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Forums - Sony Discussion - The PS4 really should have backwards compatibility!

Eric2048 said:

Even the most powerful PC's have trouble emulating PS3 games there's no way PS4 could. but BC for PS1 and PS2 titles should be a thing.

PCs also have trouble emulating OG Xbox games, so I don't think that's all there is to it.



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DonFerrari said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Hey, you're right.  BC doesn't guarantee success.  Not having BC doesn't mean automatic failure.  But look at the overall trend, and BC is strongly correlated with success.

The only strong correlation is in your mind, using only an average of an arbitrary number.

Easier way to see it... X360 didn't had BC, launch PS3 had... PS3 removed BC and reduced cost, selling more, didn't affect much X360... PS4 and X1 didn't had BC, X1 got it, sales didn't really change... so BC is unconsequential.

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
DonFerrari said:

The only strong correlation is in your mind, using only an average of an arbitrary number.

Easier way to see it... X360 didn't had BC, launch PS3 had... PS3 removed BC and reduced cost, selling more, didn't affect much X360... PS4 and X1 didn't had BC, X1 got it, sales didn't really change... so BC is unconsequential.

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

As much as I love BC in consoles... it doesn't seem to be a deciding factor for most people, especially nowadays (PS4 & Switch & Wii U).

If you include GBA as a winner (although it had no dedicated handhelds as competition), Switch should be included, too.

So it is more like:

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4, Switch
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

Losers that chose to forego BC: Saturn, DreamCast, GameCube
Losers that chose to include BC: PS Vita, Wii U



VGPolyglot said:
Eric2048 said:

Even the most powerful PC's have trouble emulating PS3 games there's no way PS4 could. but BC for PS1 and PS2 titles should be a thing.

PCs also have trouble emulating OG Xbox games, so I don't think that's all there is to it.

He has a point though....

from what I understand RPCS3 (PS3 emulator) with a 7700k @4.8ghz run something like Red Dead Redemption at 15 fps.
(it has performance issues in games)

Meanwhile:
Xenia (XB360 emulator) runs pretty well full speed in most games, its just buggy as all hell (so very few games are playable without tons of glitches)

The PS3 is vastly more demanding to emulate than the XB360, due to the damned Cell Proccessor.



JRPGfan said:
VGPolyglot said:

PCs also have trouble emulating OG Xbox games, so I don't think that's all there is to it.

He has a point though....

from what I understand RPCS3 (PS3 emulator) with a 7700k @4.8ghz run something like Red Dead Redemption at 15 fps.
(it has performance issues in games)

Meanwhile:
Xenia (XB360 emulator) runs pretty well full speed in most games, its just buggy as all hell (so very few games are playable without tons of glitches)

The PS3 is vastly more demanding to emulate than the XB360, due to the damned Cell Proccessor.

I was talking about the OG XB, not even the 360.



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The PS5 better have backwards compatibility!



TranceformerFX said:
The PS3's "Cell" architecture is propietary, the PS4's X86 architecture is not. That is why you can't have backwards compatibility. I have now enlightened this thread and the ignorance has illuminated into knowledge.

Moderators can now close this thread. Have a good day.

The Xbox 360's CPU is propriety.
The Xbox One's x86 CPU is not.

And Microsoft achieved backwards compatibility.

taus90 said:

So by your logic even what you are saying doesn't make it right, just because you are enthusiastic abt SoC. Sure everything is possible in programming language, with enough time and coders, it took almost 10 years to get first proper ps3 emulation on PC. But like u said "Emulation is alway worth it" and just because MS could do it so can sony , if you knew PS3 isntruction sets you would never ever in your life would wanna touch a gaming console again MS codes were more straight forward three cores gpu and one memory pool..thats it those were our targets, and those can be emulated without moving messing around codes that much.

And none of what you have said here directly contradicts my prior statements.

taus90 said:

even if Sony takes the approach of MS who have like 100's of employee to repackage 360 games and bake them in future updates, just the amount of time that will be spend to break down the codes written to co-processors on PS3 and make it run on x86 instruction set will be equivalent to remaking a remaster with updated textures.

And you are just confirming my point. It's not an impossible feat, you are just making up excuses.

