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God of War shows why I consider SSM better than ND and you might as well

Forums - Sony Discussion - God of War shows why I consider SSM better than ND and you might as well

Do you agree?

Yes 12 25.00%
 
No 13 27.08%
 
They are both as good as the other 22 45.83%
 
Haven't played God of War 1 2.08%
 
Haven't played Uncharted 0 0.00%
 
Total:48
danasider said:
"This is an opinion piece. Feel free to disagree."

Almost every following post flames OP despite the first 2 sentences. Why are people so touchy? Can't people have opinions?

The post was initially taken down, and then heavily edited and revised before being put back up. The first few comments were in response to the pre-revision phrasing.



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DonFerrari said:
GOWTLOZ said:

1. You don't have to play GOW games on the hardest difficulty to get platinum. You have to do that in Uncharted games to get platinum.

2. Stop being stuck up comparing the difficulties of the 2 series. I didn't say God of War is tougher. Its got more mechanical depth to its combat. Know the difference.

But if so insist on talking of the difficulty, any game could be made tough by cranking up enemy health and damage to 11. God of War in normal and easy mode you can tank tons of hits but on hard mode you can tank relatively fewer hits and very hard you can only tank a few hits, like it is in other games. God of War enemies are the opposite of damage sponges on lower difficulty and just the right amounty of hits on the higher difficulties.

Uncharted the enemies take fair amount of hits on the lower difficulties but on saay Crushing difficulty they can tank a ton of damage and that is the cheap style of difficulty. I'll give it to Naughty Dog that Uncharted does have better AI that will flank you whenever they can and take you out of cover but taking so many shots to kill is not a good way to make it difficult.

3. God of War is no fighting game, where did I say that? I said God of War 3's combat is nearly as deep as Devil May Cry 3's combat because of the endless combos and juggles you can do showing the high skill ceiling of the game. Watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjTG5LpaG3o&t=97s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoHu8FTyxk&t=197s

Its so amazing one of the devs was surprised to see that such combos could be done in the game. That's real depth.

1 - Well, I did play they all on the highest diffult available

2 - Depth isn't measure by the amount of movement options. Chess, Go even Checkers have very simple and limited movement options and they still can be very depth in its playing.

You may not like their choices to make the game harder, but it still is harder than GoW. And go for TLOU on grounded difficult that you are basically scrapping for single bullets and have to try to pass almost all stages without firing and also have disabled hearing plus enhanced discovery by the enemies. So there is several different changes to the ultimate difficult.

3 - Combos in GoW are very easy to do and playing it regularly it's also easy to memorize and know which enemies to use each. As I said having limited options can make it more deep than having 100 options that if you know wich of them to use at the time make it even easier and perhaps shallow.

1. You said you played on hard. There is a very hard mode. Were you saying highest available initial setting?

2. Mechanical depth in a game is measured by the mechanics. Uncharted has shallow and straightforward mechanics without any variance. God of War games have a deeper pool of combos hence have greater depth. You can't compare it to a sport.

3. Doing each combo by itself is easy. Chaining all those combos like in the video is incredibly difficult and takes phenomenal skill. I told you, the game developers themselves were amazed it was possible.

You might not have watched the videos. You should. It not only gets my point across but is entertaining as well.

CGI-Quality said:
AngryLittleAlchemist said:

Do you think Santa Monica would be up there without God of War 4?

For me, they were long before it. 

Yes!

MTZehvor said:
GOWTLOZ said: 

3. God of War is no fighting game, where did I say that? I said God of War 3's combat is nearly as deep as Devil May Cry 3's combat because of the endless combos and juggles you can do showing the high skill ceiling of the game. Watch it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjTG5LpaG3o&t=97s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BoHu8FTyxk&t=197s

Its so amazing one of the devs was surprised to see that such combos could be done in the game. That's real depth.

I'm not super invested in this debate as a whole, but I do feel the need to chime in on this. Having played both titles fairly extensively back in the day, GoW3's combat has nowhere near as much depth as DMC3. It's important to note that there's a significant difference between simply having a truckload of moves that you can look cool with and having a significant degree of depth to your combat system, and while GoW3 (and the entire first GoW trilogy) has the former, it pales in comparison to DMC3 on the latter.

Combos in GoW3 that basically infinitely stunlock most enemies are incredibly easy to perform even on Chaos, and while you can go out of your way to look impressive by switching weapons on the fly and throwing in different attacks, there's no real gameplay incentive to do so; you won't be doing more damage and the game doesn't really have any other method to encourage moveset exploration beyond that. As long as you're familiar enough with enemy attack patterns to know when to drop your current combo and get out of the way of an incoming attack, you have the knowledge you need to beat the game, even on Chaos.

DMC3, on the other hand, has a much greater degree of depth because it has, at the risk of sound pretentious, let's call them "high level techniques," that are almost essential for the player to familiarize themselves with if they want to make it through the higher difficulties (Very Hard/DMD) without having to spam healing items. If you're not, at the very least, familiar with using different styles, jump canceling, and DTEs, you're going to have an extremely difficult time getting past even the first third of the game. There are advanced strategies that the player essentially needs to learn if they want to survive higher difficulties. On top of that, the game's inclusion of a style meter, influenced by the variety of attacks a player uses, not only provides a constant incentive to use different weapons, but also factors into how much in game currency you earn at the end of a level, adding an additional incentive on top of that.

