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Forums - General Discussion - Dr. Shawn Baker challenges vegan jihadis, eats only meat for 15 months. Think he's unhealthy? Here's what happened...

Aeolus451 said:
Jumpin said:

Why are vegans idiots? Their existence, and success at being healthier than non-vegans, proves meat is not required. We are capable of eating meat, but it is terribly unhealthy to eat a lot of it. Similarly, we are capable of eating refined sugar, but similarly, it’s terribly unhealthy to eat a lot of it.

Because they are following a diet that is unhealthy and unnatural. Vegans need supplements to be even close to healthy because they don't eat everything the human body requires. It's becoming common that long term vegans are having to quit it because of the effects of long term deficiency on their bodies. They're the flat earthers of dieting.

There are hundreds of millions of vegans around the world that don't have to quit, though. About a third of my office is vegan, and to be quite frank, it's very clear who the healthier people are.

Also, requiring supplements is not unique to the vegan diet. About 50% of the American population uses supplements to help with their nutritional deficiencies. Plus, if you drink dairy, in the US it's generally fortified with supplements; same with factory farmed meat which comes from animals that are fed various hormones and vitamin supplements.

Another Rogan guest, this one more intelligent talks about common vitamin deficiencies:

Here's some statistics on Americans who use vitamin pills: http://news.gallup.com/poll/166541/half-americans-vitamins-regularly.aspx

Although, not all vegans require supplements; the major vitamin uncommon in western plant-foods is B12, which occurs because of sanitization and cooking; which tends to wash it off. B12 is produced by bacteria, and the reason free-range and wild animals (like fish) and third world people have it is because they don't sanitize their food the way we do in modern western culture.

Using the "not natural" argument also doesn't fly because the only people in the western world that eat anything close to natural diet are those who live on a raw whole-food diet.



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Mandalore76 said:
palou said:

...which ones

 

In general, the composition of plants is a lot more diverse than that of meat. Further off from what you need, individually, but you have all the spikes you need to balance it out, if you do the math. 

 

The "best" diet is one thats varied/balanced, I think.

 

If you're not measuring it, this is probably true.

Vitamin B12 has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread.   It's pretty important too.  A Vitamin B12 deficiency has detrimental effects on the body.  Here's 6 more by the way:

7 Nutrients That You Can't Get From Plant Foods
  • Vitamin B12. 
  • Creatine. 
  • Carnosine. 
  • Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3) .
  • Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) .
  • Heme-iron.
  • Taurine.

  

Only B12 on that list is an essential dietary nutrient; your body can synthesize what it needs from other food sources. B12 is also NOT produced by animals, it is produced by bacteria - animals get from the vegetation they ingest, or supplements (in the case of factory farms)

And Vitamin D3 is supplemented in dairy, so that doesn't really count. The majority of people (70% of Americans) are vitamin D deficient; it's largely due to low sun exposure... Basically, if you live in a place like Germany, you NEED vitamin D supplements, regardless of your diet because we only see the sun about 25 times a year =P



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

I and my family have been vegetarians (milk and eggs) for more than fifteen years and vegans for over seven years.
We are vegans for several reasons:
Health - many health problems can be directly linked to meat.
Food industry complex - hormones, medicines, antibiotics as well as stress induced chemical reactions in the animals are substances that we get when eating meat.
Environmental - meat is not a very energy effective way to produce the nutrients that we need.
Moral - as an intelligent being why would I want to eat other intelligent beings when there is a very good alternative in eating plants.

None of us have fainted or have become sick because of our diet. We are an ordinary family with ordinary jobs. We do not eat any supplements.

Last edited by baloofarsan - on 18 April 2018

Mandalore76 said:
palou said:

...which ones

 

In general, the composition of plants is a lot more diverse than that of meat. Further off from what you need, individually, but you have all the spikes you need to balance it out, if you do the math. 

 

The "best" diet is one thats varied/balanced, I think.

 

If you're not measuring it, this is probably true.

Vitamin B12 has already been mentioned multiple times in this thread.   It's pretty important too.  A Vitamin B12 deficiency has detrimental effects on the body.  Here's 6 more by the way:

7 Nutrients That You Can't Get From Plant Foods
  • Vitamin B12. 
  • Creatine. 
  • Carnosine. 
  • Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3) .
  • Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) .
  • Heme-iron.
  • Taurine.

  

let's check-

 

Taurine, heme, creatine, carnosine, D3 are all biosynthesized by humans without any issues. DHA as well, but in smaller quantities - it requires a bit of a more careful planning to get the proper dose, (algae do have it), so I can see that being somewhat annoying. The adverse effects of a deficiency aren't major, though.

