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How to satiate sexual desires while maintaining respect for women?

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o_O.Q said:
Nautilus said:

You say it applies to both(so all this argument about rape and all is a sin commit by both gender by extent) and yet you go on to focus on men again, as if only we do these 'heinous' things.

I just find this hipocrisy amusing, thats all.

context is important, why do we need feminism? because for centuries women were subjugated and oppressed by men

much of this has been corrected in the present day but there are still many ways in which women are oppressed by society

that's the context this issue is nested in

for pete's sake society still tells women that their main value is derived from their looks when they are young and fertile

 

your thinking is fallacious because its nested in the idea that men and women are treated equally by society and there is no disparity in the degrees to which both groups are oppressed

and come on that's absolutely ridiculous

Hold on, wasnt this discussion about masturbation and porn?Where all this feminist talk came from?I was showing you the hipocrisy in your previous statement.

So I ask you again, if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?



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o_O.Q said:
Shaqazooloo0 said:

You say this as if women don't watch porn too...

Also... pretty sure rape is having sex with someone without their consent. What you seem to be suggesting is, is that casual sex with someone you're not familiar with is rape...

is it impossible for women to objectify women? what kind of argument is that?

 

i said it emulates rape since rape is the objectification of women for sexual gratification... as is porn

Again... pretty sure thats not what rape is, rape can go both ways... also by your definition, if I were to mentally picture a girl naked and then masturbate, that'd be rape...

Also, you say porn is the objectification of women, but what about Femdom? Pegging? CBT? and CFNM? Do those objectify women too?

Last edited by Shaqazooloo0 - on 24 June 2018

Nautilus said:
o_O.Q said:

context is important, why do we need feminism? because for centuries women were subjugated and oppressed by men

much of this has been corrected in the present day but there are still many ways in which women are oppressed by society

that's the context this issue is nested in

for pete's sake society still tells women that their main value is derived from their looks when they are young and fertile

 

your thinking is fallacious because its nested in the idea that men and women are treated equally by society and there is no disparity in the degrees to which both groups are oppressed

and come on that's absolutely ridiculous

Hold on, wasnt this discussion about masturbation and porn?Where all this feminist talk came from?I was showing you the hipocrisy in your previous statement.

So I ask you again, if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?

" if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?"

first off i didn't say they are the same thing but that they are nested in reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification

you understand that both a toyota and a nissan can be different types of cars right?

do you understand abstraction at all?

 

furthermore i already addressed your point about women consuming porn also

"objectification can also be practiced by women... the fact that all 3 of you don't get that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the problem"



Shaqazooloo0 said:
o_O.Q said:

is it impossible for women to objectify women? what kind of argument is that?

 

i said it emulates rape since rape is the objectification of women for sexual gratification... as is porn

Again... pretty sure thats not what rape is, rape can go both ways... also by your definition, if I were to mentally picture a girl naked and then masturbate, that'd be rape...

Also, you say porn is the objectification of women, but what about Femdom? Pegging? CBT? and CFNM? Do those objectify women too?

"pretty sure thats not what rape is, rape can go both ways"

which is irrelevant... as i said we live in a society where 1 in 4 women are raped... the risk does not exist to nearly the same degree as it does for men

are you really trying to make the argument that men face the same level of danger?

 

" also by your definition, if I were to mentally picture a girl naked and then masturbate, that'd be rape..."

no i'm not saying they are the same but that they are both nested in objectification of women for sexual gratification

and yes picturing women naked for the sole purpose of masturbation is also nested in objectification of women for sexual gratification

 

"Also, you say porn is the objectification of women, but what about Femdom? Pegging? CBT? and CFNM? Do those objectify women too?"

are these not very niche categories? making up a very low percentage?



o_O.Q said:
Nautilus said:

Hold on, wasnt this discussion about masturbation and porn?Where all this feminist talk came from?I was showing you the hipocrisy in your previous statement.

So I ask you again, if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?

" if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?"

first off i didn't say they are the same thing but that they are nested in reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification

you understand that both a toyota and a nissan can be different types of cars right?

do you understand abstraction at all?

