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Why is the United States so segregated?

Forums - Politics Discussion - Why is the United States so segregated?

the-pi-guy said:
VAMatt said:

All government should get out of the picture.  Government at all levels has proven to be very bad at educating, relative to the private sector.  They provide, in many cases, one-size-fits-none garbage that only meets the official standards because they cheat test scores on behalf of students.  Government schools regularly push students through the system without educating them.  It is a sick joke.  Or, it would be, if it was funny.  But, its not funny.  It's fucked up.  They literally force people to pay for something, then they do not provide it.  Its robbery, plain as day.  You or I, or a group of us from VGC would be put in prison if we opened a school, forced the people in the neighborhood to pay for it, forced them to go to it, and gave them diplomas based on fake test scores.  For some reason, we allow government to continue doing this to people.  Worse yet, not only do we allow it.  Some of us push for government to take an even bigger role.  

I want people to get a quality education.  That's why I oppose government schools.  

And yet Public schools on average outperform private schools.

But keep pushing propaganda.  

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/19/public-private-schools_n_6715050.html

You should read that article.  It doesn't say what you think it says. 

 



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VAMatt said:
the-pi-guy said:

And yet Public schools on average outperform private schools.

But keep pushing propaganda.  

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/19/public-private-schools_n_6715050.html

You should read that article.  It doesn't say what you think it says. 

 

Public schools were actually outperforming demographically similar private schools,” Lubienski said. “When we look at similar students in the different types of schools, in mathematics anyways, kids in public schools are, on average, performing at a level higher than students at charter or private schools.”

So, if not a better education, what exactly does a child get from an expensive private education? University of Wisconsin-Madison professor Gloria Ladson-Billings suggested that it’s more about the lasting connections one can forge at a private institution.

It looks like it says exactly what I thought it said.  


the-pi-guy said:
VAMatt said:

You should read that article.  It doesn't say what you think it says. 

 

Public schools were actually outperforming demographically similar private schools,” Lubienski said. “When we look at similar students in the different types of schools, in mathematics anyways, kids in public schools are, on average, performing at a level higher than students at charter or private schools.”

So, if not a better education, what exactly does a child get from an expensive private education? University of Wisconsin-Madison professor Gloria Ladson-Billings suggested that it’s more about the lasting connections one can forge at a private institution.

It looks like it says exactly what I thought it said.  

Math only, as stated in the article.  Its based on a book that made a big splash a few years ago.  That books was largely debunked.  

The biggest error is that it compares good public schools to private schools.  Good public schools are not the problem.  The problem is that there are a shitload of bad public schools.  And people are forced to pay for them and forced to go to them. 

The problem is not money, as some of the worst public schools spend far more than average, per pupil.  So, more government money cannot fix the problem.  We've been trying that for 25 years or more.  

Anyway, if you want me to do a Google search and post some headlines that support my case, I can do so.  But, frankly, I'm not here to argue.  I've spent most of my adult life working to reduce poverty, reduce government's role in education, and otherwise improve the lives of the poorest among us.  I will continue to do so.  Your position on education - or, what I assume your position to be - is in support of keeping poor people trapped in a life of ignorance and poverty.  Do a little research about public school funding, spending per pupil, and demographics.  You'll see.   



VAMatt said:

The biggest error is that it compares good public schools to private schools.  Good public schools are not the problem.  The problem is that there are a shitload of bad public schools.  And people are forced to pay for them and forced to go to them.  

The problem is not money, as some of the worst public schools spend far more than average, per pupil.  So, more government money cannot fix the problem.  We've been trying that for 25 years or more.  

Anyway, if you want me to do a Google search and post some headlines that support my case, I can do so.  But, frankly, I'm not here to argue.  I've spent most of my adult life working to reduce poverty, reduce government's role in education, and otherwise improve the lives of the poorest among us.  I will continue to do so.  Your position on education - or, what I assume your position to be - is in support of keeping poor people trapped in a life of ignorance and poverty.  Do a little research about public school funding, spending per pupil, and demographics.  You'll see.   

There are plenty of bad private schools too.  Many private schools are run by churches, they aren't there to make students the bestest and the smartest.  

