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The American family is falling apart

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maybe just not as many people are getting married, or getting married later.

 Been away for a bit, but sneaking back in.

Gaming on: PS4, PC, 3DS. Currently experiencing Dragon Quest 8 for the first time :D

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o_O.Q said:
contestgamer said:

Yeah, but take a look at what they did to competing tribes...

they got wrecked by competing tribes... because they shame their men out of developing masculinity and dominance

furthermore the "competing tribes" now live in cities driving lamborghinis, picking up their meals from olive garden

Yeah, because that's the only way these things can happen.  /s

No one is trying to shame men out of masculinity. 



sundin13 said:
CrazyGamer2017 said:

If I may disagree, when you marry a human being you marry a person that is by definition not perfect and can potentially carry flaws, serious ones in some cases, and rape is not even the worst, that spouse could be a murderer, a sadist etc...

Though I'd agree with your assessment that it will not be obvious at least at first that a spouse can be a murderer or a sadist or to stay on the issue we discuss here, a rapist, getting to know that person well, actually very well would help towards determining what kind of person he/she is. The point remains that when you marry someone it's as the priest VERY CLEARLY says: you do for the better and for the WORSE, in health and in sickness etc. in OTHER WORDS you are WARNED and at that point you choose to go on with marriage thus you take your responsibilities. Again this is obviously not valid for forced marriages, I'm just saying, before someone jumps at my throat about this specific case. If you are forced into marriage, you have no choice and therefore no responsibility, no one can tell you to wise up and be more careful next time cause you were forced. So my opinion applies in freely consenting marriages.

I should probably add that the only ones who have zero responsibility since they have zero choice in marriage are the children born out of that union. OBVIOUSLY!

No.

You are not signing a contract which accepts your spouse raping you when you get married.

That is incredibly fucked up.

Under no stretch of the imagination, does marrying someone mean that you have been warned that you might get raped, or that you should accept or live with such "flaws" in your significant other.

There is no reasonable interpretation of marriage under which the threat of rape or abuse is implied.

To make the statement that you have been warned about your spouse being a rapist when you say your vows, is to tell women who have been victims of abuse that they have signed up for this and they will be the one in the wrong should they try to flee from this abusive situation.

Further, I agree with BradleyJ. The mindset of "she married me so she should be willing to fuck whenever I am" can and does lead to marital rape, but you have also been pushing a mindset which makes it more difficult for people to leave abusive relationships, makes it more difficult for individuals to get past their abuse and makes them feel like they are the ones to blame for the abuse.

"You are not signing a contract which accepts your spouse raping you when you get married."

sure but considering that we live in a rape culture there's that ever-present risk

 

"There is no reasonable interpretation of marriage under which the threat of rape or abuse is implied."

depends on whether a man is involved or not when you consider certain statistics



My pronouns are REX and REY

CrazyGamer2017 said:
o_O.Q said:

"incidents like robbery or stabbings have a realistic chance to occur during night time. On the other hand, marriages are made with no visible or known signs that rape is a realistic possibility"

but is that true? is it not a widely held belief that we live in a rape culture?

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/03/examples-of-rape-culture/

http://www.kcrg.com/content/news/People-March-Against-Rape-Culture-in-Iowa-City-479060463.html

 

and that rape culture is perpetuated through men

http://theconversation.com/what-rape-culture-says-about-masculinity-85513

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/seeing-sexual-harassment-and-violence-mens-issue/

If I may disagree, when you marry a human being you marry a person that is by definition not perfect and can potentially carry flaws, serious ones in some cases, and rape is not even the worst, that spouse could be a murderer, a sadist etc...

