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Forums - Politics Discussion - Israel 70 years celebration & US opens embassy in Jerusalem, lethal clashes erupt

Cerebralbore101 said:
There's a lot of misconceptions about the whole Israel/Palestine issue. Let's get started...

1. Palestine was never a country of it's own, just a region, that has been passed between different countries for over 2000 years. The word Palestinian doesn't refer to a nationality, anymore than Appalachian, or Floridian refers to a nationality.

2. Israel and Judah were both destroyed by 586 B.C. So the Jewish people have been without a homeland for 2,500 years. (IMO they had no right to claim the area as their own, since there should be a statute of limitations on a people claiming land as their own, because they used to live there.)

3. The Gaza strip is a little strip of land next to Egypt This area of land was controlled by Egypt prior to the Six Day War.

4. The west bank is a batch of land on the eastern side of Israel. Prior to the Six Day War it was controlled by Jordan.

5. The Six Day War was caused by Egypt trying to blockade Israel's sea trade routes. Israel then responded by attacking Egypt, and it's allies. Israel easily won this war in a period of six days, taking the Gaza Strip from Egypt, and the West Bank from Jordan.

6. The U.N. outlawed taking and occupying the land of another nation after WWII. Israel used the Six Day War to take land from Egypt/Jordan. Therefore their occupation of these areas is technically illegal. (Note: I support their taking of these areas. They won the war, and they were provoked into defending themselves.)

7. The British Empire told the Jewish people that they could not move to the Palestine area (this was when the British owned the area as a colony). After WWII they did it anyway, making many Jewish people illegal immigrants.

8. The Palestinians have used terrorism, and revolt in order to try to form their own nation, as well as destroy Israel.

9. The Israelites have been actively trying to displace, marginalize, and replace the Palestinian minority for over 40 years. Their goal is to make Gaza, and the West bank into areas where only Jewish people live.

TL/DR: Nobody has a legitimate claim to this land, and both sides are extremists.

You nailed it.



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Mr Puggsly said:
CartBlanche said:

Just like there are popular views in some western countries that aren't popular in more civilised western countries? No views are universal and everyone on all sides picks and chooses what THEY hypocritically think is right and "modern", for want of a better term.

I get what you're saying, but its generally in the middle where their ideas feel more antiquated. That's because they are and Islam is part of it.

But the reality is different societies move at different paces. History has shown this time and again. Do we now expect ALL societies to move at the same pace morally and technologically?? I don't think that will ever be possible. Eg. While the Incas were building cities , what was Europe like architecturally? While the pyramids were being built, what was 99.9% of the world doing? There are tonnes of other examples. Everyone moves at a different pace and one society leap frogs over another. Don't expect "western" societies to be at the top of the food chain forever. History has shown it is cyclical.



Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

Well than good news for you since that form only exists in the heads of the extremists and the people who are ignorant and hate Islam. The actual Islam is something different

Well... there are popular views in Islamic countries not compatible with the west. This is because of Islam.

Sharia Law is considered pretty rad in some regions.

Again stop confusing Muslim countries with islamic islamic countries. There is a massive difference. There is not one Muslim country based around the scholarly opinion of Islamic law of any sect. Dictators want their own laws and democracies are western laws themselves. No where in the modern world did  actual unbiased scholars gather and come up with a constitution that can be called Sharia law of any sect.   Sharia law is not chopping off hands and stoning and forcing women to wear niqabs and not what Saudi Arabia Iran Pakistan Philippine etc. Pakistan has British law mixed with whatever the hell dictators like Zia uL haq made. You think Zia is a model for a learned Muslim scholar or any of the Sauds? You have to learn Islam.       

Last edited by Eagle367 - on 25 June 2018

Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well... there are popular views in Islamic countries not compatible with the west. This is because of Islam.

Sharia Law is considered pretty rad in some regions.

