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Forums - Politics Discussion - You can't believe trump won?

 

Trump 2020

Hell yes! 20 25.32%
 
Lets wait and see! 3 3.80%
 
Fuck no! 50 63.29%
 
Indifferent/comments/Hilary's dusty pussy... 6 7.59%
 
Total:79
Aura7541 said:
Angelv577 said:
Not surprised. Will be surprised if he wins 2020, that is when I will realize there is no hope for humanity.

Then the Democrats need to step up. The supposed reduction of support of the Democratic Party from millenials on the Reuters/Ipsos poll isn't encouraging.

The problem is that I doubt the Democrats are going to want to change too drastically in order to gain more support, their main platform right now is that they're not Trump/Republicans.



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John2290 said:
VGPolyglot said:

The problem is that I doubt the Democrats are going to want to change too drastically in order to gain more support, their main platform right now is that they're not Trump/Republicans.

A blue moon has occurred, Polyglot actually speaks some sense.

 

Jk man. Agreed with your assessment. 

I'm not sure why you would ever think that I support the Democrats.



Nem said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

Most votes do not win anywhere . All votes are the same. Everyone was counted. He got the majority of votes that counted. In fact, more electorates defected from Hilary than him. She was an awful unelectable candidate from the start(and that was 2008.not 2016)

 

Also, majority of voters did vote republican. 

Wrong. Very, very wrong.

Just cause you got a phony democracy don't project it to the ones that don't. Your 200 year old system is way past it's expery date. Not everyone failed to modernize.

Just because the electoral college is not a 100% democratic system doesn't mean that it's a bad system. Sure, I would like to have the system changed a bit such as winner of the state automatically receives 2 electoral votes (senators) with the rest divvied up proportionally (representatives). However, the electoral college was designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority. This is especially true when a large proportion of the population comes from urban areas that tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Voters in rural states such as Montana or the Dakotas have more "impact" in the general election, but it is so that their concerns aren't drowned out from sheer numbers.

And before you retort with "how about the tyranny of the minority!?", it is harder to win the electoral college if you don't get the majority or plurality of the popular vote. Yes, there have been a few presidents who won the electoral college without winning the popular vote, but it is not a common occurrence which would contradict the claim of "tyranny of the minority". And the presidents who won the general election without winning the popular vote did so because they appealed to enough groups of people rather than being over-reliant on one. For instance, Trump won over the working class as well as winning a higher proportion of the black, Hispanic, and Asian vote than Mitt Romney.



newwil7l said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

Sure. Don't let me crush your heart 

You can't just disagree when the facts are literally out there for you to see. Don't get your panties in a wad. Anyways the opposite is true for Midwestern states like Wisconsin, Illinois, Iowa, and Ohio. As more people leave the cities in these states the rural areas in them grow more of a voice. These states are getting more red at the same time that many sunbelt states are turning bluer.

Google McMullen and Johnston. Trump would have won more states and larger margins without them 



John2290 said:
DonFerrari said:

There are several forms of democracy, but certainly USA doesn't call itself a democracy even when saying they are the biggest one.  They are a federation based on constitutional republic.

And it's funny you complaining about democracy in USA coming from the country of Dictator Franco.

Franco would be a bit before his time but if he is Spanish. The recent business with Catalonia  might prove your point that there is more real Democracy in the US the the facade of democracy that shadows spain and the much of the EU. No bias here either, coming from an Irish man. 

A lot of his Portuguese population fled to Brazil during Franco's time, but I guess he prefered to play the smart-ass.

Nem said:
DonFerrari said:

There are several forms of democracy, but certainly USA doesn't call itself a democracy even when saying they are the biggest one.  They are a federation based on constitutional republic.

And it's funny you complaining about democracy in USA coming from the country of Dictator Franco.

Huh? The infamous american lack of geography knowledge rears it's ugly head again.

So pretty of you to attack my lack of geographical knowledge when you first ignored that A LOT of Porguese people fled to Brazil during Franco's time, that I'm brazilian and Spain and Portugal have had so many intermingle. And sure Portugal is such an advanced country and democracy right? But would you be happier if I had talked about Salazar? Sorry, but Franco was much more relevant.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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Aura7541 said:
Nem said:

Wrong. Very, very wrong.

Just cause you got a phony democracy don't project it to the ones that don't. Your 200 year old system is way past it's expery date. Not everyone failed to modernize.

Just because the electoral college is not a 100% democratic system doesn't mean that it's a bad system. Sure, I would like to have the system changed a bit such as winner of the state automatically receives 2 electoral votes (senators) with the rest divvied up proportionally (representatives). However, the electoral college was designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority. This is especially true when a large proportion of the population comes from urban areas that tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Voters in rural states such as Montana or the Dakotas have more "impact" in the general election, but it is so that their concerns aren't drowned out from sheer numbers.

