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Forums - Politics Discussion - You can't believe trump won?

 

Trump 2020

Hell yes! 20 25.32%
 
Lets wait and see! 3 3.80%
 
Fuck no! 50 63.29%
 
Indifferent/comments/Hilary's dusty pussy... 6 7.59%
 
Total:79
Maxosaurus-rex said:
Mr_Destiny said:

Would it be fair if Ginsburg dies in 2020, and the Democrats have taken the Senate, they block any Trump nominee? What about 2019? No president's SC choice had been universally blocked before the GOP did so with Obama.

LOL, you might want to check a history book. 

Yes, some nominees were rejected in previous presidencies. I do not dispute that. When I say "universally blocked," I mean Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell literally said they would not accept any Obama nominee, period. Nixon, Reagan, W, LBJ, etc. all had at least one of their nominees voted down or withdrawn, but eventually got another nominee confirmed. The GOP Senate would never have voted on any Obama nominee--that's what made it unprecedented.

 

If the Dems take back the Senate, I'd support them holding a seat open for the 2020 presidential winner to "get back" at the GOP. But after that, this nominee nonsense needs to stop.



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Mr_Destiny said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

LOL, you might want to check a history book. 

Yes, some nominees were rejected in previous presidencies. I do not dispute that. When I say "universally blocked," I mean Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell literally said they would not accept any Obama nominee, period. Nixon, Reagan, W, LBJ, etc. all had at least one of their nominees voted down or withdrawn, but eventually got another nominee confirmed. The GOP Senate would never have voted on any Obama nominee--that's what made it unprecedented.

 

If the Dems take back the Senate, I'd support them holding a seat open for the 2020 presidential winner to "get back" at the GOP. But after that, this nominee nonsense needs to stop.

It wasn't unprecedented. Even Harry Reid said senate has no duty to consider a SC nominee 



Aura7541 said:
Nem said:

The point of the majority is for a decision to be made. There's no tyranny if it's the popular vote. How more legitimate can it be? If the majority can't decide without being called tyrants, who can make decisions? A council whose election is subject to all kinds of backdoor deals? The will of the people (when not falsified) is the legitimate decision.

Thank you for not addressing a single one of my counterarguments and give me another opening for me to shoot down more of these assertions. For instance, you continue to go on with your semantics argument when I easily refuted that by altering the tyranny of the majority phrase. Let us look up the definition of ochlocracy, shall we? Ochlocracy is the rule of government mob or a mass of people, or colloquially referred to as mob rule. When people say tyranny of the majority, the majority (in the phrase, not the majority, in general) is tyrannical because of the authoritarian similarities between mob rule and an actual tyranny.

You asserted that there is no tyranny in a popular vote, but I already given you two examples of where the tyranny of the majority led to detrimental effects. Turning your eyes away from the flaws of a plain democracy does not help your argument, just so you know. The majority does not always think best for the country nor will it always not do harm to the minority. That is a legitimate (see how I'm using this word correctly?) weakness of a democracy hence why there are other systems that try to address these weaknesses. The presidential election and the electoral college (though I disagree with the winner-take-all system) is one way to address that. But hey, "It's not a true democracy! Therefore, you're against freedom and equality!" Speaking of which...

 

Afraid of what the people say? Then you don't defend democracy. Don't defend that some people's vote should be worth more than others. THAT is tyranny.

Honestly, if you don't defend equality and freedom, you don't defend democracy.

If you are talking about representation, the presidential election is not where that happens, nor needs to be. You got representatives on your senate.

This is quite a feeble attempt at character assassination and also a gross misrepresentation of what I've been saying. Here is what I said: "A democracy also allows the majority ethnic group to throw its weight around minority ethnic groups whereas it is more difficult in a republic system. In addition, democracy only considers the equality of voice into consideration, but not the collective intelligence of mass into consideration." Now show me where I said that some people's votes should be worth more than others. Or are you just going to retort with "Oh, I can't even..." or "How dare you..."?

To add more to my arguments, republicanism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. A republic can use many aspects of democracy as what the US does. The advantages that a republic offers is that it contains a bill of rights or a constitution. There is an established set of rules and rights that cannot be broken nor infringed while operating under a democratic system. An outright democracy lacks these necessary restrictions that disallow the majority from abusing power over the minority.

Ok, i see your issue. That is not something that i consider because i don't see my own country as ethnic A trying to screw Ethnic B or exterior trying to screw interior.

In an educated Country, everyone votes for the best of the country in their own view. Even if they vote selfishly that is legitimate. It is their right. It is democratic and equal. The majority wins and their decision is legitimate. If the people change their mind later, they elect someone else to change/revert that decision.

Though honestly, in my country there's countermeasures to that in the constitution. You can't make stupid laws like the examples you gave. They have to be legal.