Again stop confusing Muslim countries with islamic islamic countries. There is a massive difference. There is not one Muslim country based around the scholarly opinion of Islamic law of any sect. Dictators want their own laws and democracies are western laws themselves. No where in the modern world did  actual unbiased scholars gather and come up with a constitution that can be called Sharia law of any sect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

Sharia is state law in most Islamic countries to some extend, in some fully.



numberwang said:
Eagle367 said:

Again stop confusing Muslim countries with islamic islamic countries. There is a massive difference. There is not one Muslim country based around the scholarly opinion of Islamic law of any sect. Dictators want their own laws and democracies are western laws themselves. No where in the modern world did  actual unbiased scholars gather and come up with a constitution that can be called Sharia law of any sect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

Sharia is state law in most Islamic countries to some extend, in some fully.

Remember, it has to be 100% Sharia Law or it has no links to Islam at all.

I certainly do need to learn more about Islam, but fundamentally there is an undeniable link between predominately muslim populations and government inspired by Sharia.



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CartBlanche said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I get what you're saying, but its generally in the middle where their ideas feel more antiquated. That's because they are and Islam is part of it.

But the reality is different societies move at different paces. History has shown this time and again. Do we now expect ALL societies to move at the same pace morally and technologically?? I don't think that will ever be possible. Eg. While the Incas were building cities , what was Europe like architecturally? While the pyramids were being built, what was 99.9% of the world doing? There are tonnes of other examples. Everyone moves at a different pace and one society leap frogs over another. Don't expect "western" societies to be at the top of the food chain forever. History has shown it is cyclical.

European architecture was advanced before the Inca civilization was a thing. Maybe you're thinking Mayan.

The problem in the middle east isn't that they aren't moving in the same pace. They don't just struggle to move forward, there has been regression. I look at religion as a primary problem for that.



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numberwang said:
Eagle367 said:

Again stop confusing Muslim countries with islamic islamic countries. There is a massive difference. There is not one Muslim country based around the scholarly opinion of Islamic law of any sect. Dictators want their own laws and democracies are western laws themselves. No where in the modern world did  actual unbiased scholars gather and come up with a constitution that can be called Sharia law of any sect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

Sharia is state law in most Islamic countries to some extend, in some fully.

It's insane you're quoting Wikipedia here. As far as I know Wikipedia isn't a scholarly islamic website. You have to talk to Islamic scholars about this stuff. Just like you have to confront actual research papers and scientists of the field you want to know about, you have to consult experts of Islamic jurisprudence and their books and see what they say about the laws of Muslim nations. The leaders can bend the laws any way they like and give justifications from fake state scholars. Like Jeff sessions quoted the Bible while separating children. A monster can make anything monstrous. 

Mr Puggsly said:
numberwang said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

Sharia is state law in most Islamic countries to some extend, in some fully.

Remember, it has to be 100% Sharia Law or it has no links to Islam at all.

I certainly do need to learn more about Islam, but fundamentally there is an undeniable link between predominately muslim populations and government inspired by Sharia.

But is it inspired by actual Sharia or more of buzzwords to appease ignorant masses like republicans quoting the Bible? You can twist anything into anything right. Manipulating Islam into your vision for rule is easy to do just like any law like how trump used existing laws to separate babies and kids from their parents. A twisted man can do that.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Eagle367 said:
numberwang said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country

Sharia is state law in most Islamic countries to some extend, in some fully.

It's insane you're quoting Wikipedia here. As far as I know Wikipedia isn't a scholarly islamic website. You have to talk to Islamic scholars about this stuff. Just like you have to confront actual research papers and scientists of the field you want to know about, you have to consult experts of Islamic jurisprudence and their books and see what they say about the laws of Muslim nations. The leaders can bend the laws any way they like and give justifications from fake state scholars. Like Jeff sessions quoted the Bible while separating children. A monster can make anything monstrous. 

Mr Puggsly said:

Remember, it has to be 100% Sharia Law or it has no links to Islam at all.

I certainly do need to learn more about Islam, but fundamentally there is an undeniable link between predominately muslim populations and government inspired by Sharia.

But is it inspired by actual Sharia or more of buzzwords to appease ignorant masses like republicans quoting the Bible? You can twist anything into anything right. Manipulating Islam into your vision for rule is easy to do just like any law like how trump used existing laws to separate babies and kids from their parents. A twisted man can do that.