There's a pretty good link between funding and scores:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/economy/2018/02/08/geographic-disparity-states-best-and-worst-schools/1079181001/

https://www1.udel.edu/johnmack/research/school_funding.pdf



the-pi-guy said:
VAMatt said:

The biggest error is that it compares good public schools to private schools.  Good public schools are not the problem.  The problem is that there are a shitload of bad public schools.  And people are forced to pay for them and forced to go to them.  

The problem is not money, as some of the worst public schools spend far more than average, per pupil.  So, more government money cannot fix the problem.  We've been trying that for 25 years or more.  

Anyway, if you want me to do a Google search and post some headlines that support my case, I can do so.  But, frankly, I'm not here to argue.  I've spent most of my adult life working to reduce poverty, reduce government's role in education, and otherwise improve the lives of the poorest among us.  I will continue to do so.  Your position on education - or, what I assume your position to be - is in support of keeping poor people trapped in a life of ignorance and poverty.  Do a little research about public school funding, spending per pupil, and demographics.  You'll see.   

There are plenty of bad private schools too.  Many private schools are run by churches, they aren't there to make students the bestest and the smartest.  

There's a pretty good link between funding and scores:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/economy/2018/02/08/geographic-disparity-states-best-and-worst-schools/1079181001/

https://www1.udel.edu/johnmack/research/school_funding.pdf

There certainly are lots of bad religious schools.  In fact, one could argue that a religious school is automatically bad, as they teach stuff that is demonstrably false.  That doesn't make public schools good.  

And, yeah, scores - there are constant scandals of shitty schools cheating test scores.  But, more importantly than that, public schools in general are know for "teaching to the test", rather than providing a well rounded education.  If you ever talk to parents of kids that go to for-profit schools (to distinguish them from religious schools), ask them why they chose private school over public.  Almost always, those parents will say that one of the top reasons is the breadth and depth of the education their kids receive.   In other words, they get a *bigger* education than they could get in public school.  



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VAMatt said:
SpokenTruth said:

But government (federal) is only responsible for about 10% of a school's budget.  The rest is state and local (property taxes).  Getting the federal government out of the picture would only harm the poor schools because they help add some balance to the local property tax imbalance.

All government should get out of the picture.  Government at all levels has proven to be very bad at educating, relative to the private sector.  They provide, in many cases, one-size-fits-none garbage that only meets the official standards because they cheat test scores on behalf of students.  Government schools regularly push students through the system without educating them.  It is a sick joke.  Or, it would be, if it was funny.  But, its not funny.  It's fucked up.  They literally force people to pay for something, then they do not provide it.  Its robbery, plain as day.  You or I, or a group of us from VGC would be put in prison if we opened a school, forced the people in the neighborhood to pay for it, forced them to go to it, and gave them diplomas based on fake test scores.  For some reason, we allow government to continue doing this to people.  Worse yet, not only do we allow it.  Some of us push for government to take an even bigger role.  

I want people to get a quality education.  That's why I oppose government schools.  

And with the free market it's a race to the bottom to see who can make school as cheap to maintain as possible while the good schools are exorbitantly expensive so that the poor people get shit and the rich families get top-tier education. 



  


I swear, it seems like every other day there has to be a thread by someone outside the US or someone who has "lived here" to ask or tell us why the US is X, Y or Z.  The whole country (300 million diverse people from all over the world) gets to be lumped together and branded by the word of the day because somebody read an article this morning about an incident that must indicate that racism is literally taking place on every block as least once per day.  I wonder how many other countries as diverse as the US get along in perfect harmony?

You know what I think?  Japan is full of Japanese people, how many Hispanic people are in Japan?  Bunch of fucking racists, how dare they control their immigration and have a majority of people, good thing anybody that moves there is never ever once been exposed to any type of bias, and they don't hate black people or to this day depict black people in racist caricatures, nope don't go to youtube looking for that stuff cause it doesn't exist!  Seriously, why isn't Japan or China opening up it's borders?  Good thing all those countries around Syria (who mostly share the same religious beliefs) accepted all those refugees because we know the US wouldn't take them, bunch of racist white Christian men, even though they have the most diverse racial marriages of any religion, it make me sick!

