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Forums - Politics Discussion - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

o_O.Q said:
Final-Fan said:

Compare the things penguins have to the things dolphins have.  Then sea turtles.  Now compare the things penguins have to the things ducks have.  Which is more different?  Or if you don't like the clear answer eyeballs can give then you can turn to expert opinion ... Do Penguins have Wings?  (Hint: flippers)

I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted.  He's saying that there are a lot of everyday groupings that on close scientific examination actually have fuzzy gray areas for borders.  Additionally, he's saying that through "common descent", there is no sudden breakpoint where whales popped into existence where no such creature existed before; it was all gradual differences and thus Ancestor Species A and Descendant Species B is just a human distinction when the millions of generations are collectively just a relatively smooth transition.  There was never a female clearly of species A (not B) that gave birth to a baby clearly of species B (not A). 

None of the above has any resemblance to "elephants swimming with fish" which, if true, is meaningless to the discussion; and, if false, is also meaningless to the discussion. 

I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"

penguins have adapted wings, they do not have the same type of fins or flippers that dolphins or other aquatic animals have

"I don't think you'll find that he made the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted."

that is exactly what he said, go back and read his posts before you get involved and that is exactly why i responded in the way i did

1.  But you didn't call what dolphins have "hands" or "feet" or "legs".  You called them "fins or flippers".  In the same way, you should not, I argue, call what penguins have "wings".  They adapted from wings, and from legs, into something that is different from wings or legs, but which is very similar to what the other aquatic species developed.  We call these fins or flippers. 

Let me put it this way:  Scientists believe that bats evolved from land-dwelling mammals.  Should we call what they use to fly "legs" because they were legs before they were wings, even though they are flying around on them?  Penguins used to have wings.  They evolved to have flippers.  Ostriches have vestigial wings because they apparently didn't need to fly anymore.  All they do now with them is balance and send social cues.  (According to Google, thanks for the tip John2290.)  Penguins don't have vestigial wings.  They have a new thing that they use to move through the water instead of through the air.  They have flippers. 

2.  I did go back and read what he said.  What I found was not what you said, but something that I thought could potentially have been misinterpreted by a careless reader into something within a mile or two of what you said.  But I have been wrong before and I will be wrong in the future, and you can prove me wrong now:  go back and find the exact quote that is "exactly" the blanket assertion that there exist no groups into which animals can be sorted. 

3.  I ask you again:  what was the point of your question, "why don't elephants swim with fish in schools?"



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said: 

" You cannot prove the existence of biological race by simply utilizing the phenotypic characteristics humans decided to lump together and call a "race". "

well its actually biologists that made that distinction who you are dismissing btw

and yup physical characteristics are indeed what we use to define race

 

from google: Race is a concept used in the categorization of humans into groups, called races or racial groups, based on combinations of shared physical traits, ancestry, genetics, and social or cultural traits.

 

i'm curious though, on what authority are you basing this new definition of race since you are denying biological classifications?

Wikipedia is not a stand in for actual scientific articles. I could also go further and say, the unsupported opinion of some within the scientific community does not overwrite the supported claims of others, just because they more conveniently fit into your worldview. 

"There are two evolutionary theoretical criteria for naturally objective groupings of biological organisms. These are common ancestry and degree of similarity (Mayr and Bock, 2002; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011; Templeton, 2013). Phylogenetic systematics and Darwinian/evolutionary taxonomy use “common descent” as a criterion for biological classification but the similarity criterion is used only in the latter. Systematics and evolutionary classification are concerned with organic diversity and evolutionary relationships. The assumptions underlying the primary use of neutral markers in human genetic diversity studies suggest that their objective biological meaning needs to be evaluated based on the above two criteria. Yet as researchers increasingly point out, the debate is “free floating” to the extent that what counts as “biological reality” of human races is elusive, ranging from “trivial” to “obscure,” and often construed in a non-Darwinian biological framework (Cavalli-Sforza, 2000; Cooper et al., 2003; Graves, 2011; Maglo, 2011)."

"Accordingly, a taxon of organisms may be said to have an objective independent biological existence in Darwinian classification if either of the following two conditions obtains: (1) It constitutes a phylognetic clade by comprising all, but only all, the descendants of its originating biological common ancestor (Templeton, 19982013; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Claridge, 2010; Mishler, 2010; Maglo, 2011; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011); and/or (2) It has reached a degree of genetic differentiation deemed taxonomically meaningful in system biology (Mayr and Bock, 2002; Keita et al., 2004; Graves, 2011). Thus, it follows from these evolutionary theoretical constraints that races must be evolutionary distinct human subpopulations by virtue of (1) or (2) or some combination of both in order to be a valid biological category."

