deskpro2k3 said: Getting a gun should be like getting a drivers license. |
Not acceptable.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
deskpro2k3 said: Getting a gun should be like getting a drivers license. |
Not acceptable.
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
RolStoppable said:
The statement you quote says "a well regulated militia." Why is that part not important? |
It's explaining the reason we need the amendment.
It is saying that the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, because a well regulated militia is necessary for a free state.
Let me give you a recent example: literally this week China has just declared that Xi can be the President of China for a lifetime. https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/emperor-xi-china-gambles-on-return-to-lifetime-rule-9991724
China doesn't have the right to bear arms, so this is their defense against a rogue state:
(Jeff Widener, Associated Press)
The second amendment has NOTHING to do with self defense or hunting. It has EVERYTHING to do with defending ourselves from a possible rogue government.
WolfpackN64 said:
Can you structure your argument more clearly? I don't see the point you're trying to make. |
I have two points.
1. This school schooting was 100% the fault of the police, FBI, ect for not doing anything. They all seemed to know this kid was messed up and trouble and yet nothing was done. His method of killing is not the problem, the problem was knowing a killing would happen and ignoring it.
2. The slippery slope is what a slippery slope always is. Think of DLC/microtransactions. In the start they were little things and slowly it has become worse and worse. Even when you have huge outcry like EA battlefront, they still sell millions and micros are not going away. Same with laws. Think of gun laws. Lets say their is a shooting and they ban automatic weapons. Then next shooting they ban silencers. Then next shooting they ban semi-auto's. then next shooting they ban shotguns, ect. It's a common thing to do. you know you can't ban something or implement something all at once, so you take baby steps.
It's the classic situation where you don't care until they finally come after you. I'm sure you would laugh, scoff or get angry whenever someone comes out and tries to blame video games for violence. But that is what I'm talking about. They ban guns finally. You don't care cause you don't have any guns. Violence still persists, so they ban knives. Again you don't care cause you don't have knives. Violence still persists, so they then ban violence on tv, movies and video games. Now you care and are complaining that they are coming after you and that video game and movies don't cause violence.
BTW, I do blame video games and movies more than guns for violence. Guns, bombs or weapons of any kind are just tools. It's a mental thing that makes one do violence. is that video games or movies? Sure for some. It could also be NRA meetings, church, parents, friends influence, facebook post, movie, book, ect. All those things and more influence a persons thinking, mentality, character, ect. A gun is just a tool. An effective tool, but a tool non the less. Think of Nuclear energy. It can be used to power a city, or it can be used to reduce it to ashes. It all depends on the person who is using it's motives. The splitting of atoms itself is not the enemy.
RolStoppable said:
I understand that you need to bear arms, but if you truly believe in the validity of the second amendment, you need to live by "a well regulated militia" as well instead of dismissing it as unimportant. "Well regulated" means basic things like, "That guy is an idiot and cannot be trusted, so he shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Because if push comes to shove, chances are good that he will hurt one of us instead of the enemy." |
All well and good in theory, but how easy is it to imagine this scenario.
1. We have a school shooting in florida and dozens die. Shooter was mentally deranged and should have never had a gun. (this is true and what just happened)
2. We increase gun regulation to help further prevent unfit people from owning a gun. (Sounds great. Common sense)
3. School shooting involving a mentally deranged person that the system missed somehow. (Totally plausible. Hell the current situation, the FBI was told TWICE about this shooter and did nothing)
4. Due to the new provisions not working, more strict measure put into place such as banning certain guns. (Not all guns, but just one or two)
5. Go back to #1 and rinse and repeat until finally all guns are banned.
Many people would celebrate this happening. And as Star Wars put it so eloquently. So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause. Say what you want about the prequels, they do tell a somewhat compelling story of how a free republic can unknowingly and voluntarily turn itself into a dictatorship.
RolStoppable said: I understand that you need to bear arms, but if you truly believe in the validity of the second amendment, you need to live by "a well regulated militia" as well instead of dismissing it as unimportant. "Well regulated" means basic things like, "That guy is an idiot and cannot be trusted, so he shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. Because if push comes to shove, chances are good that he will hurt one of us instead of the enemy." |
The "well regulated" part is basically saying that a well regulated militia is necessary for a free state. It's explaining the reason we need the right to bear arms.