Again, tyranny of the majority is something that can only happen in a country that probably shouldn't be a country. If your people's are actively trying to destroy each other, then you got a more fundamental problem to solve, or you know... make a better constitution that doesn't allow that without robbing people of their equality right.

 

I didn't say republic and democracy are mutually exclusive. Of course they are not. I said that the US is not a democracy (or at least a flawed one), wich we all know to be true and that i wish they stopped passing themselves as such. Wich they have since WW1. Or you know... actually improve the outdated 2 century old system to something more democratic so we can actually not cringe at the values of democracy being thrown in the mud.



Maxosaurus-rex said:
Mr_Destiny said:

Yes, some nominees were rejected in previous presidencies. I do not dispute that. When I say "universally blocked," I mean Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell literally said they would not accept any Obama nominee, period. Nixon, Reagan, W, LBJ, etc. all had at least one of their nominees voted down or withdrawn, but eventually got another nominee confirmed. The GOP Senate would never have voted on any Obama nominee--that's what made it unprecedented.

 

If the Dems take back the Senate, I'd support them holding a seat open for the 2020 presidential winner to "get back" at the GOP. But after that, this nominee nonsense needs to stop.

It wasn't unprecedented. Even Harry Reid said senate has no duty to consider a SC nominee 

Saying and doing are two different things. Under GWB, Reid did try a filibuster against Alito even though he knew he didn't have the votes--he got confirmed. 22 Dems voted for Roberts--he got confirmed. They could have blocked them from getting 60 votes but didn't. Nothing close to Garland's situation had ever occurred, so it definitely falls under the definition of unprecedented.



Nem said:

Ok, i see your issue. That is not something that i consider because i don't see my own country as ethnic A trying to screw Ethnic B or exterior trying to screw interior.

In an educated Country, everyone votes for the best of the country in their own view. Even if they vote selfishly that is legitimate. It is their right. It is democratic and equal. The majority wins and their decision is legitimate. If the people change their mind later, they elect someone else to change/revert that decision.

Though honestly, in my country there's countermeasures to that in the constitution. You can't make stupid laws like the examples you gave. They have to be legal.

Again, tyranny of the majority is something that can only happen in a country that probably shouldn't be a country. If your people's are actively trying to destroy each other, then you got a more fundamental problem to solve, or you know... make a better constitution that doesn't allow that without robbing people of their equality right.

 

I didn't say republic and democracy are mutually exclusive. Of course they are not. I said that the US is not a democracy (or at least a flawed one), wich we all know to be true and that i wish they stopped passing themselves as such. Wich they have since WW1. Or you know... actually improve the outdated 2 century old system to something more democratic so we can actually not cringe at the values of democracy being thrown in the mud.

However, you haven't proposed any suggestions to improve what you called an outdated 2 century-old system. I already mentioned one: in the presidential election, winner of the state automatically wins two electoral votes (senate) with the rest divvied up proportionally by the state popular or district vote (representatives). In addition, the United States is a union of sovereign states. Each state has its own government that serve its state citizens. Deciding who is president by the popular vote would actually undermine the democratic process of the states. This is another reason why the electoral college is utilized. As a matter of fact, two states use the system that I suggested: Maine and Nebraska. Those states went with the proportional system over the winner-take-all system via the democratic process. Want to improve the electoral college? Convince the other states to change the way the electoral votes are distributed.

Here's another solution I propose. Stop gerrymandering. It's a cheap tactic both political parties to win their state, congressional, and gubernatorial elections. If district lines need to be changed, then it should preferably be done by an independent non-partisan entity.

And one last thing. The US runs on a constitutional republic that uses democratic processes. It was never claimed to be a democracy and anyone who claims the country to be one does not understand how the US government works.



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Mr_Destiny said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

It wasn't unprecedented. Even Harry Reid said senate has no duty to consider a SC nominee 

Saying and doing are two different things. Under GWB, Reid did try a filibuster against Alito even though he knew he didn't have the votes--he got confirmed. 22 Dems voted for Roberts--he got confirmed. They could have blocked them from getting 60 votes but didn't. Nothing close to Garland's situation had ever occurred, so it definitely falls under the definition of unprecedented.

Google "is blah blah blah unprecedented"

The answer is no. The thought that Senate will not consider lame duck nominations is long standing

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/senate-obama-merrick-garland-supreme-court-nominee/482733/

 

Critics—who concede that the Senate can refuse to approve Supreme Court nominations—argue for an atextual requirement that the Senate must refuse its consent through  formal procedures. But nothing in the Constitution requires this, and the Senate’s longstanding practice has included many failures to take formal action on nominees.

https://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/text-of-senator-schumers-speech

Second, for the rest of this President’s term and if there is another Republican elected with the same selection criteria let me say this:

 

We should reverse the presumption of confirmation.  The Supreme Court is dangerously out of balance.  We cannot afford to see Justice Stevens replaced by another Roberts; or Justice Ginsburg by another Alito.