"In Darwinian classification (but also in phylogenetic systematics), a biological grouping of organisms that does not meet the above criteria is referred to as a wastebasket taxon. It is so called because it is evolutionary unordered and functions in science merely as a “warehouse kind” that taxonomically lumped together disparate organisms having no objectively definable evolutionary relationship. Wastebasket taxa lack natural reality (Parfrey et al., 2006; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Claridge, 2010; Mishler, 2010; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011) and granting them objective biological existence constitutes an erroneous attribution of ontological status called the fallacy of reification (Gannett, 20042014; Duster, 2005; Glasgow, 2009; Maglo and Martin, 2012; Hochman, 2013)."


To assert the biological relevance of the classification of "human race", you must satisfy certain criteria relating to the genetics and ancestry of subpopulations. Without satisfying those criteria, you are simply bundling traits by convenience and committing the fallacy of reification by attempting to pass this off as a meaningfull biological division.

 

we share 96% of our genes with chimpanzees, how does that factor into your argument? i'd seriously like an answer on that

 

"the unsupported opinion of some within the scientific community does not overwrite the supported claims of others"

lol um are you really trying to push the argument that the consensus within the scientific community is not that race is about physical characteristics?

again i'll reiterate the terms causcasoid, negroid and mongoloid came from the scientific community and are accepted and taught as biological terms worldwide... what does that do for your argument?

you have to address that

 

"To assert the biological relevance of the classification of "human race", you must satisfy certain criteria relating to the genetics and ancestry of subpopulations."

and again this is not the definition of race

here is a biology encyclopedia

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ar-Bi/Biology-of-Race.html

 

edit: tbh i didn't read through this entirely before i posted it and it does corroborate your argument

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 22 February 2018

o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Wikipedia is not a stand in for actual scientific articles. I could also go further and say, the unsupported opinion of some within the scientific community does not overwrite the supported claims of others, just because they more conveniently fit into your worldview. 

"There are two evolutionary theoretical criteria for naturally objective groupings of biological organisms. These are common ancestry and degree of similarity (Mayr and Bock, 2002; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011; Templeton, 2013). Phylogenetic systematics and Darwinian/evolutionary taxonomy use “common descent” as a criterion for biological classification but the similarity criterion is used only in the latter. Systematics and evolutionary classification are concerned with organic diversity and evolutionary relationships. The assumptions underlying the primary use of neutral markers in human genetic diversity studies suggest that their objective biological meaning needs to be evaluated based on the above two criteria. Yet as researchers increasingly point out, the debate is “free floating” to the extent that what counts as “biological reality” of human races is elusive, ranging from “trivial” to “obscure,” and often construed in a non-Darwinian biological framework (Cavalli-Sforza, 2000; Cooper et al., 2003; Graves, 2011; Maglo, 2011)."

"Accordingly, a taxon of organisms may be said to have an objective independent biological existence in Darwinian classification if either of the following two conditions obtains: (1) It constitutes a phylognetic clade by comprising all, but only all, the descendants of its originating biological common ancestor (Templeton, 19982013; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Claridge, 2010; Mishler, 2010; Maglo, 2011; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011); and/or (2) It has reached a degree of genetic differentiation deemed taxonomically meaningful in system biology (Mayr and Bock, 2002; Keita et al., 2004; Graves, 2011). Thus, it follows from these evolutionary theoretical constraints that races must be evolutionary distinct human subpopulations by virtue of (1) or (2) or some combination of both in order to be a valid biological category."

"In Darwinian classification (but also in phylogenetic systematics), a biological grouping of organisms that does not meet the above criteria is referred to as a wastebasket taxon. It is so called because it is evolutionary unordered and functions in science merely as a “warehouse kind” that taxonomically lumped together disparate organisms having no objectively definable evolutionary relationship. Wastebasket taxa lack natural reality (Parfrey et al., 2006; Schuh and Brower, 2009; Claridge, 2010; Mishler, 2010; Wiley and Lieberman, 2011) and granting them objective biological existence constitutes an erroneous attribution of ontological status called the fallacy of reification (Gannett, 20042014; Duster, 2005; Glasgow, 2009; Maglo and Martin, 2012; Hochman, 2013)."