That guy may be an idiot and cannot be trusted, but we can't take away constitutional rights. Know what else we could do if we go down that path? We can chop off people's arms for stealing a loaf of bread, or throw someone in jail without charges indefinitely. But we don't because we need to protect ourselves against Government tyranny - and one of the reasons we are able to do is because of our rights to bear arms.
Now if someone is CONVICTED then sure, there can be restrictions as per 5th amendment.
McDonaldsGuy said:
1. Yeah you're right, mass murders NEVER happen in Western Europe. Aside from Manchester, Paris, Nice, London, the German airplane dude, Norway, etc. etc. Oh look - rape in London has increased 20% in just one year: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-london-reports-met-police-rise-crime-sexual-assault-a8225821.html In the UK, 2 10 year olds raped and beat a 2 year old (named James Burglar) for HOURS if not DAYS. They were both released under new names. Guess what? One of the murderers has been convicted of having child pornography. His sentence? 40 months. He only got 40 months! Yeah, the UK is "safe" because they don't charge dangerous people with actual crimes. It's what Broward County does to lower it's crime rate - the crime rate is low when you don't charge people with crimes. 2. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Meaning they can't limit us to how much we own - the Supreme Court already ruled on stuff like this in 2008. |
1. Try to read what I wrote one more time.
2. If you have the right to own two hunting rifles your right to bear arms is not infringed. However, if you were forbidden to own any weapons, that right would be infringed. Yes, you should read that supreme court decision from 2008, since it clearly states that gun ownership can be regulated (and it is already regulated).
McDonaldsGuy said:
China just made Xi it's Emperor. Is that what you want the future of the world to be like? Under one Emperor? During the Cold War it was the USA vs. Soviet Union. We could've let the Soviets take over Western Europe but we didn't. You should thank us every day for your freedom. |
What are we going to do about China with OUR GUNS?
irstupid said:
I have two points. 1. This school schooting was 100% the fault of the police, FBI, ect for not doing anything. They all seemed to know this kid was messed up and trouble and yet nothing was done. His method of killing is not the problem, the problem was knowing a killing would happen and ignoring it. 2. The slippery slope is what a slippery slope always is. Think of DLC/microtransactions. In the start they were little things and slowly it has become worse and worse. Even when you have huge outcry like EA battlefront, they still sell millions and micros are not going away. Same with laws. Think of gun laws. Lets say their is a shooting and they ban automatic weapons. Then next shooting they ban silencers. Then next shooting they ban semi-auto's. then next shooting they ban shotguns, ect. It's a common thing to do. you know you can't ban something or implement something all at once, so you take baby steps. It's the classic situation where you don't care until they finally come after you. I'm sure you would laugh, scoff or get angry whenever someone comes out and tries to blame video games for violence. But that is what I'm talking about. They ban guns finally. You don't care cause you don't have any guns. Violence still persists, so they ban knives. Again you don't care cause you don't have knives. Violence still persists, so they then ban violence on tv, movies and video games. Now you care and are complaining that they are coming after you and that video game and movies don't cause violence.
BTW, I do blame video games and movies more than guns for violence. Guns, bombs or weapons of any kind are just tools. It's a mental thing that makes one do violence. is that video games or movies? Sure for some. It could also be NRA meetings, church, parents, friends influence, facebook post, movie, book, ect. All those things and more influence a persons thinking, mentality, character, ect. A gun is just a tool. An effective tool, but a tool non the less. Think of Nuclear energy. It can be used to power a city, or it can be used to reduce it to ashes. It all depends on the person who is using it's motives. The splitting of atoms itself is not the enemy. |
That the officer in front of the school was at fault for not doing anything is beyond doubt.
I don't think you can call this a slippery slope kind of argument, you're taking the argument to widely. As far as restricting acces to some kind of guns is just common sense. Civilians don't need acces to assault rifles or mods that can change semi-auto weapons to fully auto. Of course, a gun is just a tool, not an origin of violence in itself. But you don't have to be a genious to realize that kids having acces to fully automatic weapons or pistols is a much more dangerous proposition then let's say a knife.