 

Given the track record of this President and the experience of obfuscation at the hearings, with respect to the Supreme Court, at least:  I will recommend to my colleagues that we should not confirm a Supreme Court nominee EXCEPT in extraordinary circumstances

 

Chuckie Schumer

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/history-political-fights-over-supreme-court-seats/

 


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/history-stolen-supreme-court-seats-180962589/

 

“There is this tendency to view history through rose-colored glasses from time to time, and to suggest we’ve never been this political,” says Charles Gardner Geyh, a law professor at Indiana University and author of the 2008 book When Courts and Congress Collide. “In reality, we have always had a highly politicized selection process.” Several times in the 1800s, Geyh says, “the Senate certainly appears to have delayed with an eye toward saving the nomination for the next president.”

Last edited by Maxosaurus-rex - on 21 May 2018

Mr_Destiny said:
Maxosaurus-rex said:

LOL, you might want to check a history book. 

Yes, some nominees were rejected in previous presidencies. I do not dispute that. When I say "universally blocked," I mean Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell literally said they would not accept any Obama nominee, period. Nixon, Reagan, W, LBJ, etc. all had at least one of their nominees voted down or withdrawn, but eventually got another nominee confirmed. The GOP Senate would never have voted on any Obama nominee--that's what made it unprecedented.

 

If the Dems take back the Senate, I'd support them holding a seat open for the 2020 presidential winner to "get back" at the GOP. But after that, this nominee nonsense needs to stop.

So you want to operate politics on the means of revenges?



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Aura7541 said:
Nem said:

Ok, i see your issue. That is not something that i consider because i don't see my own country as ethnic A trying to screw Ethnic B or exterior trying to screw interior.

In an educated Country, everyone votes for the best of the country in their own view. Even if they vote selfishly that is legitimate. It is their right. It is democratic and equal. The majority wins and their decision is legitimate. If the people change their mind later, they elect someone else to change/revert that decision.

Though honestly, in my country there's countermeasures to that in the constitution. You can't make stupid laws like the examples you gave. They have to be legal.

Again, tyranny of the majority is something that can only happen in a country that probably shouldn't be a country. If your people's are actively trying to destroy each other, then you got a more fundamental problem to solve, or you know... make a better constitution that doesn't allow that without robbing people of their equality right.

 

I didn't say republic and democracy are mutually exclusive. Of course they are not. I said that the US is not a democracy (or at least a flawed one), wich we all know to be true and that i wish they stopped passing themselves as such. Wich they have since WW1. Or you know... actually improve the outdated 2 century old system to something more democratic so we can actually not cringe at the values of democracy being thrown in the mud.

However, you haven't proposed any suggestions to improve what you called an outdated 2 century-old system. I already mentioned one: in the presidential election, winner of the state automatically wins two electoral votes (senate) with the rest divvied up proportionally by the state popular or district vote (representatives). In addition, the United States is a union of sovereign states. Each state has its own government that serve its state citizens. Deciding who is president by the popular vote would actually undermine the democratic process of the states. This is another reason why the electoral college is utilized. As a matter of fact, two states use the system that I suggested: Maine and Nebraska. Those states went with the proportional system over the winner-take-all system via the democratic process. Want to improve the electoral college? Convince the other states to change the way the electoral votes are distributed.

Here's another solution I propose. Stop gerrymandering. It's a cheap tactic both political parties to win their state, congressional, and gubernatorial elections. If district lines need to be changed, then it should preferably be done by an independent non-partisan entity.

And one last thing. The US runs on a constitutional republic that uses democratic processes. It was never claimed to be a democracy and anyone who claims the country to be one does not understand how the US government works.

It's not my place to fix the american system. I'm pointing out the major flaw, but i'm not an american, the solution shouldn't come from me. Of course, i think the Portuguese model is the best one i've seen (not because i was born there. Theres more decent ones across europe. But the Portuguese one is modern and has all sorts of systems to safeguard equality, liberty and justice), but i know how american's behave when you try to tell them what is right. So, i'd rather they get there by themselves.

Your suggestions are steps in the right direction, but imo, equality is only achieved when every vote is worth the same. The electoral college system, should be done away with. Let the people elect their representitive directly.

The last point, you can't honestly believe. The US has clamored itself as one of the world's leading democracies. This is not my opinion, it has been such since WW1 and WW2. That is how the allied forces tried to differentiate themselves from the germanic alliances. 



Trump was elected as President by mistake clearly indicates the American political system is broken and change is needed. Protest votes and Trump becomes elected as President as a consequence.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Trump was elected as President by mistake clearly indicates the American political system is broken and change is needed. Protest votes and Trump becomes elected as President as a consequence.

Protest votes hurt trump. Please tell me you don't believe any of this