By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close
numberwang on 03 June 2018
VGPolyglot said:
numberwang said:

Leave it to VGP to tire a feminist with too much feminism.

That's implying that I do not consider myself a feminist. However, essentially my argument is that trans women should be included in the feminist movement because they want to be accepted as women, while trans men want to be accepted as men and repeatedly calling them women and saying that they're women and will always be women and that they're not men is damaging to them.

You are the illusive 4th wave feminist that is overcoming that troglodyte 3rd waver.

Only on VGChartz.



Around the Network
VGPolyglot on 03 June 2018
numberwang said:
VGPolyglot said:

That's implying that I do not consider myself a feminist. However, essentially my argument is that trans women should be included in the feminist movement because they want to be accepted as women, while trans men want to be accepted as men and repeatedly calling them women and saying that they're women and will always be women and that they're not men is damaging to them.

You are the illusive 4th wave feminist that is overcoming that troglodyte 3rd waver.

Only on VGChartz.

Well, I guess I have someone else to add to my ignore list, you're clearly uninterested in having serious conversation.



numberwang on 03 June 2018

Here is something interesting, 160 women were asked if they preferred a muscular over a normal/slim male body (using photos).

Researchers asked 160 women to rate the attractiveness of headless male torsos and every single woman chose the stronger men over the weak. Some women may claim that chiselled abs and giant biceps are not what they are seeking in a man. But a scientific study suggests that if your female partner tells you this, she is probably just being kind.

“We weren’t surprised that women found physically strong men attractive ... what did surprise us was just how powerful the effect was,” said Aaron Sell, a senior lecturer at Griffith University, Queensland, Australia, who led the work. “Our data couldn’t find even a single woman that preferred weaker or feminine male bodies.”

The strength of a man was by far the strongest predictor of whether he was rated as attractive - it explained 70% of the difference in scores.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/dec/13/polish-up-your-pecs-women-prefer-strong-men-say-scientists

Last edited by numberwang - on 03 June 2018

Jaicee on 03 June 2018
numberwang said:

Leave it to VGP to tire a feminist with too much feminism.

I'm not tired of the debate, I just don't have all day, every day to spend on this message board is all. I spend most of my waking hours at work six days a week. I will respond further on this thread in a couple days when I feel that I've got adequate time to (and feel like it).

I also feel that I've articulated my view on the particular subject of transgenderism about as well as I can at this point anyway. It's not that I enjoy hurting people's feelings, but at the end of the day, facts matter more than the way people feel about them. Besides which I could say something about people on the other side of this argument attaching labels to me that I didn't choose (like "cisgender" or "TERF") if feelings are all we're concerned about anyway, but I don't feel that it's worth going deep into the thicket of all that.



VGPolyglot on 03 June 2018
zero129 said:
Jaicee said:

I feel that the formulation above loses something important, indeed defining, about feminism: women!

Feminism, as the term suggests, is about liberating women from patriarchal social relations. It's not about making men feel better or apologizing for having won some reforms and agreeing to compromise them away. It's not a men's movement for women. It isn't #NotYourShield or #NotAllMen. I just think we need to remember that.

The onus of preventing misogynistic violence such as we are discussing here is not on us as women. It is on those who commit it and on a culture that promotes the corresponding mindset that led thereto. I think there are ways in which men can benefit from the changing of such a culture, yes. In the long run. In secondary ways that cost many special privileges. But I just think we need to remember who the women's movement is primarily for, not just who it may benefit eventually by proxy effect.

I have not posted here in awhile but just had to with this topic.

I knew from the OP of this topic, that it had to be one of them kind of topics that once again try to paint "All" men with the one brush while acting like women dont have problems other then the ones men put on them "Talk about placing blame on others" Plenty of women commit violence on other women and men. Hell i know some women that can be a lot sicker then men. What about the women in the feminist movement who wants death to all men and bullshit like that?. Plenty of videos online of self proclaimed feminist saying shit like that.