To assert the biological relevance of the classification of "human race", you must satisfy certain criteria relating to the genetics and ancestry of subpopulations. Without satisfying those criteria, you are simply bundling traits by convenience and committing the fallacy of reification by attempting to pass this off as a meaningfull biological division.

 

1) we share 96% of our genes with chimpanzees, how does that factor into your argument? i'd seriously like an answer on that

 

2) "the unsupported opinion of some within the scientific community does not overwrite the supported claims of others"

lol um are you really trying to push the argument that the consensus within the scientific community is not that race is about physical characteristics?

again i'll reiterate the terms causcasoid, negroid and mongoloid came from the scientific community and are accepted and taught as biological terms worldwide... what does that do for your argument?

you have to address that

 

3) "To assert the biological relevance of the classification of "human race", you must satisfy certain criteria relating to the genetics and ancestry of subpopulations."

and again this is not the definition of race

here is a biology encyclopedia

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ar-Bi/Biology-of-Race.html

1) 96% similar to chimpanzees:

This measurement is fundamentally different than measurements used to speak about diversity between humans. By this measure, humans are about 100% similar to each other, because this speaks of the similarities in the a more macroscale, looking at what genes are present. On the other hand, diversity between humans doesn't speak to the presence of genes, it speaks to the presence of alleles at those genes. 

You could think of it kind of like the alphabet. Humans are the roman alphabet. You can make different words with this alphabet, but it all uses the same language. On the other hand, comparison between species would be like throwing in a few chinese characters, which makes the sequences uncompatible (that was a poor comparison, but its the best I can do off the top of my head).

2) The consensus within the scientific community from everything I've read is that race is essentially a "wastebasket taxa". It is something that has been used within many fields such as biology, and has largely been reified through use even though it lacks that solid genetic footing. 

3) Here is a direct quote from your "encyclopedia on biology":

 

"Paleoanthropological evidence suggests that these units have been interbreeding between populations for at least the last two hundred thousand years or longer in what may once have been considered racial groups. More recently, molecular techniques have developed to examine genetic differences between individuals and populations, including karyotypes providing chromosomal number and patterns, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) hybridization, protein sequences, and nuclear and mitochondrial base sequences from ancient and modern DNA. From all this evidence, it is clear that populational, but not racial, differences do exist within the human species."

 

I repeat: It is clear that populational, but not racial, differences do exist within the human species.

To rephrase: Racial differences do not exist within the human species.


Here is some more:

"Early racial classification systems for humans used specific phenotypic characteristics that occurred in higher frequencies in certain populations. Initially, three classes were identified by anthropologists: Caucasoids, Mongoloids, and Negroids; later, Australoids and Capoids (Bushmen) were added. Following this, even more classifications were made, with no consensus among biological anthropologists. Difficulties with these early classification systems stem from the immense genotypic and phenotypic human variation found in modern living populations."

"Some genetic differences do exists between groups, but these by and large do not correspond to historical racial categories."

"Genetic diversity has resulted from the extensive hybridization that has occurred in the last two hundred thousand years, hiding any clear evidence for typological classification of race. Moreover, when selection pressures (temperature, altitude) are coupled with phenotypic variation, phenotypic expression defies taxonomic assignment of race. The genetic diversity within any historically defined race swamps the small amount of difference between such groups, making the boundaries of these categories entirely arbitrary. Therefore, race in humans does not have a biological meaning."

 

I don't think I've ever seen someone post a source which so thoroughly debunks their own point...

Last edited by sundin13 - on 22 February 2018

sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

 

1) we share 96% of our genes with chimpanzees, how does that factor into your argument? i'd seriously like an answer on that

 

2) "the unsupported opinion of some within the scientific community does not overwrite the supported claims of others"

lol um are you really trying to push the argument that the consensus within the scientific community is not that race is about physical characteristics?

again i'll reiterate the terms causcasoid, negroid and mongoloid came from the scientific community and are accepted and taught as biological terms worldwide... what does that do for your argument?

you have to address that

 

3) "To assert the biological relevance of the classification of "human race", you must satisfy certain criteria relating to the genetics and ancestry of subpopulations."

and again this is not the definition of race

here is a biology encyclopedia

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ar-Bi/Biology-of-Race.html

1) 96% similar to chimpanzees:

This measurement is fundamentally different than measurements used to speak about diversity between humans. By this measure, humans are about 100% similar to each other, because this speaks of the similarities in the a more macroscale, looking at what genes are present. On the other hand, diversity between humans doesn't speak to the presence of genes, it speaks to the presence of alleles at those genes. 