Uh huh, it would be interesting what the middle east would look like if predominately any other religion. All we know for certain is that religion has helped make that region a mess, whether or not there is a misinterpretation throughout the whole fucking region.

There is generally a correlation between trashing republicans and defending Islam. But if the republicans were pushing Sharia law, maybe you'd like them.



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quickrick said:
Cerebralbore101 said:
There's a lot of misconceptions about the whole Israel/Palestine issue. Let's get started...

1. Palestine was never a country of it's own, just a region, that has been passed between different countries for over 2000 years. The word Palestinian doesn't refer to a nationality, anymore than Appalachian, or Floridian refers to a nationality.

2. Israel and Judah were both destroyed by 586 B.C. So the Jewish people have been without a homeland for 2,500 years. (IMO they had no right to claim the area as their own, since there should be a statute of limitations on a people claiming land as their own, because they used to live there.)

3. The Gaza strip is a little strip of land next to Egypt This area of land was controlled by Egypt prior to the Six Day War.

4. The west bank is a batch of land on the eastern side of Israel. Prior to the Six Day War it was controlled by Jordan.

5. The Six Day War was caused by Egypt trying to blockade Israel's sea trade routes. Israel then responded by attacking Egypt, and it's allies. Israel easily won this war in a period of six days, taking the Gaza Strip from Egypt, and the West Bank from Jordan.

6. The U.N. outlawed taking and occupying the land of another nation after WWII. Israel used the Six Day War to take land from Egypt/Jordan. Therefore their occupation of these areas is technically illegal. (Note: I support their taking of these areas. They won the war, and they were provoked into defending themselves.)

7. The British Empire told the Jewish people that they could not move to the Palestine area (this was when the British owned the area as a colony). After WWII they did it anyway, making many Jewish people illegal immigrants.

8. The Palestinians have used terrorism, and revolt in order to try to form their own nation, as well as destroy Israel.

9. The Israelites have been actively trying to displace, marginalize, and replace the Palestinian minority for over 40 years. Their goal is to make Gaza, and the West bank into areas where only Jewish people live.

TL/DR: Nobody has a legitimate claim to this land, and both sides are extremists.

You nailed it.

This is basically my point of view that I tried to form reading several sources and building my own opinion.

This guy nailed it. 



Mr Puggsly said:
Eagle367 said:

It's insane you're quoting Wikipedia here. As far as I know Wikipedia isn't a scholarly islamic website. You have to talk to Islamic scholars about this stuff. Just like you have to confront actual research papers and scientists of the field you want to know about, you have to consult experts of Islamic jurisprudence and their books and see what they say about the laws of Muslim nations. The leaders can bend the laws any way they like and give justifications from fake state scholars. Like Jeff sessions quoted the Bible while separating children. A monster can make anything monstrous. 

But is it inspired by actual Sharia or more of buzzwords to appease ignorant masses like republicans quoting the Bible? You can twist anything into anything right. Manipulating Islam into your vision for rule is easy to do just like any law like how trump used existing laws to separate babies and kids from their parents. A twisted man can do that.

Uh huh, it would be interesting what the middle east would look like if predominately any other religion. All we know for certain is that religion has helped make that region a mess, whether or not there is a misinterpretation throughout the whole fucking region.

There is generally a correlation between trashing republicans and defending Islam. But if the republicans were pushing Sharia law, maybe you'd like them.

I don't care about republican or democrat, only on the views of the person, what they believe and how informed they are(or at least seem to be to me). You are so ill-informed you don't even know the entire middle East does not follow the same set of laws and follows different interpretations of Fiqh. You should know about Sunnis and shias and even within them ancillary groups but also the new stuff like wahabis which is probably the main trouble causer and to whom most terrorists associate with. Also look at Oman and how they are insolated from many problems of the middle East. This entire orseal can be summed upto(like all conflict) miney, power, land, the ignorance of the masses and foreign intervention. Religion is just the excuse. Just like patriotism and national security for USA to invade other nations, CIA blacksites, Guantanamo bay etc



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also