But no, it will not be an equivalent to remaking a remaster. Why? Because once you have the framework built, in theory you should have a good flow of games going out the door.

taus90 said:


So in short its not worth it.

Whether or not it is worth it is ultimately irrelevant. Nor do I care if you find it a waste of time. Not my circus, not my problem... Fact of the matter is...
It is worth it to me, it is worth it to millions of others, I couldn't give a crap about the advertising/financial side of the equation as that is not my problem.


taus90 said:


P.S. BC compatibility was always on card for MS from the start, it was never an knee jerk reaction to PS4 run away success, inital plan was to offset it to cloud processing, but the dream of a always online console fell through so MS had to find a way to make it offline.

And you just agreed with me yet again.
If you bothered to read my prior posts, I pointed to parts of the Xbox One SoC design that retained some hardware backwards compatibility with the Xbox 360.

Kyuu said:

Pemalite said:

Power isn't the issue.
Playstation 3 emulators on the PC not only run better, but perform better than the Xbox 360 emulators.

There are ways to engineer around various issues which I highlighted prior.

I was clearly referring to proper old school emulation; not "semi-porting" games individually then call it "emulation" Emulating PS3 via software does require better specs than what the PS4 has to offer, so it's definitely an issue of power.

If PS5 is powerful enough, Sony could achieve emulating PS3 without having to rework things for every game. Like with capable PC's.

Microsoft is doing a little bit of emulation on the Xbox One.

Either way, running Playstation 3 games on the Playstation 4 is indeed possible if Sony is willing to put in the hard work.

I mean shit... People said running Xbox 360 games on the Xbox One was impossible and I argued that wasn't the case multiple times. - Guess who was right about that? I was, that's who. (Thanks Microsoft.)

Eric2048 said:

Even the most powerful PC's have trouble emulating PS3 games there's no way PS4 could. but BC for PS1 and PS2 titles should be a thing.

When you are chopping up instructions and having to process sometimes multiple-times more work, what do you expect? Not an issue for Sony and Microsoft though when they have intimate knowledge of the software and hardware ecosystems anyway.

PC Emulation isn't representative of the approach to Emulation on a console, it's as simple as that.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

You are conflating separate issues entirely. And that is a logical fallacy.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

twintail said:
flashfire926 said:

Sure, so you're saying they stoped being more PS2 games because they couldn't anymore. There are many many more games that would be playable that aren't on the program, even when we exclude the unplayable games. They stopped supporting it because of a lacking of interest, not because they couldn't.

They stopped supporting bringing PS2 classics to PS4?

If I pop a PS2 disc into my PS4, even if it's a PS2 classic on PS4, nothing happens.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
DonFerrari said:

The only strong correlation is in your mind, using only an average of an arbitrary number.

Easier way to see it... X360 didn't had BC, launch PS3 had... PS3 removed BC and reduced cost, selling more, didn't affect much X360... PS4 and X1 didn't had BC, X1 got it, sales didn't really change... so BC is unconsequential.

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

Sorry but no, it doesn't. The numbers only show that there were successful and failed consoles with/without BC and ignoring all the other factors

Pemalite said:
TranceformerFX said:
The PS3's "Cell" architecture is propietary, the PS4's X86 architecture is not. That is why you can't have backwards compatibility. I have now enlightened this thread and the ignorance has illuminated into knowledge.

Moderators can now close this thread. Have a good day.

The Xbox 360's CPU is propriety.
The Xbox One's x86 CPU is not.

And Microsoft achieved backwards compatibility.

taus90 said:

So by your logic even what you are saying doesn't make it right, just because you are enthusiastic abt SoC. Sure everything is possible in programming language, with enough time and coders, it took almost 10 years to get first proper ps3 emulation on PC. But like u said "Emulation is alway worth it" and just because MS could do it so can sony , if you knew PS3 isntruction sets you would never ever in your life would wanna touch a gaming console again MS codes were more straight forward three cores gpu and one memory pool..thats it those were our targets, and those can be emulated without moving messing around codes that much.

And none of what you have said here directly contradicts my prior statements.

taus90 said:

even if Sony takes the approach of MS who have like 100's of employee to repackage 360 games and bake them in future updates, just the amount of time that will be spend to break down the codes written to co-processors on PS3 and make it run on x86 instruction set will be equivalent to remaking a remaster with updated textures.