You could think of it kind of like the alphabet. Humans are the roman alphabet. You can make different words with this alphabet, but it all uses the same language. On the other hand, comparison between species would be like throwing in a few chinese characters, which makes the sequences uncompatible (that was a poor comparison, but its the best I can do off the top of my head).

2) The consensus within the scientific community from everything I've read is that race is essentially a "wastebasket taxa". It is something that has been used within many fields such as biology, and has largely been reified through use even though it lacks that solid genetic footing. 

3) Here is a direct quote from your "encyclopedia on biology":

"Paleoanthropological evidence suggests that these units have been interbreeding between populations for at least the last two hundred thousand years or longer in what may once have been considered racial groups.

More recently, molecular techniques have developed to examine genetic differences between individuals and populations, including karyotypes providing chromosomal number and patterns, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) hybridization, protein sequences, and nuclear and mitochondrial base sequences from ancient and modern DNA. From all this evidence, it is clear that populational, but not racial, differences do exist within the human species."

 

I repeat: It is clear that populational, but not racial, differences do exist within the human species.

To rephrase: Racial differences do not exist within the human species.

Here is some more:

"Early racial classification systems for humans used specific phenotypic characteristics that occurred in higher frequencies in certain populations. Initially, three classes were identified by anthropologists: Caucasoids, Mongoloids, and Negroids; later, Australoids and Capoids (Bushmen) were added. Following this, even more classifications were made, with no consensus among biological anthropologists. Difficulties with these early classification systems stem from the immense genotypic and phenotypic human variation found in modern living populations."

"Some genetic differences do exists between groups, but these by and large do not correspond to historical racial categories."

"Genetic diversity has resulted from the extensive hybridization that has occurred in the last two hundred thousand years, hiding any clear evidence for typological classification of race. Moreover, when selection pressures (temperature, altitude) are coupled with phenotypic variation, phenotypic expression defies taxonomic assignment of race. The genetic diversity within any historically defined race swamps the small amount of difference between such groups, making the boundaries of these categories entirely arbitrary. Therefore, race in humans does not have a biological meaning."

 

I don't think I've ever seen someone post a source which so thoroughly debunks their own point...

yeah... i edited my post to indicate that it corroborates your argument... but regardless the term race as used for example in the op is about physical differences, not the genetic profiles of people

i think the problem that is arising here is that the term race has always had that definition associated with it, but now supposedly to be politically correct the field of biology is shifting to discard the term altogether

but this does not change the fact that the term race has always had that definition ( the physical expression of genetic differences ) and still does have that definition...the only thing from my understanding that has changed is the discarding of the term ( on political grounds imo )

i'll acknowledge that you were right that the field of biology is shifting away from the classifications i brought up, but for the purposes of the topic of this thread race is being discussed regardless



the-pi-guy said:
sundin13 said:
.

My favorite part about him quoting wikipedia, is that the next line is literally "Although such groupings lack a firm basis in modern biology, they continue to have a strong influence over contemporary social relations"

"Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete, and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits"

"Modern scholarship views racial categories as socially constructed, that is, race is not intrinsic to human beings but rather an identity created to establish meaning in a social context"

All of his other quotes from wikipedia are from articles that make similar points about race being a social construct.  

 

"Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete"

yeah the same arguments being used to verify the idea that gender is infinite....

to reiterate what i said to him

nothing has changed about the definition of race, all that has changed is that the term race is being removed from the field of biology

its meaning is the same as it always has been with regards to identifying people with different physical characteristics

 

to put a finer point on this, the fact that the field of biology is phasing out the term race does not mean, for example, that we lose the ability to differentiate between a black and a white man correct?

and furthermore it does not mean that when people make such distinctions that its not grounded in biology, since we make such distinctions in accordance with the expression of genetic traits

 

i suppose i'm a bit taken aback tbh, never thought i'd see the day that biology became politically correct and yet here it is happening right before my very eyes




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o_O.Q said:

nothing has changed about the definition of race, all that has changed is that the term race is being removed from the field of biology

its meaning is the same as it always has been with regards to identifying people with different physical characteristics

 

to put a finer point on this, the fact that the field of biology is phasing out the term race does not mean, for example, that we lose the ability to differentiate between a black and a white man correct?

and furthermore it does not mean that when people make such distinctions that its not grounded in biology, since we make such distinctions in accordance with the expression of genetic traits


That isn't really true. Race (in the human context) has always been an assumption that the underlying genetics would mirror certain phenotypic patterns. As our knowledge of genetics has grown, we have learned that this assumption was false, and as such, the scientific community has taken some steps forwards in the way we speak about race. Unfortunately, such concepts have become reified through use, which makes correcting errors in a broad context difficult. 