And blaming video games and movies is something I'm immediatly going to put to the side. The USA has this problem extensively, most other nations don't. So unless there's something in the water that triggers US kids when they see violence on TV to start shooting up their schools, violence in the media is too easy a scapegoat.
spurgeonryan said: I think the government wants us to lose our gun rights. That way as soon as they can they will have total control of us. Only reason we have any freedom in America is due to guns. There are ways to handle this, sometimes when I see how easy it is to get a gun I laugh. Just fix the laws. |
This last paragraph from the OP is a bit insane. This is the kind of thinking that makes gun nuts go crazy and dive into paranoia and conspiracy theories. This thinking is how the NRA and the republican party are able to tell people crazy things like the government is coming for their guns, or as soon as the democrats are in charge they're gonna get rid of the second amendment. Makes paranoid gun people even crazier. So please just stop with your crazy talk. Guns are not the reason we have freedom in America. That's insane. Our laws and our institutions are the reason we have freedom.
The less power the NRA has the better. They have no interest in the well being of America or in American lives. They only care about their own power which is solidified by the proliferation of guns throughout society. Hence why the only solution they or republicans (who follow them blindly) ever have to gun violence is more guns! That's like the sugar industry saying to fight the obesity epidemic by feeding people even more sugar, or solving a cities traffic problems by putting even more cars on the road. Just plain stupid and dangerous.
Leadified said:
"Change your question"? Your question has been answered numerous times in the thread but you refuse to listen. You're kidding if you think I owe you another explanation. If anything you owe me for the question you have yet to answer in our last discussion about race now there's really only two ways that i can interpret this since you have acknowledged that the soviet union was democratic I said that democracy eroded away to authoritarianism from the central state, whereas you say "the soviet union was democratic" as a definite statement. If you think those statements are equal, try again. Maybe you should go find some Marxist-Leninists to hang out with and tell them how democratic Stalin was, you'll fit right in with them, lmao. Oh and before god forbid, you say something like "Stalin was democratic!", the word is totalitarian.
you don't think that its possible for the majority of people in a society to vote the rights of the people in their society away to government? So you do understand what it means. The real question is if you get what it means, then why did you choose the worst possible example instead of just saying this in the first place? I know; I highly doubt you believe in half of the stuff you say. It's obvious you have a problem with the left, but all these bizarre arguments you make are just a front to mask your real points which is why you're always moving the goal posts. But I have no interest in discussing your point, I wanted to pick apart your example and I got what I wanted. I see no point continuing this conversation. Regardless, I know you're going to reply to this post and I eagerly await to read it! |
"Your question has been answered numerous times"
you never addressed the question of how hitler could be have privitised the economy of germany and yet still have control of it
the minute i asked that question you ran away because you cannot address it
" Maybe you should go find some Marxist-Leninists to hang out with and tell them how democratic Stalin was, you'll fit right in with them, lmao."
jesus christ i never said that he was democratic
i said that the soviet union was democratic
what you should be asking yourself is how did it turn from democracy to a totalitarian state?
how did they get all of that power?
i mean its so flipping obvious that i can't believe that i have to spell it out for you
"I said that democracy eroded away to authoritarianism from the central state"
well jesus christ doesn't it occur to you that the authoritarianism occurred BECAUSE of democracy?
what is authoritarianism?
"the enforcement or advocacy of strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom."
what is democracy
"control of an organization or group by the majority of its members"
you mean to tell me that you can't put two and two together? that's really really sad man
"I know; I highly doubt you believe in half of the stuff you say."
give me an example of anything i've said that is unbelievable
"but all these bizarre arguments you make are just a front to mask your real points which is why you're always moving the goal posts."
bizarre? lol reality is bizarre, that's a new one
"I know; I highly doubt you believe in half of the stuff you say. It's obvious you have a problem with the left"
i have a problem with people peddling lies, regardless of what part of the political spectrum they identify with