Same goes for the whole of the Middle East, why all my Christian and Jewish friends are free to worship and are never slaughtered or have their places of worship burned to the ground and their priests beheaded, never happened.  No, racism and segregation is only a modern US problem

Amazing how many diverse people identify as American, but if you are from just about any other country, their is a uniform race and ethnicity that 90% + would look like, or genetically how much they have in common.  I wonder if other countries were as open to immigrants as the US, if those countries would fare better in regards to "racism".   And yet it's amazing how much KILLING goes on between countries and races that are very close together, Russia and Ukraine, N. and S. Korea, Saudi Arabia and Iran, etc.  

Alright that's enough sarcasm, yeah their is racism in the US along with the rest of the world.  America is not a hive mind, the world isn't perfect and people can choose not to accept others.  It's a lot easier when you have a country that is older, not into opening it's borders to other cultures, and where everyone is the same race to find racism is less frequent because duh.  I'd rather be an immigrant to the US any day than immigrate to most of the rest of the world and do half as well or live half as long and all this "racism" doesn't seem to affect the amount of people that want to come here.  



revinit said:
Slade6alpha said:
I'm sure the President and his demeanor doesn't help.

Actually, there were more racially motivated violent acts during Obama's presidency than there were at any time since the 1960's. Trump haters are going to blame EVERYTHING on Trump, no matter how ridiculous it it sounds. It's just what haters do.

As you Obama haters have done since he took office.



SpokenTruth said:
Arminillo said:

So if Ben Carson becomes president, its all good?

Well qualified is implied.  We currently do not have one well qualified and I don't want another one.

DonFerrari said:

Yes the government manage education so well... that must be the reason why every single politician promises to correct education.

Don't remember a single time I saw any private school having to promise yearly that they would improve their standard.

The US Department of Education does not create curriculum or address local budgets.  All that is done at the state and local levels.  Private schools establish their own curriculum and their budgets are tuition based (mostly) with little federal, state or local involvement.

So state and municipalities aren't government? I could swear they collect taxes and expend it.

the-pi-guy said:
DonFerrari said:

Yes the government manage education so well... that must be the reason why every single politician promises to correct education.

Don't remember a single time I saw any private school having to promise yearly that they would improve their standard.

The government hardly does anything for schools. Public schools in the US are run by the cities that try their best to run with whatever budget they have.  

The reason why private schools dont promise because private schools don't have to have standards.  Even when they are doing bad, they don't have to be held accountable.  

Even individual public schools aren't usually held accountable.  It's the problem with the entirety that usually gets talked about improving, including private schools.  

Read above, all levels of government are government.

Private school deliver what they deliver and families are either happy with the result or look for another option, and while at that they aren't forced to pay anything they aren't using.

VAMatt said:
the-pi-guy said:

There are plenty of bad private schools too.  Many private schools are run by churches, they aren't there to make students the bestest and the smartest.  

There's a pretty good link between funding and scores:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/economy/2018/02/08/geographic-disparity-states-best-and-worst-schools/1079181001/

https://www1.udel.edu/johnmack/research/school_funding.pdf

There certainly are lots of bad religious schools.  In fact, one could argue that a religious school is automatically bad, as they teach stuff that is demonstrably false.  That doesn't make public schools good.  

And, yeah, scores - there are constant scandals of shitty schools cheating test scores.  But, more importantly than that, public schools in general are know for "teaching to the test", rather than providing a well rounded education.  If you ever talk to parents of kids that go to for-profit schools (to distinguish them from religious schools), ask them why they chose private school over public.  Almost always, those parents will say that one of the top reasons is the breadth and depth of the education their kids receive.   In other words, they get a *bigger* education than they could get in public school.  

And if the private school isn't found to be good for their kids they will move to another.

MegaManX said:

I swear, it seems like every other day there has to be a thread by someone outside the US or someone who has "lived here" to ask or tell us why the US is X, Y or Z.  The whole country (300 million diverse people from all over the world) gets to be lumped together and branded by the word of the day because somebody read an article this morning about an incident that must indicate that racism is literally taking place on every block as least once per day.  I wonder how many other countries as diverse as the US get along in perfect harmony?