 

furthermore i already addressed your point about women consuming porn also

"objectification can also be practiced by women... the fact that all 3 of you don't get that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the problem"

But what i dont understand is this:

You think porn watched by men is the same as rape, because that man dosent ask the permission of the woman, or the men they are watching(because you know, tastes), and thus it constitutes a rape of that woman/men he is watching.Fine, I dont agree but I understand what you are saying.But I still dont get why woman cant be categorized the same, given that she would be doing the same thing:She would be watching a video of some men/woman doing sex, thus porn, and masturbating and/or getting horny due to that video.By your own definition, shouldnt that woman be raping that man?Or that other woman, depending on what kind of video she is watching?You gave the car example, but people arent cars, and outside of biological differences, we all are equal, both in rights and responsibilities.So why the previlege to woman?

Unless you mean that men cant rape, because its obviously wrong, but woman can?Because they are woman?



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Nautilus said:
o_O.Q said:

" if watching porn is raping someone, if that applies to men, then it applies to woman right?"

first off i didn't say they are the same thing but that they are nested in reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification

you understand that both a toyota and a nissan can be different types of cars right?

do you understand abstraction at all?

 

furthermore i already addressed your point about women consuming porn also

"objectification can also be practiced by women... the fact that all 3 of you don't get that shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the problem"

But what i dont understand is this:

You think porn watched by men is the same as rape, because that man dosent ask the permission of the woman, or the men they are watching(because you know, tastes), and thus it constitutes a rape of that woman/men he is watching.Fine, I dont agree but I understand what you are saying.But I still dont get why woman cant be categorized the same, given that she would be doing the same thing:She would be watching a video of some men/woman doing sex, thus porn, and masturbating and/or getting horny due to that video.By your own definition, shouldnt that woman be raping that man?Or that other woman, depending on what kind of video she is watching?You gave the car example, but people arent cars, and outside of biological differences, we all are equal, both in rights and responsibilities.So why the previlege to woman?

Unless you mean that men cant rape, because its obviously wrong, but woman can?Because they are woman?

"You think porn watched by men is the same as rape"

uh you keep saying that i'm saying that and i keep clarifying that "first off i didn't say they are the same thing but that they are nested in reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification"

i suppose what is important is whether you think objectifying women is problematic and whether male entitlement to women's bodies is a problem?

if we can't find common ground there then i don't think we'll really get anywhere

 

"I still dont get why woman cant be categorized the same, given that she would be doing the same thing:She would be watching a video of some men/woman doing sex, thus porn"

i also said that women objectify women... but that's irrelevant

this not about assigning blame to one gender or another... its about the very real consequences reducing women down to objects have for real women in real life and that is sexism, sexual assault and obviously rape

as i have outlined there is a connection between objectification and the very real abuse women are forced to suffer in our society and it has to stop

one of the first things we need to do is to ban pornography

 

"You gave the car example, but people arent cars"

i was making a point about the various levels through which objectification is manifested in our society

one level is through porn 

another much deeper level is sexual assault and rape

they are all born out of reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification

with regards to my example cars would be objectification and the different types of cars would be the different manifestations

its not a direct example obviously but i figured it might make things a bit clearer



o_O.Q said:
Nautilus said:

But what i dont understand is this:

You think porn watched by men is the same as rape, because that man dosent ask the permission of the woman, or the men they are watching(because you know, tastes), and thus it constitutes a rape of that woman/men he is watching.Fine, I dont agree but I understand what you are saying.But I still dont get why woman cant be categorized the same, given that she would be doing the same thing:She would be watching a video of some men/woman doing sex, thus porn, and masturbating and/or getting horny due to that video.By your own definition, shouldnt that woman be raping that man?Or that other woman, depending on what kind of video she is watching?You gave the car example, but people arent cars, and outside of biological differences, we all are equal, both in rights and responsibilities.So why the previlege to woman?

Unless you mean that men cant rape, because its obviously wrong, but woman can?Because they are woman?