Just because you and others are putting a name to a bunch of sick men and trying to make it look like some kind of movement that all men support and or think like to help push your own agenda and movement that all men are violent and women are some kind of self loving peace keepers doesnt make it so.. Just as im sure not all feminist or women are "feminazi's" , another term that's been used to describe many in the feminist movement who are under the impression that all men are against them and in return calls for violence on men.

I don't think she's necessarily saying that all men are the problem, or that women do nothing wrong, more that the system as it currently is more advantageous to men than it is to women. However, I do think that men who want to help the cause should definitely be allowed to participate; granted we cannot truly understand the difficulties that women face, however we can at least try to help recognize things that we could do differently in order not to perpetuate the oppressive system. Where she and I definitely do come to a disagreement though are thoughts on sexual orientation and transsexualism, I do not think that women can essentially free themselves by choosing to become homosexual, as from personal anecdotes I've tried to "become" bisexual/pansexual through a desire to have a more open mindset, however no matter how hard I'd try I could only achieve limited sexual attraction towards men. As for transsexualism, Jaicee is of the belief that it does not truly exist, while my belief is that transsexuals are real and that not accepting them into their desired gender is very harmful and potentially lethal.



Around the Network
VGPolyglot on 03 June 2018
Jaicee said:
numberwang said:

Leave it to VGP to tire a feminist with too much feminism.

I'm not tired of the debate, I just don't have all day, every day to spend on this message board is all. I spend most of my waking hours at work six days a week. I will respond further on this thread in a couple days when I feel that I've got adequate time to (and feel like it).

I also feel that I've articulated my view on the particular subject of transgenderism about as well as I can at this point anyway. It's not that I enjoy hurting people's feelings, but at the end of the day, facts matter more than the way people feel about them. Besides which I could say something about people on the other side of this argument attaching labels to me that I didn't choose (like "cisgender" or "TERF") if feelings are all we're concerned about anyway, but I don't feel that it's worth going deep into the thicket of all that.

I admit I wasn't aware that the term TERF was considered a slur, but I still don't understand why that is the case. You yourself self-describe as a radical feminist, and you exclude transsexual women from your cause, so I don't see how that is hateful at all when it seems to describe it exactly.



Jaicee on 03 June 2018
VGPolyglot said:

I admit I wasn't aware that the term TERF was considered a slur, but I still don't understand why that is the case. You yourself self-describe as a radical feminist, and you exclude transsexual women from your cause, so I don't see how that is hateful at all when it seems to describe it exactly.

Here's an at-length explanation. The short version is that it's a imposed term that is frequently used to incite violence.



VGPolyglot on 03 June 2018
Jaicee said:
VGPolyglot said:

I admit I wasn't aware that the term TERF was considered a slur, but I still don't understand why that is the case. You yourself self-describe as a radical feminist, and you exclude transsexual women from your cause, so I don't see how that is hateful at all when it seems to describe it exactly.

Here's an at-length explanation. The short version is that it's a imposed term that is frequently used to incite violence.

I don't see how using TERF would incite violence anymore than calling people racists or fascists would, though.



Jaicee on 03 June 2018
VGPolyglot said:

I don't see how using TERF would incite violence anymore than calling people racists or fascists would, though.

I recommend reading the article.



VGPolyglot on 03 June 2018
Jaicee said:
VGPolyglot said:

I don't see how using TERF would incite violence anymore than calling people racists or fascists would, though.

I recommend reading the article.

I see that, but what would you prefer I use? If you want a self-identified term, I'll use it, but I'm definitely not going to agree with your thoughts on transgender issues. I also don't understand this argument:

"Understanding that gender is imposed, and is oppressive/exists to create a hierarchy between men and women."

How can you simultaneously say that gender is imposed, and refuse to accept those who refuse to have the sex that they don't associate with imposed on them?