Devil May Cry 3 handles its gameplay depth better than God of War 3 because of the things you stated. Doesn't make it lots deeper. Its just that Devil May cry 3 has better AI and enemy waves and the style meter is amazing incentive to mix it up. Still God of War allows nearly the same skill ceiling just doesn't require you to be that good to beat the game.

I would say it does require lots of skills to do the Challenge of the Gods in God of War 3. In the campaign, Chaos mode requires you to be really good but not to the extent that Dante Must Die in Devil May Cry 3 does. Still the option is there for those who need that depth. Watch the videos I linked there. The developers didn't know such combos were possible and that shows the amazing depth it has.



GOWTLOZ said:

MTZehvor said:

I'm not super invested in this debate as a whole, but I do feel the need to chime in on this. Having played both titles fairly extensively back in the day, GoW3's combat has nowhere near as much depth as DMC3. It's important to note that there's a significant difference between simply having a truckload of moves that you can look cool with and having a significant degree of depth to your combat system, and while GoW3 (and the entire first GoW trilogy) has the former, it pales in comparison to DMC3 on the latter.

Combos in GoW3 that basically infinitely stunlock most enemies are incredibly easy to perform even on Chaos, and while you can go out of your way to look impressive by switching weapons on the fly and throwing in different attacks, there's no real gameplay incentive to do so; you won't be doing more damage and the game doesn't really have any other method to encourage moveset exploration beyond that. As long as you're familiar enough with enemy attack patterns to know when to drop your current combo and get out of the way of an incoming attack, you have the knowledge you need to beat the game, even on Chaos.

DMC3, on the other hand, has a much greater degree of depth because it has, at the risk of sound pretentious, let's call them "high level techniques," that are almost essential for the player to familiarize themselves with if they want to make it through the higher difficulties (Very Hard/DMD) without having to spam healing items. If you're not, at the very least, familiar with using different styles, jump canceling, and DTEs, you're going to have an extremely difficult time getting past even the first third of the game. There are advanced strategies that the player essentially needs to learn if they want to survive higher difficulties. On top of that, the game's inclusion of a style meter, influenced by the variety of attacks a player uses, not only provides a constant incentive to use different weapons, but also factors into how much in game currency you earn at the end of a level, adding an additional incentive on top of that.

Devil May Cry 3 handles its gameplay depth better than God of War 3 because of the things you stated. Doesn't make it lots deeper. Its just that Devil May cry 3 has better AI and enemy waves and the style meter is amazing incentive to mix it up. Still God of War allows nearly the same skill ceiling just doesn't require you to be that good to beat the game.

I would say it does require lots of skills to do the Challenge of the Gods in God of War 3. In the campaign, Chaos mode requires you to be really good but not to the extent that Dante Must Die in Devil May Cry 3 does. Still the option is there for those who need that depth. Watch the videos I linked there. The developers didn't know such combos were possible and that shows the amazing depth it has.

I'd argue that's exactly what depth is. Perhaps this dissolves into a debate on semantics of what words are, but to me, depth in an action game means that not only does the game have complex mechanics, but the game also requires a high level of skill to properly use implement them in battle. And that, in turn, requires at least a high enough degree of enemy AI competency to make certain situations ones where it would be proper to implement those mechanics. The issue with GoW 3's depth, imo, is that there are no real situations, at least in the campaigns of 1-3, where it's ever proper to implement extended, flashier combos with weapon switching because there's no point where it's more effective than simply using basic combos with the Blades of Exile (or whatever weapon you've put the most upgrades into). I would argue that a game has to provide situations where the player is forced to think intelligently about what they're using and how in order to really have depth.

I think another viable comparison is fighting games, which share a lot of similarities with action titles. Games like Marvel vs. Capcom 2, for instance, have a lot more possible moves and combo variety than, say, Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Yet I don't believe you would find many people who claim that Marvel 2 has more depth than comparable games of the latter series; in fact, people usually argue the other way around. Why? Because having a sizable number of moves doesn't mean a game has depth. That can certainly be part of it, but it isn't a guarantee, or even the main factor. Despite the sheer size of Marvel's movesets, there are usually only two or three combos that high level players consistently rely on; basically any situation where you land a hit will prompt the player to use the combo that will deal the most damage (if they think they can kill) or deal the most damage/place the opponent in a positional disadvantage (if they can't kill). At the end of the day, those are the only two optimal strategies encouraged by the game.

And it's the same deal when it comes to GoW 3, there's no real incentive provided by the game to do anything beyond just sticking to whatever weapon you've got the most upgrade points in. If you're switching weapons, you're almost assuredly doing it for coolness' sake. Which isn't a bad motivation, but it means that the combat isn't particularly deep. It also doesn't help that 3 of the 4 obtainable weapons function very similarly, thus negating a lot of potential depth that could have existed had there been a bit more variety. Contrasting this with DMC3, where not only do all the weapons function very differently, but the game's superior AI and enemy design means that you are required to think about how you're going to approach different situations and choose different strategies based on what you're fighting. That, to me, is depth.

