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Forums - Sony Discussion - UPDATE: RUMOR: PS5 Dev Kits Sent Out This Year. Launch 2019. BC With PS1/PS2/PS3. Sony acquires Silent Hill. Blade Runner PS5 Game At PSX. And More.

Pemalite said:
Intrinsic said:

The X has only a 4 compute unit GPU advantage (36 vs 40CU), yet its got a GPU that's 50% more powerful.

It's actually 42.9%.
That is an 11.11% extra CU advantage to the Xbox One X and the rest is made up from it's clockspeed advantage (28.64%)
However... The Xbox One X also has a massive 50% ROP advantage by default, which also operates 28.64% faster, which is where the real advantage lays, which plays into it's bandwidth advantage too which is significant.

Flops/CU's isn't everything. A balanced, efficient design can be far more important.

Disadvantage actually. Pro has 64 ROPs, XBX only 32 ROPs. Even with the clock disadvantage and lower RAM bandwidth the Pro has a slightly better fillrate than XBX. Actual real Bench-marked fillrate on Pro is a bit higher than the XBX maximum theoretical fillrate.

It can be seen in a few games, in some particular scenes that are heavily fillrate bound, the XBX struggles a bit compared to Pro (particularly if the res is higher on XBX). For instance in scenes where there is a fire in Shadow of mordor on XBX (seen in one of the first DF framerate videos about several XBX games). Also in some rare scenes on COD WWII the Pro game can even output at a slightly higher res than on XBX, and in others many scenes the resolution is very similar in both versions.

Also we know others games run more or less worse on XBX, that could well be explained by a ROP bottleneck. For instance Metal gear survive, Battlefront 2 or Redout.



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globalisateur said:
Pemalite said:

It's actually 42.9%.
That is an 11.11% extra CU advantage to the Xbox One X and the rest is made up from it's clockspeed advantage (28.64%)
However... The Xbox One X also has a massive 50% ROP advantage by default, which also operates 28.64% faster, which is where the real advantage lays, which plays into it's bandwidth advantage too which is significant.

Flops/CU's isn't everything. A balanced, efficient design can be far more important.

Disadvantage actually. Pro has 64 ROPs, XBX only 32 ROPs. Even with the clock disadvantage and lower RAM bandwidth the Pro has a slightly better fillrate than XBX. Actual real Bench-marked fillrate on Pro is a bit higher than the XBX maximum theoretical fillrate.

It can be seen in a few games, in some particular scenes that are heavily fillrate bound, the XBX struggles a bit compared to Pro (particularly if the res is higher on XBX). For instance in scenes where there is a fire in Shadow of mordor on XBX (seen in one of the first DF framerate videos about several XBX games). Also in some rare scenes on COD WWII the Pro game can even output at a slightly higher res than on XBX, and in others many scenes the resolution is very similar in both versions.

Also we know others games run more or less worse on XBX, that could well be explained by a ROP bottleneck. For instance Metal gear survive, Battlefront 2 or Redout.

It could also be explained by those Vega features like 16bit floats in Pro‘s GPU, that X1X is lacking. Especially in effect-heavy scenes this can make a world of a difference, if utilised correctly.



I think 2020 would be better with how well the PS4 is still selling, but if they don't include PS4 BC, then I won't be picking one up for a little while unless it is a completely revolutionary VR machine.





https://www.sie.com/en/corporate/release/2018/180109.html

"PS4 has now cumulatively sold through more than 73.6 million units globally as of December 31, 2017." (4 years, 1 month and 17 days).

Right now, Sony should double down on PS4/PS4 Pro - in my opinion, it has a clear chance of becoming the best selling console of all time.

Releasing PS5 in 2019 won't benefit them.



thismeintiel said:

And even with them being aggressive, they still came in 3rd. MS has never won a gen, nor will it. It took Sony fucking up majorly for them to take that close 3rd. That's just how big the PS brand is. How likely is it that Sony fucks up that big again? They would have to come out a year later, which in itself doesn't matter, with only slightly more powerful HW and a launch price $200 more than MS, but 3rd party games looking worse for a year or so due to complicated HW, to screw up that big, again.

Also, it's pretty obvious that MS doesn't care about Xbox like they did in the 360 days, so they aren't going to be paying millions to gobble up exclusives and marketing rights. Maybe the first year, but once it becomes clear that the PS5 is selling very well, the price to keep things off of PS goes up incredibly. Besides, it didn't help them stay ahead last gen, and it isn't going to help much next gen with Sony firing, once again, on all cylinders. I mean worst case scenario, the PS5 is slightly less powerful, but costs the same as the XB2, and a couple big games come out first on the XB2. That's not going to hurt its sales at all.