Though I'd agree with your assessment that it will not be obvious at least at first that a spouse can be a murderer or a sadist or to stay on the issue we discuss here, a rapist, getting to know that person well, actually very well would help towards determining what kind of person he/she is. The point remains that when you marry someone it's as the priest VERY CLEARLY says: you do for the better and for the WORSE, in health and in sickness etc. in OTHER WORDS you are WARNED and at that point you choose to go on with marriage thus you take your responsibilities. Again this is obviously not valid for forced marriages, I'm just saying, before someone jumps at my throat about this specific case. If you are forced into marriage, you have no choice and therefore no responsibility, no one can tell you to wise up and be more careful next time cause you were forced. So my opinion applies in freely consenting marriages.

I should probably add that the only ones who have zero responsibility since they have zero choice in marriage are the children born out of that union. OBVIOUSLY!

 

well its been a curious fact that serial killers like ted bundy and richard ramirez recieved dozens of marriage proposals in jail

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10665003/Murderous-love-Why-are-so-many-women-aroused-by-serial-killers.html

 

but regardless rape is defined explicitly as non-consensual penetration which means against the will of the victim

so even if you take into consideration the victim accepting the character flaws of their partner there's still the question of their consent for particular interactions occurring within the relationship regardless of whether its as extreme a situation as marrying a serial killer



My pronouns are REX and REY

the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

they got wrecked by competing tribes... because they shame their men out of developing masculinity and dominance

furthermore the "competing tribes" now live in cities driving lamborghinis, picking up their meals from olive garden

Yeah, because that's the only way these things can happen.  /s

No one is trying to shame men out of masculinity. 

 

"Yeah, because that's the only way these things can happen. "

actually it is... if you think for a while about what actually causes inequality between people it should be apparent why this is the solution those tribes came up with

 

"No one is trying to shame men out of masculinity. "

wrong, the term toxic masculinity despite all of the semantic games being played around it is being used as a catch all term for masculine traits that can be problematic when taken too far such as competition, strength, bravery etc etc etc

the problem is simpletons stupidly try to reduce the complexity of people down to neat little boxes that are considered either "good" or "bad/toxic" and then think that we can just toss away the bad boxes without understanding the linkages between different aspects of what makes us tick



My pronouns are REX and REY

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sundin13 said:

No.

You are not signing a contract which accepts your spouse raping you when you get married.

That is incredibly fucked up.

Under no stretch of the imagination, does marrying someone mean that you have been warned that you might get raped, or that you should accept or live with such "flaws" in your significant other.

There is no reasonable interpretation of marriage under which the threat of rape or abuse is implied.

To make the statement that you have been warned about your spouse being a rapist when you say your vows, is to tell women who have been victims of abuse that they have signed up for this and they will be the one in the wrong should they try to flee from this abusive situation.

Further, I agree with BradleyJ. The mindset of "she married me so she should be willing to fuck whenever I am" can and does lead to marital rape, but you have also been pushing a mindset which makes it more difficult for people to leave abusive relationships, makes it more difficult for individuals to get past their abuse and makes them feel like they are the ones to blame for the abuse.

I don't mean to say that you are literally "warned" that you can get raped, I'm saying that you are warned about joining a human being that can carry any flaw carried by human beings and that is a FACT.

Also you are again misinterpreting my words: Where did I say that you sign a contract ACCEPTING that your spouse can rape you? Where on earth did I say that? Of course that this would be 'incredibly fucked up", and also incredibly dumb. Who would sign a paper that literally says that you accept being raped? But what is ALSO fucked up is that you are trying to imply that I said that. Why? It's one thing to disagree with me, but it's another to make me say things I did not say.

As for the threat of abuse or rape being implied in marriage, I never said it was implied either. No one marries assuming they can be abused, obviously. I'm ONLY saying people should be careful and consider the worst. Do I know that guy well enough to marry him? But people don't ask that question to themselves nowhere near enough before marriage and THAT is what I mean by them not taking responsibility of their choices to marry.

As for the mindset I have been pushing, you got me so wrong and are so further away from what I have been pushing that it hurts my back. The mindset I have been pushing is one where a woman WISE UP and is SMARTER and more CAUTIOUS and does not too easily TRUST a man and as a consequence will not so easily marry that man because she takes responsibility for her choice of marriage, therefore such a woman is ACTUALLY going to statistically avoid situations where she could fall victim to an abuser.

