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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - When we should start seeing Nintendo's combined development really take effect?

TheMisterManGuy said:

One of the biggest promises of Nintendo Switch, is Nintendo combining their Home Console and Handheld worlds into one. In theory, allowing them to concentrate almost exclusively on a single platform, and thus them to produce more titles in a single year than before.

The amount of games Nintendo outputs if all other things remained equal... Will remain the same. - But what would increase is the amount of games on a singular platform if Nintendo didn't change any development studios around and such that is.

But the other side of the coin is... What if developing for the Switch, As it pushes higher fidelity visuals than any Nintendo platform that has come before it, takes longer? You will still end up with less games.

The other caveat is that... Your entire hypothesis rests on the idea that Nintendo will NOT release another device, be it a portable or home console.

TheMisterManGuy said:

We have the launch of Nintendo Labo, which is technically launching with 2 games in April.

Wasn't Labo an overpriced colossal failure?


TheMisterManGuy said:

Followed by both Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze

Isn't that just a re-release of an old game?

TheMisterManGuy said:

Hyrule Warriors Legends

Isn't that just a re-release of an old game?


TheMisterManGuy said:

Sushi Striker and Mario Tennis Aces in June

Are they really big AAA console sellers though?


TheMisterManGuy said:

Captain Toad and Octopath Traveler

Never heard of them. Hope they do well for those that like those kinds of games.


TheMisterManGuy said:


I imagine Nintendo is going to continue to challenge themselves to produce as many games for a single month as they can.

Of course they will. Just like water is wet. Nintendo is a business, it makes a substantial amount of revenue from games.

TheMisterManGuy said:

Who says they all have to be AAA games? They can just be small, experimental oddities like 1-2 Switch, Snipperclips, and Sushi Striker. It'd be similar to the DS, where you had big name releases, but also lower budget experiments like Electroplankton and Master of Illusion releasing in the same month often times. Point is, there's no reason games like those can't come from Nintendo on the Switch, especially since the system was designed to be as easy and low-cost to develop for as possible.

If the games are priced at a similar level as AAA games on other consoles, they better offer the reproduction values to match.

snyps said:

I know what you are saying and I agree. But there’s that lingering thought in the back of my mind that says”what’s Nintendo gonna do when ps5/Xbox Zero comes out?”

 

probably a switch revision ion but I grew up with Nintendo power so I always hold out hope for real power and possibly some room for gratuitous violence and sexual implications from otherwise family oriented game developers. 


If the DS and 3DS are any indication there will be a heap of revisions.
But in a few years when movement of the next Xbox and Playstation start to roll around... The Switch will look positively ancient. (In-fact, some games already do look ancient.... But I digress.)

TheMisterManGuy said:

I mean Nintendo can take their time with Open World AAA games so long as we get handheld style games, casual focused oddities, and niche experiments in between them. 

This is the thing I don't get... And what I think people should start to ask. But... Why?  What's the point?

On other platforms, especially the PC and Android... Handheld style games, casual focused oddities and niche experiments are the norm, not the exception, Nintendo should tap into those efforts instead of wasting it's limited resources and focus on the big projects that bring attention to it's platforms.

There is a reason why Sony tends to dominate the news cycles in the gaming world extremely often... Because of the likes of God of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted and so on just ends up being the talk of the entire industry... And for good reason.

snyps said:

But GameCube did have 1-2 heavy hitters per month and it still wasn’t enough. GBA and 3DS had so many titles produced by endless sources and that is what switch needs. 


There was absolutely nothing anyone could do in the face of the Playstation 2 that generation. And there is more to a platform than just games anyway.
I.E. Who wants to buy a Gamecube when the Playstation 2 could play the "revolutionary" (At the time!) DVD?


Nem said:

I wish people understood the difference in resources necessary to make a 3DS game and an HD game.

Needless to say, it's not a 1 to 1 ratio.

HD games take at least 2 years to develop. Nowadays it's creeping up to 3. Nintendo is trying to get alot of games out by porting the Wii U library, but it's starting to lose steam.
We'll see if they got anything at E3.

But, i do think that the Switch is a bit barren atm for people who owned a Wii U at least or want fresh new experiences.

I figure that pokemon will make a huge difference if it's a mainline game though.

What you are describing is the effort that is required to build the assets to make games look good at various display resolutions.

Games don't actually instantly get more expensive to develop just because your game is now HD.

Nem said:

No, it's not the same. You increase the resolution, you have to increase the detail, wich means more work to create every piece of asset... or you can deliver a blurry mess. You heard it here first folks! Lets just strech out those 3DS games and put then on the Switch. It's gonna look amazing on 720/1080p!

