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Forums - Politics Discussion - Is Russia closer to causing a massive War than North Korea or even the United States?

Rab said:
Final-Fan said:

If oversimplification helps you sleep at night, then go for it.  But dropping the bomb on two cities still caused fewer civilian casualties than an all-out invasion, even without considering the inevitable "human wave" tactics they'd have been dragooned into, and the little fact that large portions of the country were on the verge of starving to death. 

Well if we are going to be Honest, the US could have ignited those bombs offshore as a warning to gage reactions first, then if they "had to", drop bombs on military targets, but the reason that is cited by some back then is that the US wanted to see what a Atom bomb could do to a city full of people, in retrospect it was the World's worst war crime in modern history, but no one has ever been charged or investigated  

I challenge you to provide solid evidence for your claim that a major motivating factor for dropping the bombs on cities instead of for target practice was just to see what they did to people.  The things were not exactly easy to produce. 



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Lucas-Rio said:

Russia does not seek domination of the world, the US does.

Russia has't surrounded the US with military bases , the US surrounded Russia with military bases very far from the US.

Russia does no try to overthrow governement of other countries, while the US is ready to invade, attack or put enormous pressure on other countries to make them obey.

I am all for a powerful Russia able to check and diminish the acts of the agressive and imperialist US in the world. The world needs balance.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Rab said:

Well if we are going to be Honest, the US could have ignited those bombs offshore as a warning to gage reactions first, then if they "had to", drop bombs on military targets, but the reason that is cited by some back then is that the US wanted to see what a Atom bomb could do to a city full of people, in retrospect it was the World's worst war crime in modern history, but no one has ever been charged or investigated  

I challenge you to provide solid evidence for your claim that a major motivating factor for dropping the bombs on cities instead of for target practice was just to see what they did to people.  The things were not exactly easy to produce. 

There is little in the way of "Solid" evidence as no formal investigation by outside authorities were ever commissioned, unlike what we would see in a war crimes investigation



Rab said:
Final-Fan said:

I challenge you to provide solid evidence for your claim that a major motivating factor for dropping the bombs on cities instead of for target practice was just to see what they did to people.  The things were not exactly easy to produce. 

There is little in the way of "Solid" evidence as no formal investigation by outside authorities were ever commissioned, unlike what we would see in a war crimes investigation

There are plenty of declassified reports, records of orders being given, diaries, etc.  You just haven't looked, have you?  You went with your gut and don't need any evidence. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

okr said:
StarOcean said:
... But they are dangerous, much more so than North Korea or any terrorist groups. Like what has been said before, they’re testing out how much they can push before retaliation. Of course, the western worlds main priority should be for the execution of Putin and the dismemberment of Russia. The country has no right to its existence and should have been dealt its final blow in 1991. But due to weak leadership, it didn’t die. It is not nearly as strong as when it was the USSR, but it is still dangerous. Once the US gets its shit together most, if not all, of our efforts should go into destroying it

So much nonsense in one post. Cute.

A person like you thinking this is nonsense is more than enough to prove my point

VGPolyglot said:
StarOcean said:
They won’t start a war. They aren’t dumb. But they are dangerous, much more so than North Korea or any terrorist groups. Like what has been said before, they’re testing out how much they can push before retaliation. Of course, the western worlds main priority should be for the execution of Putin and the dismemberment of Russia. The country has no right to its existence and should have been dealt its final blow in 1991. But due to weak leadership, it didn’t die. It is not nearly as strong as when it was the USSR, but it is still dangerous. Once the US gets its shit together most, if not all, of our efforts should go into destroying it

Dismembered? So essentially carved up like how Africa was during the 19th century?

Worse. It should never stand again. Preferrably like the middle east, always in conflict 



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Final-Fan said:
Rab said:

There is little in the way of "Solid" evidence as no formal investigation by outside authorities were ever commissioned, unlike what we would see in a war crimes investigation

There are plenty of declassified reports, records of orders being given, diaries, etc.  You just haven't looked, have you?  You went with your gut and don't need any evidence. 

White noise, no formal 3rd party investigation has ever been conducted, my gut tells me the US is too powerful to be investigated by outside authorities, and my gut also tells me that the US government would never want such a conversation being known

Quotes from those that were appalled by the unnecessary use of the Atom Bomb at that time

GENERAL DWIGHT EISENHOWER
(Supreme Commander of Allies Forces in Europe)

". . . the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63.

GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR
(Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers in Japan)

MacArthur biographer William Manchester has described MacArthur's reaction to the issuance by the Allies of the Potsdam Proclamation to Japan: ". . . the Potsdam declaration in July, demand[ed] that Japan surrender unconditionally or face 'prompt and utter destruction'. MacArthur was appalled. He knew that the Japanese would never renounce their emperor, and that without him an orderly transition to peace would be impossible anyhow, because his people would never submit to Allied occupation unless he ordered it. Ironically, when the surrender did come, it was conditional, and the condition was a continuation of the imperial reign. Had the general's advice been followed, the resort to atomic weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been unnecessary."

William Manchester, "American Caesar: Douglas MacArthur 1880-1964", pg. 512.

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D LEAHY
(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

William Leahy, "I Was There", pg. 441.

JOHN McCLOY
(Assistant Secretary of War)

"I have always felt that if, in our ultimatum to the Japanese government issued from Potsdam [in July 1945], we had referred to the retention of the emperor as a constitutional monarch and had made some reference to the reasonable accessibility of raw materials to the future Japanese government, it would have been accepted. Indeed, I believe that even in the form it was delivered, there was some disposition on the part of the Japanese to give it favourable consideration. When the war was over I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented. I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

McCloy quoted in James Reston, "Deadline", pg. 500.

HERBERT HOOVER
(former President)

". . . the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945 . . . up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped . . . if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs."

Quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., "Judgment at the Smithsonian", pg. 142.

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2010/08/hiroshima-war-japanese 

Last edited by Rab - on 18 March 2018

StarOcean said:

 

VGPolyglot said:

Dismembered? So essentially carved up like how Africa was during the 19th century?

Worse. It should never stand again. Preferrably like the middle east, always in conflict 

So, you want ecological disaster, water crises, mass relocation and displacement, infrastructural destruction and massacres?



Rab said:
Final-Fan said:

There are plenty of declassified reports, records of orders being given, diaries, etc.  You just haven't looked, have you?  You went with your gut and don't need any evidence. 

White noise, no formal 3rd party investigation has ever been conducted, my gut tells me the US is too powerful to be investigated by outside authorities, and my gut also tells me that the US government would never want such a conversation being known

Quotes from those that were appalled by the unnecessary use of the Atom Bomb at that time

We can argue about that later:  none of those quotes IN ANY WAY addresses the claim that I issued my "challenge" on.  In case you didn't pay attention: 

"the reason that is cited by some back then is that the US wanted to see what a Atom bomb could do to a city full of people, in retrospect it was the World's worst war crime in modern history"

"I challenge you to provide solid evidence for your claim that a major motivating factor for dropping the bombs on cities instead of for target practice was just to see what they did to people."

Should I assume that you are abandoning this claim? 

P.S.  Worse than the Nazi "Final Solution", really? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Rab said:

White noise, no formal 3rd party investigation has ever been conducted, my gut tells me the US is too powerful to be investigated by outside authorities, and my gut also tells me that the US government would never want such a conversation being known

Quotes from those that were appalled by the unnecessary use of the Atom Bomb at that time

We can argue about that later:  none of those quotes IN ANY WAY addresses the claim that I issued my "challenge" on.  In case you didn't pay attention: 

"the reason that is cited by some back then is that the US wanted to see what a Atom bomb could do to a city full of people, in retrospect it was the World's worst war crime in modern history"

"I challenge you to provide solid evidence for your claim that a major motivating factor for dropping the bombs on cities instead of for target practice was just to see what they did to people."

Should I assume that you are abandoning this claim? 

P.S.  Worse than the Nazi "Final Solution", really? 

Your naive to think that some people in the establishment didn't want to see the consequences of an Atom Bomb, they had used great resources in developing these weapons, there was still the military consideration of what the damage could do, scientific curiosity, they had fully resourced teams ready to go to investigate those consequences once it was clear to go,  I have seen some time ago a Documentary on that subject, but I can't recall who did the the doco, sorry

What needs to be done is investigate the degree in which people were responsible for the war crime, how involved they were, how much influence they had, unfortunately the internet wont proved until a full scale 3rd party investigation is completed  

Also most of my first post included other points which you have ignored, but to be honest I can't be bothered to "argue" as I see your actively defending the US here, so I'll gracefully, or not move on ;)    

Last edited by Rab - on 18 March 2018

PwerlvlAmy said:
Russia is just a leftwing boogeyman. I realize that's not a popular thing to say on here on this site. But that's the way I see it.

I also concur with Final Fan, Russia wont start WW3 or a massive war, if anything it will be us, the united states, who instigates the start of it

doesn't russia collaborate with the us with regards to the space program?

https://www.space.com/g00/38287-nasa-russia-deep-space-gateway-partnership.html?i10c.encReferrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8%3D&i10c.ua=1

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/sep/27/russia-and-us-will-cooperate-to-build-moon-first-space-station

...seems a bit bizarre given current events, but whatever