YOU on the other hand with this mindset of no responsibility for her choice, nothing she can do, just marry and see what happens, if it's a good guy, good if it's a bad guy, too bad... THAT mindset is the worst in my opinion, it's a mindset of ignorance, it's the SAME mindset where women are not educated to STD's  and how they can be protected by using condoms from unwanted pregnancy or STD's or no one teaches them to be careful and smart and ask for a prenup contract to protect their assets before marrying some guy who could totally rob them blind etc. Because if you teach her to wise up and take RESPONSIBILITY for her choices, she'll be MORE in CONTROL of her life. So in my opinion not wanting a woman to take responsibility for her choices and therefore be more in control of her life is incredibly fucked up.

"It's not your choice, honey, it's not your responsibility, so no need to learn about life, choices, STD's, rape, robbers of assets inside marriage etc. No need to learn that my little girl cause you have NO RESPONSIBILITY in the choices that will be taken in your life...."

(THIS IS INCREDIBLY FUCKED UP and THIS is what I'm fighting in this debate) This is what I have been saying throughout this debate and yet some people not only ignored this but also went as far as saying that I am implying that women are guilty of men raping them within marriage which is as opposite as day and night to what I am saying.

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 10 April 2018

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No more bullying from mods with their abusive bans against me.

CrazyGamer2017 said:

I don't mean to say that you are literally "warned" that you can get raped, I'm saying that you are warned about joining a human being that can carry any flaw carried by human beings and that is a FACT.

Also you are again misinterpreting my words: Where did I say that you sign a contract ACCEPTING that your spouse can rape you? Where on earth did I say that? Of course that this would be 'incredibly fucked up", and also incredibly dumb. Who would sign a paper that literally says that you accept being raped? But what is ALSO fucked up is that you are trying to imply that I said that. Why? It's one thing to disagree with me, but it's another to make me say things I did not say.

As for the threat of abuse or rape being implied in marriage, I never said it was implied either. No one marries assuming they can be abused, obviously. I'm ONLY saying people should be careful and consider the worst. Do I know that guy well enough to marry him? But people don't ask that question to themselves nowhere near enough before marriage and THAT is what I mean by them not taking responsibility of their choices to marry.

As for the mindset I have been pushing, you got me so wrong and are so further away from what I have been pushing that it hurts my back. The mindset I have been pushing is one where a woman WISE UP and is SMARTER and more CAUTIOUS and does not too easily TRUST a man and as a consequence will not so easily marry that man because she takes responsibility for her choice of marriage, therefore such a woman is ACTUALLY going to statistically avoid situations where she could fall victim to an abuser.

YOU on the other hand with this mindset of no responsibility for her choice, nothing she can do, just marry and see what happens, if it's a good guy, good if it's a bad guy, too bad... THAT mindset is the worst in my opinion, it's a mindset of ignorance, it's the SAME mindset where women are not educated to STD's  and how they can be protected by using condoms from unwanted pregnancy or STD's or no one teaches them to be careful and smart and ask for a prenup contract to protect their assets before marrying some guy who could totally rob them blind etc. Because if you teach her to wise up and take RESPONSIBILITY for her choices, she'll be MORE in CONTROL of her life. So in my opinion not wanting a woman to take responsibility for her choices and therefore be more in control of her life is incredibly fucked up.

"It's not your choice, honey, it's not your responsibility, so no need to learn about life, choices, STD's, rape, robbers of assets inside marriage etc. No need to learn that my little girl cause you have NO RESPONSIBILITY in the choices that will be taken in your life...."

(THIS IS INCREDIBLY FUCKED UP and THIS is what I'm fighting in this debate) This is what I have been saying throughout this debate and yet some people not only ignored this but also went as far as saying that I am implying that women are guilty of men raping them within marriage which is as opposite as day and night to what I am saying.