And before you retort with "how about the tyranny of the minority!?", it is harder to win the electoral college if you don't get the majority or plurality of the popular vote. Yes, there have been a few presidents who won the electoral college without winning the popular vote, but it is not a common occurrence which would contradict the claim of "tyranny of the minority". And the presidents who won the general election without winning the popular vote did so because they appealed to enough groups of people rather than being over-reliant on one. For instance, Trump won over the working class as well as winning a higher proportion of the black, Hispanic, and Asian vote than Mitt Romney.

Tyranny of the majority is a nonsensical idea. If it's what the majority wants, by definition isn't tyranny. Tyranny is to opress the people. If the people are in a majority agreement it isn't tyranny. It's a ridiculous concept.

The fact that a rule was created to devalue the vote of some is what makes it non-democratic. The essence of democracy is that everyone has an equal voice, no matter the gender and the race aslong as they are mature enough age wise to exert it. Equality is the essence of democracy. Egalite, fraternite, liberte.

How terrible is the idea, that since one party gets more votes in an area that area should be worth less? It's a corrupt way gain power. The will of the people is what democracy is. If you corrupt that with these ridiculous sub rules to influence the results, it's no longer democracy. 

DonFerrari said:
John2290 said:

Franco would be a bit before his time but if he is Spanish. The recent business with Catalonia  might prove your point that there is more real Democracy in the US the the facade of democracy that shadows spain and the much of the EU. No bias here either, coming from an Irish man. 

A lot of his Portuguese population fled to Brazil during Franco's time, but I guess he prefered to play the smart-ass.

Nem said:

Huh? The infamous american lack of geography knowledge rears it's ugly head again.

So pretty of you to attack my lack of geographical knowledge when you first ignored that A LOT of

What does that have to do with the topic? 

First, Portugal is a much older country than the US, and it had a revolution to throw out Salazar's regime. It then created one of the best democratic systems in the world. There's only things to be proud of.

Second, you mean YOUR population fled to Brazil. Cause that's what your population is, mixed with locals. Though again, i don't see what this has to do with anything.

And finally third, i call you on your BS. Portugal was not an enemy of Spain. You talk about this immigration wave like it was gigantic, but in truth it hardly even registers in history books (and probably had more to do with WW2). I am pretty sure it doesn't compare to the immigration we see in the opposite direction these days.

Last edited by Nem - on 21 May 2018

Nem said:
Aura7541 said:

Just because the electoral college is not a 100% democratic system doesn't mean that it's a bad system. Sure, I would like to have the system changed a bit such as winner of the state automatically receives 2 electoral votes (senators) with the rest divvied up proportionally (representatives). However, the electoral college was designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority. This is especially true when a large proportion of the population comes from urban areas that tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Voters in rural states such as Montana or the Dakotas have more "impact" in the general election, but it is so that their concerns aren't drowned out from sheer numbers.

And before you retort with "how about the tyranny of the minority!?", it is harder to win the electoral college if you don't get the majority or plurality of the popular vote. Yes, there have been a few presidents who won the electoral college without winning the popular vote, but it is not a common occurrence which would contradict the claim of "tyranny of the minority". And the presidents who won the general election without winning the popular vote did so because they appealed to enough groups of people rather than being over-reliant on one. For instance, Trump won over the working class as well as winning a higher proportion of the black, Hispanic, and Asian vote than Mitt Romney.

Tyranny of the majority is a nonsensical idea. If it's what the majority wants, by definition isn't tyranny. Tyranny is to opress the people. If the people are in a majority agreement it isn't tyranny. It's a ridiculous concept.

The fact that a rule was created to devalue the vote of some is what makes it non-democratic. The essence of democracy is that everyone has an equal voice, no matter the gender and the race aslong as they are mature enough age wise to exert it. Equality is the essence of democracy. Egalite, fraternite, liberte.

How terrible is the idea, that since one party gets more votes in an area that area should be worth less? It's a corrupt way gain power. The will of the people is what democracy is. If you corrupt that with these ridiculous sub rules to influence the results, it's no longer democracy. 

DonFerrari said:

A lot of his Portuguese population fled to Brazil during Franco's time, but I guess he prefered to play the smart-ass.

So pretty of you to attack my lack of geographical knowledge when you first ignored that A LOT of

What does that have to do with the topic? 

First, Portugal is a much older country than the US, and it had a revolution to throw out Salazar's regime. It then created one of the best democratic systems in the world. There's only things to be proud of.