Cmon now... i'm not gonna repeat this again.

Not always. And obviously you haven't emulated a 3DS game on PC, the higher resolution can make some of the smaller details really pop, cleans up the image and gives it a superior presentation.

It's not just "stretching" the image.

TheMisterManGuy said:

I seriously doubt that as they're heavily recycling assets from already existing games, and are often the same resolution. Those Wii U ports had to have been made in a year, maybe less. I could see something like Yoshi Switch taking around 2 years to make, but It does not take 2 years to make an enhanced Wii U port. 

I think porting games from the Wii U to the Switch would be on the timescales of weeks, maybe a few months, rather than years.
Obviously doing all the testing and tweaking would eat into that after the fact.
But porting speeds should be pretty quick, the Switch relying on nVidia's tools, Android tools and so on is likely a massive advantage for it in that regard.







--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

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Pemalite said:

The amount of games Nintendo outputs if all other things remained equal... Will remain the same. - But what would increase is the amount of games on a singular platform if Nintendo didn't change any development studios around and such that is.

But the other side of the coin is... What if developing for the Switch, As it pushes higher fidelity visuals than any Nintendo platform that has come before it, takes longer? You will still end up with less games.

The other caveat is that... Your entire hypothesis rests on the idea that Nintendo will NOT release another device, be it a portable or home console.

Nintendo's never been a company who's cared about pushing the limits of their hardware, nor have they cared about bleeding edge graphics. Granted a game like Super Mario Odyssey will obviously require more time and resources to make than a game like 3D Land. But the point isn't so that we get Odyssey and 3D Land on the same system, it's that we'd get Odyssey, plus some random small project the team also decided to make. 

Wasn't Labo an overpriced colossal failure?

It wasn't. This narrative that Labo is a failure is complete BS. It's been in the top 5 in Japan since launch, and was one of the best selling games in April according to the NPD. That doesn't sound like failure to me.

Isn't that just a re-release of an old game?

Yes, but let's face it, nobody played the Wii U.

Are they really big AAA console sellers though?

Not the point, point is we can get things like one big release in June, plus some oddball niche game or two accompanying it. 

Of course they will. Just like water is wet. Nintendo is a business, it makes a substantial amount of revenue from games.

Yeah, they're possibly the most prolific major publisher in the industry at the moment, and the majority of their revenue comes from the amount of games they release exclusively for their hardware. 

If the games are priced at a similar level as AAA games on other consoles, they better offer the reproduction values to match.

I mean yeah, but Nintendo can release these smaller games at a sub-$60 price, or drop them on the eShop. Just like with 1-2 Switch, Snipperclips, Sushi Striker, and Captain Toad. 



zorg1000 said:
spemanig said:

I'm not being negative. Nintendo has been reaffirming it's commitment to 3DS time and time again, and now I don't see support stopping until like 2020. By that time, they'll have to start their combined development. So by the time we actually get the full brunt of it, it'll be way too late for it to matter. I think the Switch will last for decades, but I think "too late to matter" has already approached now.

Switch is awesome though. Don't get me wrong. It's just clear that that mission isn't really relevant anymore. Switch doesn't need it to succeed.

I posted this is another thread

 

2018 1st party 3DS titles

March-Detective Pikachu (localization of a 2016 game)

June-Sushi Striker (also coming to Switch same day)

July-Captain Toad (also coming to Switch same day)

August-WarioWare (compilation of existing minigames)

2018-Luigi's Mansion (port of 2001 Gamecube game)

 

I think people are blowing the 3DS support out of proportion.

I've been had.



TheMisterManGuy said:
Nintendo's never been a company who's cared about pushing the limits of their hardware, nor have they cared about bleeding edge graphics. Granted a game like Super Mario Odyssey will obviously require more time and resources to make than a game like 3D Land. But the point isn't so that we get Odyssey and 3D Land on the same system, it's that we'd get Odyssey, plus some random small project the team also decided to make. 

Nintendo have always pushed the limits of their hardware. Mario Kart, Smash, Breath of the Wild and so on were all examples on the WiiU.

TheMisterManGuy said:

It wasn't. This narrative that Labo is a failure is complete BS. It's been in the top 5 in Japan since launch, and was one of the best selling games in April according to the NPD. That doesn't sound like failure to me.

Hence my question and why I didn't throw in a statement instead.

TheMisterManGuy said:

Yes, but let's face it, nobody played the Wii U.

Irrelevant. A Re-release is still a bloody re-release no matter the excuses you try and make.

TheMisterManGuy said:
Not the point, point is we can get things like one big release in June, plus some oddball niche game or two accompanying it. 