You say that it's a non sequitur right here:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8771892

And again, you're talking about her having to take responsibility, once again trying to focus on what she should have done instead of just saying that the husband shouldn't have raped her.



VGPolyglot said:

You say that it's a non sequitur right here:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8771892

And again, you're talking about her having to take responsibility, once again trying to focus on what she should have done instead of just saying that the husband shouldn't have raped her.

I have clearly explained to you time and again that my original post was an observation on the oddness of rape within marriage, just an observation. yes I said it strikes me as odd that one would marry a person only to tell that person one does not wish to have sex later on.

it's an OBSERVATION and nothing more and as such it is indeed a non sequitur.

But from there, people began saying that I condone rape within marriage, therefore I had to ADAPT to that SHIFT and explain my position on rape inside marriage which one could say is another issue from the original one.

If you start a post saying, how the weather is weird and all and some people start attacking and accusing you of, I don't know, trying to control the weather to destroy mankind or something, you will NATURALLY SHIFT your posts from "wow this weather we have is weird" to "I am not saying we should control the weather to destroy mankind"

Then a guy like you shows up and tries to hold against me that my original post was about how weird the weather is compared to my current posts about me not trying to control the weather to destroy mankind.

In other words I don't mind discussing my original point but, and I don't know if you noticed but I'm STILL BUSY explaining and defending my argument in this SHIFT that I did not cause. So what do you want? Discuss my original point? Discuss the shift? or perhaps you are trying to imply that the shift means what? that I have no point? that I'm a bad person?

I don't mind you asking me why my original point was what it was compared to what is currently discussed, but when I ALREADY answered that question both publicly and privately and you come up with this issue again, forgive me but I can't help but wonder about your motives. Are we in a mindset of debate or back in that mindset of two days ago of my being attacked and my words being misconstrued to make me say what I very clearly did not say?

EDIT: ASLO when time and again I very clearly say that rape inside marriage is a crime and the culprit is the rapist, I pretty much answer your last line... AGAIN.



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No more bullying from mods with their abusive bans against me.

CrazyGamer2017 said:
VGPolyglot said:

You say that it's a non sequitur right here:

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8771892

And again, you're talking about her having to take responsibility, once again trying to focus on what she should have done instead of just saying that the husband shouldn't have raped her.

I have clearly explained to you time and again that my original post was an observation on the oddness of rape within marriage, just an observation. yes I said it strikes me as odd that one would marry a person only to tell that person one does not wish to have sex later on.

it's an OBSERVATION and nothing more and as such it is indeed a non sequitur.

But from there, people began saying that I condone rape within marriage, therefore I had to ADAPT to that SHIFT and explain my position on rape inside marriage which one could say is another issue from the original one.

If you start a post saying, how the weather is weird and all and some people start attacking and accusing you of, I don't know, trying to control the weather to destroy mankind or something, you will NATURALLY SHIFT your posts from "wow this weather we have is weird" to "I am not saying we should control the weather to destroy mankind"

Then a guy like you shows up and tries to hold against me that my original post was about how weird the weather is compared to my current posts about me not trying to control the weather to destroy mankind.

In other words I don't mind discussing my original point but, and I don't know if you noticed but I'm STILL BUSY explaining and defending my argument in this SHIFT that I did not cause. So what do you want? Discuss my original point? Discuss the shift? or perhaps you are trying to imply that the shift means what? that I have no point? that I'm a bad person?

I don't mind you asking me why my original point was what it was compared to what is currently discussed, but when I ALREADY answered that question both publicly and privately and you come up with this issue again, forgive me but I can't help but wonder about your motives. Are we in a mindset of debate or back in that mindset of two days ago of my being attacked and my words being misconstrued to make me say what I very clearly did not say?

You know, not everyone wants to have sex all the time. And I don't remember you saying that you condone rape within marriage, but I do remember saying that you're playing the focus and emphasis on the wrong person, and putting responsibility (aka blame) on someone that you shouldn't be. And as to you saying that you already answered this publicly and privately, I told you that if you keep on trying to stick with this and post it, that I'm going to oppose you. You decided to post in here again, so that's why.