As for COD, it became very clear that the audience was split pretty close to 50/50 later in the gen, with NA being skewed 360 and EU/Japan skewing PS3, so exclusive marketing rights and early DLC isn't that big a factor. Of course, we'll also see if MS wants to continue paying for them as the price to do so rises. 

and PS3 almost become 3rd. Yes Sony fucked up. They are lucky that PS brand is strong in ROTW because of 2 successful Console. 
But MS became aggressive remember the Halo marketing? They won the biggest market NA. Sony cannot let that happen again.
The problem here is not who is winning or who is losing by a small margin. Even if PS3 sold 2-5 million ahead of 360 LTD Sony gave that market share to XBOX by giving them a head start and underestimating the Xbox brand.

You are telling me here that Sony should underestimate the Xbox brand again  and let them have a year without competition and stealing market share again for the PS5. They can't let another PS3-360 situation again happen you cannot give your competition any kind of advantage. 

As for the last bit.  COD fanbase favors 360 it's not 50/50. It's more of 60-40 or 55-45. UK and NA are the biggest market for FPS games and 360 is leading on that front. I remember UK being 360 land. What is the market share now for COD between Xbone and PS4? It favors the PS4 more and that is what Sony wants. They don't want to share 50/50 with the new box or the new Xbox having more market share.

Shadow1980 said:
NoCtiS_NoX said:

We are on a different market now. Time has changed. Xbox is a strong brand now. PS strongest competitor. 
We have the COD games now, Assassin's creed and Battlefield. Imagined the next box releasing with those 3. 
And your last bit imagined the new Xbox releasing with all those things you mentioned and with a headstart. Do you think MS will not be aggressive knowing that they don't have any competition? Maybe you are underestimating the marketing power of MS and do you think MS didn't learn it's lesson from Xbone? If Sony gave them that advantage then they are just giving the MS a free ride for the whole year with no competition and building it's fanbase. 

and Do you think the COD fanbase will switch to PS5 if it is release a year after? You are underestimating the effect of that game and the peer pressure from that fanbase. 
Do you think if PS5 launch MS will not use the Price drop strategy for it's xbox to steal thunder for PS5? 
IMO Sony will not give any sort of advantage to MS. They learn their lesson with the PS3 and to some extend PS4. 

"We are on a different market now"? If you're going to invent new "rules of sales" by saying that release timing matters now when it never did in any prior generation, I'm going to need some good evidence justifying it. The burden of proof is on you to show that release timing is now an important factor.

As a counterargument, if the Xbox 4 releases too early, it may not be sufficiently powerful compared to the X1X. Even if it is, it may not be as powerful as the PS5, especially if MS goes for a $400 price point and Sony goes for a $500 price point. Furthermore, CoD may be big, but it's not as big as it used to be, plus whatever CoD game is first released for the Xbox 4, it will be a cross-gen game, and thus unlikely to be pushing the Xbox 4's hardware much. While it may have slightly better textures and/or run at a higher resolution, the difference may not be sufficient to make it such a superior port that CoD players on PS4 will start to abandon PlayStation to make the jump to the Xbox 4.

Finally, the PS3 didn't suffer because it released a year after the 360. It suffered because "FIVE HUNDRED NINETY NINE U.S. DOLLARS!" The 360 had a massive price advantage right out of the gate. The 20GB 360 "Pro" was $100 cheaper than the comparable PS3 SKU for a full year after the PS3 launched. By time the PS3 had been cut to $400, the 360 Pro had been reduced to $350. And the PS3 wouldn't get reduced to $300 until a full year after the 360 Pro had been reduced to that price. It wasn't until Aug. 2009 that the PS3 finally got to price parity with the 360, and by that point it was too late to take the lead in the U.S. Once the 360 S was released in June 2010, the PS3 didn't stand a chance (though the PS3 still dominated in Europe and Japan).

No, I am not making new rules. Today's market is different from the data you have provided. We are on the the market that all 3 brand name are strong. With Sony's and MS' console is very close in terms of specs and with this gen. Sony and MS introduced Pro and XBoX. A hardware revisions that  upgrade the system and late 2019 is 2 years after XBX launch. ( I can also make this as counter argument to the bold). It doesn't matter if the OG NXbox is underpowered when they can announced a more powerful console the beats even PS5 later on.