"You think porn watched by men is the same as rape"

uh you keep saying that i'm saying that and i keep clarifying that "first off i didn't say they are the same thing but that they are nested in reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification"

i suppose what is important is whether you think objectifying women is problematic and whether male entitlement to women's bodies is a problem?

if we can't find common ground there then i don't think we'll really get anywhere

 

"I still dont get why woman cant be categorized the same, given that she would be doing the same thing:She would be watching a video of some men/woman doing sex, thus porn"

i also said that women objectify women... but that's irrelevant

this not about assigning blame to one gender or another... its about the very real consequences reducing women down to objects have for real women in real life and that is sexism, sexual assault and obviously rape

as i have outlined there is a connection between objectification and the very real abuse women are forced to suffer in our society and it has to stop

one of the first things we need to do is to ban pornography

 

"You gave the car example, but people arent cars"

i was making a point about the various levels through which objectification is manifested in our society

one level is through porn 

another much deeper level is sexual assault and rape

they are all born out of reducing women down to objects for sexual gratification

with regards to my example cars would be objectification and the different types of cars would be the different manifestations

its not a direct example obviously but i figured it might make things a bit clearer

About the first part of your post, let me remind of something you wrote:

"it literally parallels and emulates rape since the man does not have to get to know the woman or anything, its all about sexual access at the click of a button"

If thats not saying that watching porn is the same or at very least similar to rape, I dont know what it is.Which is absurd by itself, since rape requires you to force yourself into someone(men or woman) physically, and that wont happen watching porn.You must have realized that, since you have been trying to wiggle out of that statement for awhile now.

And about the second part, this is where I start scratiching my head, and just confirms once again that the world can be fucked up when it wants to be.Let me tell you something:Do you know why most people, men and woman included, dont like feminism?Its because of people like you, or at least ideals like the ones you just wrote.When feminism was born, at its birth it was about making men and woman have similar rights.The same rights in work, the same rights in law.Its ultimate goal being, in conclusion, to make all humans have the rights they should have when they were born, both men and woman.At least, thats how I understand it.

But what you preach is not equality, what you preach is privilege.What you want is to have advantage over others, to be superior to them through perks you want the society to give you, or the group you like.That is evident in the part you say that men should be ashamed of watching porn and that is a crime against woman because it objectifies them, but its irrelevant when a woman is doing it, saying that it is irrelevant for some reason, even if the actions both do are identical.You ignore the "sins" of one side, but condems the ones of the other side.Hell, even if I presented irrefusable proof of some group of woman simply evil and doing unspeakable things, you would only say that its because of centuries of "abuse" that have led them to it, and so they are entitled to do that.This discussion is not about equality or about treating a group the right way, its about having an advantage over others and being loved by the majority.

And let me give you a small life lesson:Everyone objectifies everyone.Men and woman alike.At least when people first meet.I lost count of how many people lost interest in me when they found out I had zero or little sexual interest in them and rather wanted to become friends.If I really had to estimate a number for that, I would say that happens for every 8 people out of 10 I meet.The problem with your ideals, other than the ones I just mentioned, is that it ignores human nature.Not men, but human nature, something that is deeply ingrained inside both men and woman.So as long as you respect that person you are having interactions with and respects their rights, there is no problem.Until you readjust your beliefs, you will never be able to grow up, or you will be stuck forever in your echo chamber of people that think like you.

Last edited by Nautilus - on 24 June 2018

Objectifying someone that wants to be objectified is not problematic, stop telling other women what to do with their body.



Certainly maintaining respect for women with that Avatar. ;)

This thread still makes me feel ikky and cringe ready.



 

Everything in the above reply is my opinion, from my own perspective and not representative of reality outside of my own head!

-Android user, please be gentle with critique on my spelling.

VGPolyglot said:

So, this is a topic that has profoundly troubled me for a while. I do have sexual desires, which I currently relieve through masturbation. However, it's hard to do that through thoughts alone, so I tend to use pornographic material too while doing that. Now, this is where the problem lies. The pornographic industry is not the happiest place at all, far from it in fact. Porn stars have a pretty high suicide rate and lower life-expectancy. This highlights the general unhappiness that porn stars have, and it makes it very hard to consciously watch porn without thinking of the working conditions and relationships, how dehumanizing it must be to have a job like that and the normalization of sex that makes it hard to fully enjoy it.

So, what I tend to do frequently is use fictional media instead, mainly hentai (in the forms of anime and doujinshi), as since they're fictional characters it is impossible for them to be truly hurt/exploited. However, I can understand that for others it's hard to do it, and even for me I tend to shuffle things up in order to be able to stay aroused and avoid desensitization. So, there has to be a happy medium. I myself try very hard to not have pornography affect my views and treatment of women, and I hope that I have maintained that. But I was also curious on your guys' thoughts and perspectives on the matter.

Bold: Why not just watch amateur (the real kind) porn instead? It's better than "fake" porn anyway.