I did watch the combos, just to check if people had discovered a much greater degree of technical skill than when I last checked, and, no, they haven't. I think that speaks more to the devs thinking their combat was more limited than it is; which isn't a bad thing, many times devs find out that something they didn't intend to be in the game is in the game and it actually improves things a lot (Super Metroid, imo, is one of the greatest games ever in no small part to many of the sequence breaking abilities Samus has that the devs didn't intentionally put in the game).



greenFizz said:
Wow! Microsoft is losing so bad this generation that Sony fans are forced to cannibalize each other.

We have to discuss greatness from wherever greatness is.

danasider said:
"This is an opinion piece. Feel free to disagree."

Almost every following post flames OP despite the first 2 sentences. Why are people so touchy? Can't people have opinions?

You didn't see the original post and how he have been responding as well.

GOWTLOZ said:
DonFerrari said:

1 - Well, I did play they all on the highest diffult available

2 - Depth isn't measure by the amount of movement options. Chess, Go even Checkers have very simple and limited movement options and they still can be very depth in its playing.

You may not like their choices to make the game harder, but it still is harder than GoW. And go for TLOU on grounded difficult that you are basically scrapping for single bullets and have to try to pass almost all stages without firing and also have disabled hearing plus enhanced discovery by the enemies. So there is several different changes to the ultimate difficult.

3 - Combos in GoW are very easy to do and playing it regularly it's also easy to memorize and know which enemies to use each. As I said having limited options can make it more deep than having 100 options that if you know wich of them to use at the time make it even easier and perhaps shallow.

1. You said you played on hard. There is a very hard mode. Were you saying highest available initial setting?

2. Mechanical depth in a game is measured by the mechanics. Uncharted has shallow and straightforward mechanics without any variance. God of War games have a deeper pool of combos hence have greater depth. You can't compare it to a sport.

3. Doing each combo by itself is easy. Chaining all those combos like in the video is incredibly difficult and takes phenomenal skill. I told you, the game developers themselves were amazed it was possible.

You might not have watched the videos. You should. It not only gets my point across but is entertaining as well.

CGI-Quality said:

For me, they were long before it. 

Yes!

MTZehvor said:

I'm not super invested in this debate as a whole, but I do feel the need to chime in on this. Having played both titles fairly extensively back in the day, GoW3's combat has nowhere near as much depth as DMC3. It's important to note that there's a significant difference between simply having a truckload of moves that you can look cool with and having a significant degree of depth to your combat system, and while GoW3 (and the entire first GoW trilogy) has the former, it pales in comparison to DMC3 on the latter.

Combos in GoW3 that basically infinitely stunlock most enemies are incredibly easy to perform even on Chaos, and while you can go out of your way to look impressive by switching weapons on the fly and throwing in different attacks, there's no real gameplay incentive to do so; you won't be doing more damage and the game doesn't really have any other method to encourage moveset exploration beyond that. As long as you're familiar enough with enemy attack patterns to know when to drop your current combo and get out of the way of an incoming attack, you have the knowledge you need to beat the game, even on Chaos.

DMC3, on the other hand, has a much greater degree of depth because it has, at the risk of sound pretentious, let's call them "high level techniques," that are almost essential for the player to familiarize themselves with if they want to make it through the higher difficulties (Very Hard/DMD) without having to spam healing items. If you're not, at the very least, familiar with using different styles, jump canceling, and DTEs, you're going to have an extremely difficult time getting past even the first third of the game. There are advanced strategies that the player essentially needs to learn if they want to survive higher difficulties. On top of that, the game's inclusion of a style meter, influenced by the variety of attacks a player uses, not only provides a constant incentive to use different weapons, but also factors into how much in game currency you earn at the end of a level, adding an additional incentive on top of that.

Devil May Cry 3 handles its gameplay depth better than God of War 3 because of the things you stated. Doesn't make it lots deeper. Its just that Devil May cry 3 has better AI and enemy waves and the style meter is amazing incentive to mix it up. Still God of War allows nearly the same skill ceiling just doesn't require you to be that good to beat the game.

I would say it does require lots of skills to do the Challenge of the Gods in God of War 3. In the campaign, Chaos mode requires you to be really good but not to the extent that Dante Must Die in Devil May Cry 3 does. Still the option is there for those who need that depth. Watch the videos I linked there. The developers didn't know such combos were possible and that shows the amazing depth it has.

1. I played all that was available on the options of PS3 and PS4 (including if I'm not wrong Spartan as the hardest one).

2. You will keep confusing size and variety of combos to depth, it isn't, but no point in keep discussing it.

3. Being able to do above and beyond what is intended doesn't really address your point. I can start to slide on a slope, jump in the middle and do a headshot using a shotgun on UC. Does that put depth on the game or just show I can push the boundaries of the game logic?



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