Also, If MS launch first since Xbox and PS shares the 90% same library now. You cannot leave the competition unattended. You are giving your competition a  market share from this 3rd party games for next gen. COD, Battlefield, GTA online and with Co-op games being huge now if you compare it last gen.  
You have to remember Sony is charging us for online aswell. It doesn't matter if Sony win next gen. if NXbox will be able to get a significant market share limiting the profit potential of Sony for PSplus for PS5. I assure you Sony would rather dominate than just winning next gen by 15 Million because PSPlus is a money grabber for them.  

Lastly, obviously price is a factor as well but being first in today's market will give you a big advantage. If NXbox explode like the Switch in it's first year believe me it will be harder for Sony to dominate again if they will release a year after.
Oh and yes 360 having a headstart help them they were able to build that fanbase. If PS3 was released the same year as 360. Last gen would have been different and if PS4 was released a year after Xbone. They couldn't have capitalize with Xbone mistake. 





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LordLichtenstein said:



https://www.sie.com/en/corporate/release/2018/180109.html

"PS4 has now cumulatively sold through more than 73.6 million units globally as of December 31, 2017." (4 years, 1 month and 17 days).

Right now, Sony should double down on PS4/PS4 Pro - in my opinion, it has a clear chance of becoming the best selling console of all time.

Releasing PS5 in 2019 won't benefit them.

 

Agreed. Games and services on PS4 is raking in cash. PS4 is still selling like hotcakes. There's still not the slightest market demand for new, expensive and powerful next-gen hardware. The defining games for PS4 are finally coming in 2018 and 2019.

I hope that PS5 will arrive in late 2020 at the earliest.



globalisateur said:

Disadvantage actually. Pro has 64 ROPs, XBX only 32 ROPs.

I am sorry. But you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Console_GPUs

I tend to fact check all my claims before posting them, you should try it some time.

globalisateur said:

Even with the clock disadvantage and lower RAM bandwidth the Pro has a slightly better fillrate than XBX. Actual real Bench-marked fillrate on Pro is a bit higher than the XBX maximum theoretical fillrate.

Where the hell have you gotten your false information? Holy crap.

Give me the sources so I can hilariously tear it apart.

For Pixel Fillrate you multiply the number of ROPS by the Clockspeed.
For Texel Fillrate, you multiply the number of TMU's by the Clockspeed.
For FLOPS you multiple the number of shaders by instructions per clock and then by the clockspeed.

The Xbox One X has more ROP's, TMU's, Shaders (I provided evidence.) and a higher clock rate.

Essentially 1+1 = 2.

globalisateur said:

It can be seen in a few games, in some particular scenes that are heavily fillrate bound, the XBX struggles a bit compared to Pro (particularly if the res is higher on XBX).

For instance in scenes where there is a fire in Shadow of mordor on XBX (seen in one of the first DF framerate videos about several XBX games). Also in some rare scenes on COD WWII the Pro game can even output at a slightly higher res than on XBX, and in others many scenes the resolution is very similar in both versions.

Also we know others games run more or less worse on XBX, that could well be explained by a ROP bottleneck. For instance Metal gear survive, Battlefront 2 or Redout.

You are clasping at straws at this point.

In every single metric, the Xbox One X has an advantage over the Playstation 4 Pro. - This isn't even up for debate, to say otherwise shows you to be hilariously uneducated on the topic.

I can't even believe I am having this conversation. I literally can't.

Errorist76 said:

It could also be explained by those Vega features like 16bit floats in Pro‘s GPU, that X1X is lacking. Especially in effect-heavy scenes this can make a world of a difference, if utilised correctly.

Rapid Packed Math cannot be used for everything.
It's lower precision, which means it has an impact on the way a game runs/looks.

And considering that the Playstation 4, Xbox One, Xbox One X, 70% of PC GPU's do not have Rapid Packed Math, it's use is always going to be limited, especially for multiplats.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11717/the-amd-radeon-rx-vega-64-and-56-review/4

AMD has been working with futuremark to show the benefits of Rapid Packed Math. - Their take away? 25% increase in performance in 3DMark Serra.
https://overclock3d.net/news/gpu_displays/amd_rx_vega_-_what_is_rapid_packed_math/1
That is far from a doubling that the theoretical floating point performance would otherwise imply don't you agree?

As for image quality, here is a good comparison between FP16 vs FP32. Aka. Half Precision vs Single Precision. Aka. Rapid Packed Math vs Not... Which just reinforces the fact it cannot be used for everything.