Why not just turn that into several big releases and tap into the stupidly massive PC/Android market instead?

TheMisterManGuy said:
Yeah, they're possibly the most prolific major publisher in the industry at the moment, and the majority of their revenue comes from the amount of games they release exclusively for their hardware. 

And props to them, it's a very sound business model that obviously works and continues to work.
They are certainly the polar opposite to say... Microsoft that's for sure. - But that is not always a bad thing either, because a game like Minecraft gets exposed to more gamers, more platforms and the consumer ultimately wins, even if Microsoft itself doesn't.

TheMisterManGuy said:
I mean yeah, but Nintendo can release these smaller games at a sub-$60 price, or drop them on the eShop. Just like with 1-2 Switch, Snipperclips, Sushi Striker, and Captain Toad.

But... Have they?
Just stating "can" is not a definitive answer.

Please use the quote system properly in future, it makes replying significantly easier.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

Nintendo have always pushed the limits of their hardware. Mario Kart, Smash, Breath of the Wild and so on were all examples on the WiiU.

Nintendo games look great because they're backed by strong art direction and aesthetic design. They actually don't try to challenge themselves to make the most bleeding edge graphics possible, but rather make great use of the relatively limited hardware.

Hence my question and why I didn't throw in a statement instead.

Understandable, I'm just saying that Labo isn't a failure. In fact, it's far to early to say anything about it really. Christmas should really be its true tests in the market.

Irrelevant. A Re-release is still a bloody re-release no matter the excuses you try and make.

You'd have a point if these were re-releases from a console people loved. But this was the Wii U, a console nobody wanted, and most have never heard of. As far as those people are concerned, these might as well be new games, even if they are just re-releases. 

Why not just turn that into several big releases and tap into the stupidly massive PC/Android market instead?

The Switch is a very different market from both traditional mobile gaming and mainstream home console games. It's unique hardware and power allows it to do stuff phones can't do, at least not nearly as well, such as Nintendo Labo. So letting developers toy around with the Joy-Con and Switch to make lower budget releases can be a good way of diversifying the catalog and audience. And besides, Nintendo is already making strides to be more successful in the smartphone arena.

And props to them, it's a very sound business model that obviously works and continues to work.
They are certainly the polar opposite to say... Microsoft that's for sure. - But that is not always a bad thing either, because a game like Minecraft gets exposed to more gamers, more platforms and the consumer ultimately wins, even if Microsoft itself doesn't.

Agreed

But... Have they?
Just stating "can" is not a definitive answer.

I already listed examples of them doing so, so they're more than willing to do so it seems. 

Last edited by TheMisterManGuy - on 21 May 2018

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TheMisterManGuy said:
Pemalite said:

Nintendo have always pushed the limits of their hardware. Mario Kart, Smash, Breath of the Wild and so on were all examples on the WiiU.

Nintendo games look great because they're backed by strong art direction and aesthetic design. They actually don't try to challenge themselves to make the most bleeding edge graphics possible, but rather make great use of the relatively limited hardware.

I have a firm understanding of how game engines and their accompanying rendering pipelines work and how games achieve what they do on the visual front.
If you think Nintendo pulls what it does off merely by having strong art direction and aesthetic design, then you are sorely mistaken, it's a big part of it, sure.

TheMisterManGuy said:

Understandable, I'm just saying that Labo isn't a failure. In fact, it's far to early to say anything about it really. Christmas should really be its true tests in the market.

Isn't the typical sales trend norm where sales decreases over time rather than increases?

TheMisterManGuy said:
Irrelevant. A Re-release is still a bloody re-release no matter the excuses you try and make.

You'd have a point if these were re-releases from a console people loved. But this was the Wii U, a console nobody wanted, and most have never heard of. As far as those people are concerned, these might as well be new games, even if they are just re-releases.

Again. Irrelevant. They are still re-releases. You can try and frame it however you want to try and paint a picture... Fact is... They are re-releases.

TheMisterManGuy said:

The Switch is a very different market from both traditional mobile gaming and mainstream home console games. It's unique hardware and power allows it to do stuff phones can't do, at least not nearly as well, such as Nintendo Labo. So letting developers toy around with the Joy-Con and Switch to make lower budget releases can be a good way of diversifying the catalog and audience. And besides, Nintendo is already making strides to be more successful in the smartphone arena.

...I think you missed the point I was trying to convey?



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:

I have a firm understanding of how game engines and their accompanying rendering pipelines work and how games achieve what they do on the visual front.
If you think Nintendo pulls what it does off merely by having strong art direction and aesthetic design, then you are sorely mistaken, it's a big part of it, sure.