You know what I think?  Japan is full of Japanese people, how many Hispanic people are in Japan?  Bunch of fucking racists, how dare they control their immigration and have a majority of people, good thing anybody that moves there is never ever once been exposed to any type of bias, and they don't hate black people or to this day depict black people in racist caricatures, nope don't go to youtube looking for that stuff cause it doesn't exist!  Seriously, why isn't Japan or China opening up it's borders?  Good thing all those countries around Syria (who mostly share the same religious beliefs) accepted all those refugees because we know the US wouldn't take them, bunch of racist white Christian men, even though they have the most diverse racial marriages of any religion, it make me sick!

Same goes for the whole of the Middle East, why all my Christian and Jewish friends are free to worship and are never slaughtered or have their places of worship burned to the ground and their priests beheaded, never happened.  No, racism and segregation is only a modern US problem

Amazing how many diverse people identify as American, but if you are from just about any other country, their is a uniform race and ethnicity that 90% + would look like, or genetically how much they have in common.  I wonder if other countries were as open to immigrants as the US, if those countries would fare better in regards to "racism".   And yet it's amazing how much KILLING goes on between countries and races that are very close together, Russia and Ukraine, N. and S. Korea, Saudi Arabia and Iran, etc.  

Alright that's enough sarcasm, yeah their is racism in the US along with the rest of the world.  America is not a hive mind, the world isn't perfect and people can choose not to accept others.  It's a lot easier when you have a country that is older, not into opening it's borders to other cultures, and where everyone is the same race to find racism is less frequent because duh.  I'd rather be an immigrant to the US any day than immigrate to most of the rest of the world and do half as well or live half as long and all this "racism" doesn't seem to affect the amount of people that want to come here.  

Guess you didn't really read the OP.

And also, OP nor anyone on this thread have said that the countries you cited aren't full of racism.



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VAMatt said:
SpokenTruth said:

But government (federal) is only responsible for about 10% of a school's budget.  The rest is state and local (property taxes).  Getting the federal government out of the picture would only harm the poor schools because they help add some balance to the local property tax imbalance.

All government should get out of the picture.  Government at all levels has proven to be very bad at educating, relative to the private sector.  They provide, in many cases, one-size-fits-none garbage that only meets the official standards because they cheat test scores on behalf of students.  Government schools regularly push students through the system without educating them.  It is a sick joke.  Or, it would be, if it was funny.  But, its not funny.  It's fucked up.  They literally force people to pay for something, then they do not provide it.  Its robbery, plain as day.  You or I, or a group of us from VGC would be put in prison if we opened a school, forced the people in the neighborhood to pay for it, forced them to go to it, and gave them diplomas based on fake test scores.  For some reason, we allow government to continue doing this to people.  Worse yet, not only do we allow it.  Some of us push for government to take an even bigger role.  

I want people to get a quality education.  That's why I oppose government schools.  

Charter and private schools have their own caveats.  I can list 4 in my area that shut down mid year with no warning to parents or students because they didn't make enough money.  

I agree that our education system is outdated, underfunded (low teacher pay and lack of school supplies) and impractical (the one size fits all model is ridiculous as any teacher will tell you).  I'd suggest we look toward Japan and the Scandinavian countries for a complete overhaul of the whole thing.  I personally would love to see more of a Reggio Emilia approach.

DonFerrari said:
SpokenTruth said:

Well qualified is implied.  We currently do not have one well qualified and I don't want another one.

The US Department of Education does not create curriculum or address local budgets.  All that is done at the state and local levels.  Private schools establish their own curriculum and their budgets are tuition based (mostly) with little federal, state or local involvement.

So state and municipalities aren't government? I could swear they collect taxes and expend it.

If you read further in the thread, you'll note I make a distinction between federal, state and local governments. But you mentioned politicians promising to fix education which is, ironically, a promise you usually hear from federal level candidates.



Trump and truth are parted shores bisected by a vast sea of spin, dodge and alt-facts.