wave of figures because of the demand.  If anything, the prequels prove that Lucas knew exactly what he was doing.  There is a very good reason why "A New Hope" starts off in medias res.  Lucas had a blueprint in his head for the Fall of the Republic, The Clone Wars, etc, but he was smart enough to know that the bits of the story that would most engage the general public came halfway through his planned story arc.  Everyone who sh*ts on Lucas because they didn't like the prequels conveniently forgets that he consciously made that decision.  They also ignore the fact that he created Indiana Jones (another successful and highly regarded series) and gave it to his friend Steven Spielberg, because he was too busy with Star Wars to film it.

I would just ignore him. From debating with him previously, I have come to the conclusion that he is just a big James Cameron fan who seems to be pissed that Cameron was never able to create a franchise that had the same impact as SW, so he constantly belittles it. 

You're the one who's turned this into a zero sum game where box office is tied directly to how good a film is or what's relevant. 

So by your own logic Cameron IS the rightful king of your fanboy throne. Titanic and Avatar BOTH made more than any Star Wars or Marvel or any nerd franchise you want to bring up. So bend the knee. 

Also the Avatar ride has become the biggest attraction at Disney parks, with thousands of people waiting 2-3 hours in a line up just to get on a 5 minute Avatar, that's in the here and now. People underestimate that franchise at their own risk, what the "general public" and what the "nerd community online" thinks are often two very different things.

Last edited by Soundwave - on 19 June 2018