--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
globalisateur said:

Disadvantage actually. Pro has 64 ROPs, XBX only 32 ROPs.

I am sorry. But you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Console_GPUs

I tend to fact check all my claims before posting them, you should try it some time.

globalisateur said:

Even with the clock disadvantage and lower RAM bandwidth the Pro has a slightly better fillrate than XBX. Actual real Bench-marked fillrate on Pro is a bit higher than the XBX maximum theoretical fillrate.

Where the hell have you gotten your false information? Holy crap.

Give me the sources so I can hilariously tear it apart.

For Pixel Fillrate you multiply the number of ROPS by the Clockspeed.
For Texel Fillrate, you multiply the number of TMU's by the Clockspeed.
For FLOPS you multiple the number of shaders by instructions per clock and then by the clockspeed.

The Xbox One X has more ROP's, TMU's, Shaders (I provided evidence.) and a higher clock rate.

Essentially 1+1 = 2.

globalisateur said:

It can be seen in a few games, in some particular scenes that are heavily fillrate bound, the XBX struggles a bit compared to Pro (particularly if the res is higher on XBX).

For instance in scenes where there is a fire in Shadow of mordor on XBX (seen in one of the first DF framerate videos about several XBX games). Also in some rare scenes on COD WWII the Pro game can even output at a slightly higher res than on XBX, and in others many scenes the resolution is very similar in both versions.

Also we know others games run more or less worse on XBX, that could well be explained by a ROP bottleneck. For instance Metal gear survive, Battlefront 2 or Redout.

You are clasping at straws at this point.

In every single metric, the Xbox One X has an advantage over the Playstation 4 Pro. - This isn't even up for debate, to say otherwise shows you to be hilariously uneducated on the topic.

I can't even believe I am having this conversation. I literally can't.

Errorist76 said:

It could also be explained by those Vega features like 16bit floats in Pro‘s GPU, that X1X is lacking. Especially in effect-heavy scenes this can make a world of a difference, if utilised correctly.

Rapid Packed Math cannot be used for everything.
It's lower precision, which means it has an impact on the way a game runs/looks.

And considering that the Playstation 4, Xbox One, Xbox One X, 70% of PC GPU's do not have Rapid Packed Math, it's use is always going to be limited, especially for multiplats.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11717/the-amd-radeon-rx-vega-64-and-56-review/4

AMD has been working with futuremark to show the benefits of Rapid Packed Math. - Their take away? 25% increase in performance in 3DMark Serra.
https://overclock3d.net/news/gpu_displays/amd_rx_vega_-_what_is_rapid_packed_math/1
That is far from a doubling that the theoretical floating point performance would otherwise imply don't you agree?

As for image quality, here is a good comparison between FP16 vs FP32. Aka. Half Precision vs Single Precision. Aka. Rapid Packed Math vs Not... Which just reinforces the fact it cannot be used for everything.











You’re really quite the Klugscheisser here. I never said it can be used for everything. I specifically said it can be used to increase FX performance, didn’t I?

A week ago you were still denying the Pro even uses those features.



Errorist76 said:

You’re really quite the Klugscheisser here. I never said it can be used for everything. I specifically said it can be used to increase FX performance, didn’t I?

And I was elaborating on why it cannot be used 100% to "increase FX performance" as you put it.
Just because I have replied to something doesn't actually mean I agree or disagree, I might just quote someone to add insight into the conversation itself by elaborating on various points that have been presented.

If you don't like it? Well. Stiff. Not my problem.

Errorist76 said:

A week ago you were still denying the Pro even uses those features.

I have never made the assertion that the Pro lacks Rapid Packed Math.

Prove me otherwise. Go on. Do it. I dare you. ;)



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
globalisateur said:

Disadvantage actually. Pro has 64 ROPs, XBX only 32 ROPs.

I am sorry. But you are wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AMD_graphics_processing_units#Console_GPUs

I tend to fact check all my claims before posting them, you should try it some time.



















Maybe you should fact check yourself. Ps4 pro has 64 rops. Check the sources on your wikipedia site it never says anything about having 32 rops. Digitalfoundry recently confirmed ps4 pro has 64 rops.



6x master league achiever in starcraft2

Beaten Sigrun on God of war mode

Beaten DOOM ultra-nightmare with NO endless ammo-rune, 2x super shotgun and no decoys on ps4 pro.

1-0 against Grubby in Wc3 frozen throne ladder!!