VGPolyglot said:

You know, not everyone wants to have sex all the time. And I don't remember you saying that you condone rape within marriage, but I do remember saying that you're playing the focus and emphasis on the wrong person, and putting responsibility (aka blame) on someone that you shouldn't be. And as to you saying that you already answered this publicly and privately, I told you that if you keep on trying to stick with this and post it, that I'm going to oppose you. You decided to post in here again, so that's why.

Yes you did warn me that you'd oppose me and I did warn you that I do not easily give in to peer pressure or anything like that.

I absolutely do not mind you questioning what I say I'm only asking you and others to use logic and good sense and just cause people don't like what they hear does not mean misinterpreting or misconstruing what is said on purpose is a good way to debate.

For example I don't like Republicans so if I ever debate that issue I'll have the intellectual honesty to debate what they say or do. I will NOT say that Republicans killed the dinosaurs just to make them look bad or just cause I can't find any other angle to debate them. I find that approach abhorrent and unnecessary, if I don't like them I take some time with myself to think about why I don't like them. From there I either have reasons and then I bring those reasons to the debate OR I realize that I have no good reasons and then I simply admit that I should not dislike or attack them in debate cause I don't really have things to hold against them. That's my approach to any issue that can be debated.

But I want to thank you for admitting that you see that I do not condone rape within marriage, it's an honest move from you and while we may strongly disagree on the rest of this debate or any future debate, I always appreciate this kind of honesty.

As for putting blame on the wrong person. I don't think I do. Perhaps this debate makes some people think that if I saw a victim of rape that I would point my finger with an angry stare and blame that person or something but that's not what I say or would do. The blame of the act of raping I CLEARLY put on the rapist. The words I use here are words specific to a debate, they are OBVIOUSLY not the same if I actually were in front of a rape victim. People need to understand this very important nuance. First you cannot just speak of this with a victim cause I believe that this is a very personal thing that a victim may not want to talk about so the first thing is to be really close to the victim to the point of her agreeing to trust you with details. Only then can you speak about this issue with the victim.

At that point I would never use words like "you are to blame" I would try to teach her to take RESPONSIBILITY for her future choices by teaching her to be more cautious, not to be too trusty of a guy she may not know well enough, I'd try to make her realize that we live in a world where there is violence and bad people and evil corporations and everything like that and that we ALL must wise up and realize that the powers out there do not mean us good and it's up to us to make choices that will be the best for ourselves. I'd try to make her realize that just cause some guy with a nice suit and a bright smile appears to be "gentleman-like" does not mean he may not have some nefarious intentions etc... in other words I'd make her be more wise and cautious and take more responsibility for HER CHOICES because if she can do that, chances of being a victim again will decrease.

Perhaps If I had been able to talk to her BEFORE she married that guy that would end up raping her, perhaps I could have saved her with my advice and words which you gentlemen deem horrible and unacceptable.

But isn't that what responsible parents do? Teach their kids responsibility for their choices? Doesn't the concerned father try to warn his 15 years old daughter to be very careful when she goes to some party? Or should that father tell his daughter: Sure go ahead, see the boys, do whatever they say: if something bad happens, you have no responsibility in your choices honey.

Would you do that? Cause I wouldn't, I would want my daughter to take as much responsibility in her choices as possible in the hopes that it would allow her to precisely make the right choices. Cause some of the boys at that party could have nefarious purposes and what is easier than to trick an innocent girl at a party? All it takes it to roofie her drink and voila. But a smart girl that takes responsibility for her choices will know BETTER, she will not let her drink unattended, will NOT follow this stranger in his car. will stay away from people that are up to no good etc...

But this culture of avoiding responsibility is what leads to rapes in my opinion, why teach her to be careful if her choices are not her responsibility, right?

Last edited by CrazyGamer2017 - on 10 April 2018

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No more bullying from mods with their abusive bans against me.