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Forums - Sony Discussion - The PS4 really should have backwards compatibility!

John2290 said:
No. More reasons to go on time wasting nostalgia trips down gamery lane that lead nowhere but disappointment or take a chance on a widely popular series you never tried only to find it has aged like dog shite all the while new games pile up. Fuck that, there is enough new games, we don't need to replay old games. I really like this new console full reset, keeps me from doing dumb shit like that and I'm sure Sony realize this too, better to have people playing new games than old games. Just gotta remember to keep your PS4 next time when buying the PS5 and you're golden.

Lol, that's a nice lil tangent and all, but that's not why Sony did it. It's was 100% for the $$$.



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Yeah they should "AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS GENERATION ". But now , it's not a problem anymore, because people busy playing new games.



Kyuu said:

I'm not a tech expert but the structural difference between PS3 and PS4 appears to be greater than between X360 and Xbox 1.

They all use completely different ISA's.
Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 are PowerPC based which are different than x86.
The Xbox 360's GPU however is more custom than it's PC counterparts, where as the Playstation 3's GPU was essentially an off-the-shelf Geforce 7.

So "not exactly" is the answer I can give you there.

Kyuu said:

Sony doesn't need to copy that (assuming they're even capable) since their priorities lie else where like they should. It's understandable that they don't want to waste time, effort, and resources into what amounts to very little, whereas it's inexcusable in the case of BC with PS1 and PS2 because PS4 can emulate those without any extra costs apart from one trusty emulation software that automatically takes care of 99% games. That is unless licensing is a bigger obstacle than I imagine it is.

Well. Sony can afford to put a team together that is dedicated to the task that will not take time/attention/resources away from other projects.
Excuses aren't solutions.


Kyuu said:

Hopefully a well designed PS5 will be "properly" backwards compatible with PS4, maybe even PS1-3 thanks to it having enough power to truly emulate PS3 without any time wasting game-specific coding/programing.

Power isn't the issue.
Playstation 3 emulators on the PC not only run better, but perform better than the Xbox 360 emulators.

There are ways to engineer around various issues which I highlighted prior.

Kyuu said:

Pseudo-emulating PS3 just isn't worth it imo.

Disagree. Emulation is always worth it.



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doesn't effect me, since I don't play last gen games. I do expect PS5 to have PS4 compatibility.



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Pemalite said:
Kyuu said:

I'm not a tech expert but the structural difference between PS3 and PS4 appears to be greater than between X360 and Xbox 1.

They all use completely different ISA's.
Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 are PowerPC based which are different than x86.
The Xbox 360's GPU however is more custom than it's PC counterparts, where as the Playstation 3's GPU was essentially an off-the-shelf Geforce 7.

So "not exactly" is the answer I can give you there.

Kyuu said:

Sony doesn't need to copy that (assuming they're even capable) since their priorities lie else where like they should. It's understandable that they don't want to waste time, effort, and resources into what amounts to very little, whereas it's inexcusable in the case of BC with PS1 and PS2 because PS4 can emulate those without any extra costs apart from one trusty emulation software that automatically takes care of 99% games. That is unless licensing is a bigger obstacle than I imagine it is.

Well. Sony can afford to put a team together that is dedicated to the task that will not take time/attention/resources away from other projects.
Excuses aren't solutions.


Kyuu said:

Hopefully a well designed PS5 will be "properly" backwards compatible with PS4, maybe even PS1-3 thanks to it having enough power to truly emulate PS3 without any time wasting game-specific coding/programing.

Power isn't the issue.
Playstation 3 emulators on the PC not only run better, but perform better than the Xbox 360 emulators.

There are ways to engineer around various issues which I highlighted prior.

Kyuu said:

Pseudo-emulating PS3 just isn't worth it imo.

Disagree. Emulation is always worth it.

aah dude u are off on so many levels.. but i have to say one thing as a person who has worked on PS3 games and PS4, I would tell you this just running an emulator on PS4 isnt going to make PS3 game work, the amount restructuring of codes required to move from SPU onto CU's is huge, with that much effort remastering a game sounds feasible, and the emulation is more difficult coz besides new architecture sony also had to over haul their framework and PSlib. Of course emulation will work on games that relied heavly on RSX, but there weren't many and those are the games i dont think anyone wanna play.