Second, you mean YOUR population fled to Brazil. Cause that's what your population is, mixed with locals. Though again, i don't see what this has to do with anything.

And finally third, i call you on your BS. Portugal was not an enemy of Spain. You talk about this immigration wave like it was gigantic, but in truth it hardly even registers in history books (and probably had more to do with WW2). I am pretty sure it doesn't compare to the immigration we see in the opposite direction these days.

So killing the Jews in German wasn't a tyranny against the minorities just because the majority accepted it? Coooool man. Having a equal voice is what made the electoral system, so that the concerns of minorities get equal opportunity to be heard.

1 - Sure portugal is much older, have made a lot of colonization and exploration, made a lot of war, a lot of mistakes... Salazar dictatorship didn't end until the end of the 70's... while USA "not democratic" have been running fine for over 200 years.

2 - Nope, I'm not descendant of Portuguese, and the Portuguese in question fled in the last century so not that much mixed as the ones you are implying from the colonization. That have to do with you demonizing USA democracy while Portugal have a child democracy compared to centuries of non-democracy. But if you so much want to know my ascendancy I'm 3/4 from ex-slaves (probably with some unknown portuguese and spanish blood in between) and 1/4 Italian.

3 - Call BS all you want, Portugal during the last 500 years have had several conflicts and antagonism with Spain. It may not register in your books, but in Brazil the wave of immigrants during Salazar and Franco regimes was quite expressive. I inclusively have a lot of friends of recent portuguese heritage.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Nem said:

Tyranny of the majority is a nonsensical idea. If it's what the majority wants, by definition isn't tyranny. Tyranny is to opress the people. If the people are in a majority agreement it isn't tyranny. It's a ridiculous concept.

The fact that a rule was created to devalue the vote of some is what makes it non-democratic. The essence of democracy is that everyone has an equal voice, no matter the gender and the race aslong as they are mature enough age wise to exert it. Equality is the essence of democracy. Egalite, fraternite, liberte.

How terrible is the idea, that since one party gets more votes in an area that area should be worth less? It's a corrupt way gain power. The will of the people is what democracy is. If you corrupt that with these ridiculous sub rules to influence the results, it's no longer democracy. 

What does that have to do with the topic? 

First, Portugal is a much older country than the US, and it had a revolution to throw out Salazar's regime. It then created one of the best democratic systems in the world. There's only things to be proud of.

Second, you mean YOUR population fled to Brazil. Cause that's what your population is, mixed with locals. Though again, i don't see what this has to do with anything.

And finally third, i call you on your BS. Portugal was not an enemy of Spain. You talk about this immigration wave like it was gigantic, but in truth it hardly even registers in history books (and probably had more to do with WW2). I am pretty sure it doesn't compare to the immigration we see in the opposite direction these days.

So killing the Jews in German wasn't a tyranny against the minorities just because the majority accepted it? Coooool man. Having a equal voice is what made the electoral system, so that the concerns of minorities get equal opportunity to be heard.

1 - Sure portugal is much older, have made a lot of colonization and exploration, made a lot of war, a lot of mistakes... Salazar dictatorship didn't end until the end of the 70's... while USA "not democratic" have been running fine for over 200 years.

2 - Nope, I'm not descendant of Portuguese, and the Portuguese in question fled in the last century so not that much mixed as the ones you are implying from the colonization. That have to do with you demonizing USA democracy while Portugal have a child democracy compared to centuries of non-democracy. But if you so much want to know my ascendancy I'm 3/4 from ex-slaves (probably with some unknown portuguese and spanish blood in between) and 1/4 Italian.

3 - Call BS all you want, Portugal during the last 500 years have had several conflicts and antagonism with Spain. It may not register in your books, but in Brazil the wave of immigrants during Salazar and Franco regimes was quite expressive. I inclusively have a lot of friends of recent portuguese heritage.

First, your example is ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a reply cause it's not even closely related.

In democracy, all voters get representatives in the assembly, including minorities. The president is their representative in the world and its chosen by majority.

I'm not gonna continue the other topic. It's off topic and it's just you trying to throw personal attacks at my valid criticism. But, i will say this, the US is a flawed democracy as it's catalogued today. It was never a democracy. It was and is a Republic.



Nem said:
DonFerrari said:

So killing the Jews in German wasn't a tyranny against the minorities just because the majority accepted it? Coooool man. Having a equal voice is what made the electoral system, so that the concerns of minorities get equal opportunity to be heard.

1 - Sure portugal is much older, have made a lot of colonization and exploration, made a lot of war, a lot of mistakes... Salazar dictatorship didn't end until the end of the 70's... while USA "not democratic" have been running fine for over 200 years.