And you are just confirming my point. It's not an impossible feat, you are just making up excuses.

But no, it will not be an equivalent to remaking a remaster. Why? Because once you have the framework built, in theory you should have a good flow of games going out the door.

taus90 said:


So in short its not worth it.

Whether or not it is worth it is ultimately irrelevant. Nor do I care if you find it a waste of time. Not my circus, not my problem... Fact of the matter is...
It is worth it to me, it is worth it to millions of others, I couldn't give a crap about the advertising/financial side of the equation as that is not my problem.


taus90 said:


P.S. BC compatibility was always on card for MS from the start, it was never an knee jerk reaction to PS4 run away success, inital plan was to offset it to cloud processing, but the dream of a always online console fell through so MS had to find a way to make it offline.

And you just agreed with me yet again.
If you bothered to read my prior posts, I pointed to parts of the Xbox One SoC design that retained some hardware backwards compatibility with the Xbox 360.

Kyuu said:

I was clearly referring to proper old school emulation; not "semi-porting" games individually then call it "emulation" Emulating PS3 via software does require better specs than what the PS4 has to offer, so it's definitely an issue of power.

If PS5 is powerful enough, Sony could achieve emulating PS3 without having to rework things for every game. Like with capable PC's.

Microsoft is doing a little bit of emulation on the Xbox One.

Either way, running Playstation 3 games on the Playstation 4 is indeed possible if Sony is willing to put in the hard work.

I mean shit... People said running Xbox 360 games on the Xbox One was impossible and I argued that wasn't the case multiple times. - Guess who was right about that? I was, that's who. (Thanks Microsoft.)

Eric2048 said:

Even the most powerful PC's have trouble emulating PS3 games there's no way PS4 could. but BC for PS1 and PS2 titles should be a thing.

When you are chopping up instructions and having to process sometimes multiple-times more work, what do you expect? Not an issue for Sony and Microsoft though when they have intimate knowledge of the software and hardware ecosystems anyway.

PC Emulation isn't representative of the approach to Emulation on a console, it's as simple as that.

The_Liquid_Laser said:

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

You are conflating separate issues entirely. And that is a logical fallacy.

If there really were million valuating BC the sales of PS3 and X1 should have seem a more noticeable impact



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Pemalite said:

 

The_Liquid_Laser said:

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

You are conflating separate issues entirely. And that is a logical fallacy.


Details?

Conina said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

If you don't think that method is objective, then just look at the consoles that won each generation.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

 

That is 5 winners for it and 2 against it.  BC is strongly correlated with success.  You may not personally value backwards compatibility, but the data strongly correlates BC with success.

As much as I love BC in consoles... it doesn't seem to be a deciding factor for most people, especially nowadays (PS4 & Switch & Wii U).

If you include GBA as a winner (although it had no dedicated handhelds as competition), Switch should be included, too.

So it is more like:

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4, Switch
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

Losers that chose to forego BC: Saturn, DreamCast, GameCube
Losers that chose to include BC: PS Vita, Wii U

GBA had N-Gage as competition.  It is not much competition, but it is competition.  Switch will have PS5 and XBox4 (or whatever they call it) as competitors so it is too early to call it a winner.  And you left out a whole pile of losers.  There are tons and tons, but if I just point out Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft and Sega, then it looks like this.

Winners that chose to forego BC: SNES, PS4 
Winners that chose to include BC: PS2, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS

Losers that chose to forego BC: N64, Saturn, Virtual Boy, DreamCast, GameCube, PS3*, PS Vita
Losers that chose to include BC: Genesis, XBox360, XB1, Wii U

*the vast majority of PS3s sold were not backwards compatible with PS2 games.

The list of winners has a lot more consoles that are backwards compatible.  The list of losers has a lot more consoles that are not backwards compatible.  Sega and Microsoft never had a console that was #1 for the generation, but their most successful consoles were the Genesis and Xbox360, respectively.  Both of these consoles have backwards compatibility.  

The data clearly shows that backwards compatibility strongly correlates with success.  For a site dedicated to looking at sales data, there seems to be a surprising number of people who really resent what the data says.