This is evidenced by the fact that the field of biology is not "phasing out the term race". The term still applies within other species, where genetics indicate races do exist. However, it is attempting to correct the record on the use of the term in relation to humans, where such a term is inaccurate.

That is how science works. New knowledge replaces old assumptions and we move forwards to assimilate this new knowledge into the existing knowledge base, and reformulating hypothesis based on these changes. The issue has nothing to do with political correctness, it is simply science working correctly, and those outside of said science throwing up their hands because they don't want their worldview disrupted. 

To conclude, I will first ask, why would it be harmful to move away from skin color based classification systems?



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

nothing has changed about the definition of race, all that has changed is that the term race is being removed from the field of biology

its meaning is the same as it always has been with regards to identifying people with different physical characteristics

 

to put a finer point on this, the fact that the field of biology is phasing out the term race does not mean, for example, that we lose the ability to differentiate between a black and a white man correct?

and furthermore it does not mean that when people make such distinctions that its not grounded in biology, since we make such distinctions in accordance with the expression of genetic traits


That isn't really true. Race (in the human context) has always been an assumption that the underlying genetics would mirror certain phenotypic patterns. As our knowledge of genetics has grown, we have learned that this assumption was false, and as such, the scientific community has taken some steps forwards in the way we speak about race. Unfortunately, such concepts have become reified through use, which makes correcting errors in a broad context difficult. 

This is evidenced by the fact that the field of biology is not "phasing out the term race". The term still applies within other species, where genetics indicate races do exist. However, it is attempting to correct the record on the use of the term in relation to humans, where such a term is inaccurate.

That is how science works. New knowledge replaces old assumptions and we move forwards to assimilate this new knowledge into the existing knowledge base, and reformulating hypothesis based on these changes. The issue has nothing to do with political correctness, it is simply science working correctly, and those outside of said science throwing up their hands because they don't want their worldview disrupted. 

To conclude, I will first ask, why would it be harmful to move away from skin color based classification systems?

"Race (in the human context) has always been an assumption that the underlying genetics would mirror certain phenotypic patterns"

the phenotype is the physical expression of your genetics

so by definition there is a connection, it sounds like you are saying that there is no connection here

 

" The issue has nothing to do with political correctness, it is simply science working correctly"

the fact that you are denying that the differences i can clearly identify between black people and asian people is why i'm saying this is political correctness

to say that such differences are not biological but socially constructed is to be frank insane

to quote pi guy 

"Modern scholarship views racial categories as socially constructed"


"and those outside of said science throwing up their hands because they don't want their worldview disrupted. "

how would anything you posted disrupt my worldview? well despite my assumption on the state of the field of biology?

you haven't posted anything that shows that the characteristics we use to identify different human races are not biological in nature which is the crux of this issue

if you could prove that the differences are really not biological but social then yes that would be earth shattering

 

"To conclude, I will first ask, why would it be harmful to move away from skin color based classification systems?"

you have to rather naive to think that simply because you discard a word that people won't continue to behave in accordance with what they see

Last edited by o_O.Q - on 22 February 2018

sundin13 said:
LipeJJ said:

I want identify myself as a native brazilian even though I'm white and blond. What's the matter with it?

About half of Brazilians are typically classified as "white", so that wouldn't really be much of a contradiction.

75% of of my family comes from France, but you're right. There's no contradiction. We can all be what we feel like, right? o/



Bet with Teeqoz for 2 weeks of avatar and sig control that Super Mario Odyssey would ship more than 7m on its first 2 months. The game shipped 9.07m, so I won

This resonates more with me now that my twins are born.I am Hispanic, dark brown eyes, and fair skin.My wife is Anglo, blonde, light blue eyes, pale skin.My son is more or less a reflection of me except his eyes are light brown.My daughter resembles my wife but again they differ in their eyes, my daughter's are greyish blue.

Were they to be identified by race my son would probably fall under Hispanic, while my daughter would be white even though they are fraternal twins.My kids being able to choose their race is probably for the best, that is if they chose either Hispanic or White, since neither my wife nor I have any know African or Asian ancestors in our family trees.



sundin13 said:

But why?