2 - Nope, I'm not descendant of Portuguese, and the Portuguese in question fled in the last century so not that much mixed as the ones you are implying from the colonization. That have to do with you demonizing USA democracy while Portugal have a child democracy compared to centuries of non-democracy. But if you so much want to know my ascendancy I'm 3/4 from ex-slaves (probably with some unknown portuguese and spanish blood in between) and 1/4 Italian.

3 - Call BS all you want, Portugal during the last 500 years have had several conflicts and antagonism with Spain. It may not register in your books, but in Brazil the wave of immigrants during Salazar and Franco regimes was quite expressive. I inclusively have a lot of friends of recent portuguese heritage.

First, your example is ridiculous and doesn't even warrant a reply cause it's not even closely related.

In democracy, all voters get representatives in the assembly, including minorities. The president is their representative in the world and its chosen by majority.

I'm not gonna continue the other topic. It's off topic and it's just you trying to throw personal attacks at my valid criticism. But, i will say this, the US is a flawed democracy as it's catalogued today. It was never a democracy. It was and is a Republic.

I shall quote you them "Tyranny of the majority is a nonsensical idea. If it's what the majority wants, by definition isn't tyranny. Tyranny is to opress the people. If the people are in a majority agreement it isn't tyranny. It's a ridiculous concept." Now tell me that isn't what you said.... and the concept is the same, if the majority have agreed for you it isn't tyranny.

I know what a democracy is. USA doesn't say it is a democracy, I have already told you that. They are a constitutional republic.

Funny that you was the one throwing personnal attacks and now pretend to be attacked.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Nem said:
Aura7541 said:

Just because the electoral college is not a 100% democratic system doesn't mean that it's a bad system. Sure, I would like to have the system changed a bit such as winner of the state automatically receives 2 electoral votes (senators) with the rest divvied up proportionally (representatives). However, the electoral college was designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority. This is especially true when a large proportion of the population comes from urban areas that tend to vote overwhelmingly Democrat. Voters in rural states such as Montana or the Dakotas have more "impact" in the general election, but it is so that their concerns aren't drowned out from sheer numbers.

And before you retort with "how about the tyranny of the minority!?", it is harder to win the electoral college if you don't get the majority or plurality of the popular vote. Yes, there have been a few presidents who won the electoral college without winning the popular vote, but it is not a common occurrence which would contradict the claim of "tyranny of the minority". And the presidents who won the general election without winning the popular vote did so because they appealed to enough groups of people rather than being over-reliant on one. For instance, Trump won over the working class as well as winning a higher proportion of the black, Hispanic, and Asian vote than Mitt Romney.

Tyranny of the majority is a nonsensical idea. If it's what the majority wants, by definition isn't tyranny. Tyranny is to opress the people. If the people are in a majority agreement it isn't tyranny. It's a ridiculous concept.

The fact that a rule was created to devalue the vote of some is what makes it non-democratic. The essence of democracy is that everyone has an equal voice, no matter the gender and the race aslong as they are mature enough age wise to exert it. Equality is the essence of democracy. Egalite, fraternite, liberte.

How terrible is the idea, that since one party gets more votes in an area that area should be worth less? It's a corrupt way gain power. The will of the people is what democracy is. If you corrupt that with these ridiculous sub rules to influence the results, it's no longer democracy. 


If you're refuting the idea of tyranny of the majority through pedantic semantics, then you don't have an argument to begin with. Okay, so what if I change it to the technically correct term, ochlocracy of the majority? How about you use that semantics argument again and see what happens.

50.1% is technically a majority and what the 50.1% wants may not be best for the other 49.9%. In fact, the majority may work to harm the minority which would lead to an unstable society and government. This is especially true if the majority shifts frequently. In addition, arguments against an outright democracy are valid as there are concerns of people voting along collectivist lines. The reason why voters from rural states have a higher proportion of "voting power" is because it prevents urban voters from smothering them via large numbers. A democracy also allows the majority ethnic group to throw its weight around minority ethnic groups whereas it is more difficult in a republic system. In addition, democracy only considers the equality of voice into consideration, but not the collective intelligence of mass into consideration. The disregard of the collective intelligence can lead to detrimental effects such as the religious fundamentalism in Pakistan or the sterilization of women with so-called 'mental defects' or of 'mixed race' in Sweden during the 1900s. I mean, feel free to repeat that slogan, but if you think that's viable substitute for a valid argument, meh.

All I am seeing from your arguments is you explain why you personally prefer democracy. However, you have not adequately explained why democracy is a better system than a republic. For example, I already explained why rural states in the US have proportionally higher voting power, but from you, it's just "No, it's bad! It's corrupt! It's not democracy, therefore it's bad!"