Also speaking about Xbox BC one of the reason MS was able to achieve backward compatibility is the their strong OS and virtualization framework under the hood which is more in line with their 360 (DXlib), and the base for Xbox one BC was that late in the 360 life cycle MS had introduced a feature of installing the full games on to the internal drive and play it with just a disc verification, so MS built upon that and are recompiling each games so that Xbox 360 emulator can handle them with each firmware update.. Its this recompiling part which is damn difficult with SPU codes. 



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Why would you buy a new console to play old games? Use your old console for that if you must. Personally, I play all the interesting games on a given console during its lifecycle and then I move on and never look back. I guess if you like a whole lot of games each generation, that might not be so simple to pull off, but I find that as I get older, I also get more picky with my games.
Playstation will be BC going forward from the PS4, assuming that they stick with the x86 stuff in the future, as they should.



taus90 said:

aah dude u are off on so many levels.. but i have to say one thing as a person who has worked on PS3 games and PS4, I would tell you this just running an emulator on PS4 isnt going to make PS3 game work, the amount restructuring of codes required to move from SPU onto CU's is huge, with that much effort remastering a game sounds feasible, and the emulation is more difficult coz besides new architecture sony also had to over haul their framework and PSlib.

I think you are missing the entire point.
You don't need to emulate everything, not in the same sense as an Emulator running on the PC because those emulators do not have innate knowledge of the hardware and software ecosystems.
Microsoft's approach has to indeed work.

There are technologies like binary translation, virtualization, abstraction, repackaging and so on that can be employed.
The Cell isn't some super computing chip you know.

FYI. Your qualifications do not supersede my own, nor do I have the capability to verify your claims thus making that statement entirely redundant.

taus90 said:

Of course emulation will work on games that relied heavly on RSX, but there weren't many and those are the games i dont think anyone wanna play.

Majority of PS3 games heavily used the RSX.
Whether they heavily used the Cell is another matter entirely.

taus90 said:

Also speaking about Xbox BC one of the reason MS was able to achieve backward compatibility is the their strong OS and virtualization framework under the hood which is more in line with their 360 (DXlib), and the base for Xbox one BC was that late in the 360 life cycle MS had introduced a feature of installing the full games on to the internal drive and play it with just a disc verification, so MS built upon that and are recompiling each games so that Xbox 360 emulator can handle them with each firmware update..

You pretty much just reworded everything I have said prior.

taus90 said:

Its this recompiling part which is damn difficult with SPU codes.

You don't need to recompile.

 



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PS3 Cell was very complicated so BC on PS4 was nearly imposible, but I dont see why Sony at least dont offer PS1 and better offer of PS2 games digitaly.

Saying that, there are good chanches that PS5 will have PS4 BC.



The PS3's "Cell" architecture is propietary, the PS4's X86 architecture is not. That is why you can't have backwards compatibility. I have now enlightened this thread and the ignorance has illuminated into knowledge.

Moderators can now close this thread. Have a good day.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

How much does backwards compatibility matter?  Well lets look at the performance of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft consoles.  Some of them had BC and some didn't.  Below I've ranked each console based on hardware sales and market share on a 1-10 scale.  Obviously I left off consoles that were firsts in their line (NES, PS1, etc...) and I left off Switch because it's so recent.  Here are the results:

Console Sales Performance (1-10) BC? Console Sales Performance (1-10) BC?
SNES 7 N Wii 8 Y
N64 4 N Wii U 1 Y
GCN 2 N GBA 8 Y
Virtual Boy 1 N DS 10 Y
PS3 5 N 3DS 7 Y
PS4 9 N PS2 10 Y
PS Vita 1 N XB360 5 Y
      XB1 3 Y
Average 4.1 Average 6.5  


There certainly is a strong correlation between BC and market success.  It doesn't guarantee market success, but it sure doesn't hurt either.

BC certainly isn't helping X1. And it certainly didn't help WiiU. And I don't know anyone bout any of those consoles off the basis of BC. Inversely no one didn't buy them because they're not BC. I can't imagine someone saying "I don't want an X1 because I can't play my old X360 games on it." That makes absolutely no sense. Also, we're 5 years into the PS4's life cycle and we're still arguing the fact that it doesn't play games that are probably a decade old.

Look, there are always plenty of new games out there to play. Yes it's nice to have BC but it's not a deal breaker to not have it. When I had a 360, a Wii, and a WiiU I never thought once about playing an XBOX, GameCube, or Wii game. I'm sure that's not "just me". The BC/sales correlation is purely coincidental. As a matter a fact, the BC consoles all released at a time when video games had become extremely more popular and had broader appeal. That's why those consoles so more than the non-BC consoles.



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