B12 is more iffy, but is already being added as a standard supplement in many common foods (milk...) so it wouldn't exactly be a big step for vegans to do the same. Again, there's algae that have quite a bit of it.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

Mandalore76 said:
palou said:

... What concerns the bolded, here - that isn't how evolution works. There, in fact, exists no such thing as "devolution". We stay with whatever form is most optimal. Saying that eating less meat makes it more optimal to have smaller brains really doesn't have any sort of basis. (In the past, it could - since hunting required intelligence. The same can't be said about choosing ground pork on the supermarket aisle.) That is also not how regressive genes work. They don't activate on a diet, they activate if there is no dominant gene, (ususally only happens when inbreeding).

Again, omnivorous doesn't mean that we need a diverse diet. The whole point of being omnivorous, and what has allowed us to prosper so long, all over the globe, is that just about anything will do. As said, most ancient cultures had 90% of the population living almost exclusively off of the most available starch source. That definitely isn't healthy, and there are a number of specific *deficiencies* that were caused from it (scurvy, the most notable), but it still worked out, otherwise - because the human body is extremely adaptable, as said. These people were physical labourers, by the way - if anything, more so than anyone doing the same today. Deficiencies have been studied for a long, long time. You definitely don't slowly starve yourself to death from a vegan diet.

I'll agree that Veganism is more of a hassle than many people are willing to engage in, and does require you to do some linear algebra on your nutritional intake. Vegetarianism, on the other hand, does not have such a restriction, and is generally considered perfectly healthy, without supplements. 

I've actually already debated someone on here that there aren't any inherent medical advantages to veganism, either, haha, so it's fun to defend the other side, for now. The point remains that there ISN'T anything, at all, in meat, that you can't find in higher concentration in some fairly common plant-based food - be it amino-acids, fatty acids, sugars, or any micronutrient of your choice. It requires some linear algebra to get the proportions right, because each *single* plant is further off from what you'd need, but there is absolutely no scientific reason for which a planned diet should in any shape or form have worse results on your health than taking it from meat. Because, again, in the sum, a diet can be planned to have entirely identical nutritional content, after digestion, if the calculations were done correctly.

Anyways, interesting topic. I'm not vegan/vegetarian, btw, haha!

7 Supplements You Need on a Vegan Diet

1. Vitamin B12

2. Vitamin D

3. Long-Chain Omega-3s

4. Iodine

5. Iron

6. Calcium

7. Zinc


  

...notice that the bolded part your are referring to specifically distinguishes between vegetarian and vegan.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

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palou said:
Mandalore76 said:

7 Supplements You Need on a Vegan Diet

1. Vitamin B12

2. Vitamin D

3. Long-Chain Omega-3s

4. Iodine

5. Iron

6. Calcium

7. Zinc


   

...notice that the bolded part your are referring to specifically distinguishes between vegetarian and vegan.

Ignore the bolding.  I copy pasted everything from the same site.  I don't know why the header unbolded, and then Iron came out much larger than the rest.



Mandalore76 said:
palou said:

...notice that the bolded part your are referring to specifically distinguishes between vegetarian and vegan.

Ignore the bolding.  I copy pasted everything from the same site.  I don't know why the header unbolded, and then Iron came out much larger than the rest.

I meant what you bolded, in my post. Those deficiencies don't appear within a fairly normal vegetarian diet, as opposed to a vegan diet, which requires some planning.



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

palou said:
Mandalore76 said:

Ignore the bolding.  I copy pasted everything from the same site.  I don't know why the header unbolded, and then Iron came out much larger than the rest.

I meant what you bolded, in my post. Those deficiencies don't appear within a fairly normal vegetarian diet, as opposed to a vegan diet, which requires some planning.

Ah, got it



Bristow9091 said:
Ka-pi96 said:

Because that's greedy! Leave some for the rest of us!

I'll tell you what; because I'm nice, I'll let you have ALL the cabbage, sprouts, mushrooms, broccoli and cauliflower... I'll even give you a little bit of cheese to dip them in, but not all of it because I love my cheese too much to give it ALL up, lol :P 

Aren't you a reasonable and sharing person? =]



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Bristow9091 said:
DonFerrari said:

Aren't you a reasonable and sharing person? =]

inorite! I'm even giving him healthy food too because I care about his health, if he's good enough I might even slide him a bit of beef every now and then since it's my least favourite meat! :P 

We don't want him starving from a vegan diet =p



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."