Alright, yes they do try to get a lot out of their technology I will admit. I'm just saying they don't rely heavily on super detailed textures or complex physics for the majority of their games. 

Isn't the typical sales trend norm where sales decreases over time rather than increases?

For any other game, yes. But Labo's not your typical game. It's a construction toy, with multiple sets to sell. Not only that, but toys make the vast majority of their sales during holidays and Christmas, which is why Labo got a bump during GW. Add in the fact that Nintendo games typically have long legs, and its too early to say Labo's a failure. Of course, it isn't doing monster numbers at the moment, but it's still swimming along at a relatively steady pace. 

Again. Irrelevant. They are still re-releases. You can try and frame it however you want to try and paint a picture... Fact is... They are re-releases.

I'm not saying they aren't re-releases, I'm just saying that unless you were one of the 3 people who owned these games on Wii U, then these may as well be new games to the general consumer. That doesn't change the fact that they're re-releases, it just means that these re-releases are a special case. 

...I think you missed the point I was trying to convey?

You seemed to imply that Nintendo should just focus on sure-fire, big budget hits and leave the little crap to smart phone. I'm arguing that isn't realistic when AAA games cost a lot of money, time, and resources to make. Many times, it's good for developers to toy around with small stuff in between that. Those smaller scale games, may actually end up taking off too. But if you meant something completely different from what I'm saying, then feel free to clarify. 



TheMisterManGuy said:
zorg1000 said:

Exactly, we arent going to get 3DS+Wii U output but it will be a good deal better than each of those got individually and already is in the same timeframe.

It honestly wouldnt surprise me if these Wii U ports with added content require a similar amount of resources as an average sized 3DS game.

I seriously doubt that as they're heavily recycling assets from already existing games, and are often the same resolution. Those Wii U ports had to have been made in a year, maybe less. I could see something like Yoshi Switch taking around 2 years to make, but It does not take 2 years to make an enhanced Wii U port. 

Even AAA ports are made in 1 year max, Wii U ports are probably made in 6-9 months period.

 

Biggerboat1 said: 
zorg1000 said: 
Breath of the Wild
1 2 Switch
Snipperclips
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
ARMS
Splatoon 2
Mario+Rabbids
Pokken Tournament DX
Fire Emblem Warriors
Mario Odyssey
Xenoblade Chronicles 2
Bayonetta 2
Kirby Star Allies
Nintendo Labo Variety
Nintendo Labo Robot
DKC: Tropical Freeze
Hyrule Warriors DX
Sushi Striker
Mario Tennis Aces
Octopath Traveler
Captain Toad
Yoshi
Fire Emblem
Smash Bros

Factor in that they likely have a few more unannounced games for later this year/early next year and you're looking at 25-30 1st/2nd party games in the first 2 years.

Whilst what you say is technically true it is misleading as far as trying to establish Nintendo's productivity, as a big chunk of that list are wii u ports. Even botw spent a large part of its development as a wii u game. To more accurately peg N's output capabilities, we should take the ports out, at which point we're left with a significantly less impressive games per year rate. 

Bringing over these ports was absolutely the right thing to do as they made the best of a bad situation with a solid library that launched on a failing system, but they're going to run out of these ports soon which means to maintain this volume of releases they're going to have to step their game up big time.

They are sitting on a tonne of money from the wii days, which is only getting bigger thanks to switch, so I really hope they invest a good chunk of it on increasing capacity and/or bankrolling projects with 3rd party devs a la Mario + Rabbids! 

Those ports take time and resources from Nintendo, so off course we will count them if we talk about Nintendo 1st/2nd party output and productivity for Switch because thats a fact.



Pemalite said:

 
TheMisterManGuy said:

Understandable, I'm just saying that Labo isn't a failure. In fact, it's far to early to say anything about it really. Christmas should really be its true tests in the market.

Isn't the typical sales trend norm where sales decreases over time rather than increases?

 

Other casual stuff like Brain Age & Nintendogs had low/modest debuts but had strong legs and eventually exploded in popularity.

For example, Brain Age debuted at 45k in Japan and 120k in the first 3 weeks in the US.

Also if i recall, Nintendogs first week sales were 135k in Japan, 250k in US and 160k in Europe.

Both ended up doing over 20 million lifetime.

Im not saying Labo will necessarily do the same but the first few weeks of sales may not mean much in the long run.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

Labo is for children, it will make really better at Christmas.

Paid for online service could be a step before see results from Nintendo's combined development,
Ssb or starfox gp need some Nintendo network, but they are not probably alone in this case.