There is no fundamental biological principle which states that is where the lines for these divisions should be drawn. The decision to drawn the line there is based on convenience. That is largely the crux of this discussion: Whether or not the divisions are natural or if the have just been reified through use. 

You could practically use that argument against any biological division among populations ... (biologists aren't going to stop at just "species" either, they are going to make further classifications in the same species group such as "breeds" and to me "human races" are no different than that of animal "breeds") 

If we do that for the ENTIRE animal kingdom then human races are not an exception ... 

sundin13 said:

And no, skewed allele frequencies are not the key to identifying race. If that were true, we would consider people from East Finland to be a different race than West Finland. As it turns out, through skewed allele frequencies, genetic technology can actually determine ancestry location within a few hundred kilometers. Skewed allele frequencies are simply natural artifacts which present themselves in any large population. 

And it's these skewed allele frequencies which allows us to categorize these large populations ... 

Would you categorize the people of East Finland as being more genetically similar to the populations of East Asia or Sub-Saharan Africa compared to the European populations ? 

sundin13 said: 

I found a few interesting articles on the topic that I wanted to bring up:

Evidence for Gradients of Human Genetic Diversity Within and Among Continents

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/959a/62f7b57dba3f38d183e6caecbe39a05c19d2.pdf?_ga=2.169619745.1273437384.1519162892-1643875267.1519162892

This article is a direct response to the Rosenburg (2002) article you posted yesterday. Essentially, what it is stating is that the "distinctness" of the populations determined by Rutherford (which already exist on shaky footing as a stand-in for race, for the reasons discussed above) is largely due to the incomplete nature of his population sets. By taking a more even sampling from across the globe, we find that humanity doesn't exist in distinct chunks but instead exist as a gradient, or cline. 

"Using a homogeneous sampling strategy and a model in which allele frequencies in the different inferred populations are allowed to be independent, we find a stable and reproducible representation of human genetic diversity in which the extent of admixture between individuals in Eurasia and the Americas changes continuously with geographical distance without any major discontinuities"

"on a worldwide scale, clines are a better representation of the human diversity than clades, and that continents do not represent more substantial discontinuities in such clines than many other geographical and cultural barriers"

I don't argue for "race" as a discontinuous distribution of human genetic diversity. In fact I've always acknowledged that race is not a discontinuous classification for human populations much like how we define each "colour" to be distinct only to find out later that they are just a part of the near continuous visible wavelength spectrum of electromagnetic radiation but that doesn't mean that we still can't group based on "range" ...  

Not all of us define "race" as genetically "distinct" populations and instead define race as genetically "skewed" populations based off of geographical isolation ... (you call them "clines" but we call it "race") 

sundin13 said: 

Population Genomics and the Statistical Values of Race

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4756148/

This article discusses similar ideas, outside of the context of Rosenburg. It shows that the "cluster" effects some studies demonstrate is likely to be an artifact of flawed sampling, it covers the statistical analyses dealing with the division of a species into race and demonstrates that the difference are often not stastically significant and are evolutionarily meaningless, and concludes that the idea of "race" has no basis in biological reality.

"Adopting an interdisciplinary approach, it demonstrates that the hypothesis that attributes the clustering of human populations to “frictional” effects of landform barriers at continental boundaries is empirically incoherent"

"what counts as “biological reality” of human races is elusive, ranging from “trivial” to “obscure,” and often construed in a non-Darwinian biological framework"

"In Darwinian classification (but also in phylogenetic systematics), a biological grouping of organisms that does not meet [certain criteria] is referred to as a wastebasket taxon. It is so called because it is evolutionary unordered and functions in science merely as a “warehouse kind” that taxonomically lumped together disparate organisms having no objectively definable evolutionary relationship. Wastebasket taxa lack natural reality and granting them objective biological existence constitutes an erroneous attribution of ontological status called the fallacy of reification"

“A classification that takes into account evolutionary relationships and the nested pattern of diversity would require that Sub-Saharan Africans are not a race because the most exclusive group that includes all Sub-Saharan African populations also includes every non-Sub-Saharan African population…”

" the cline model maps continuous genetic gradation in a dataset and indicates that there is no natural break in a population's genetic profile "

@Bold Rosenberg responds otherwise in another paper ... (this pretty much trivializes your entire argument that the genetic differences between races are not statistically significant not true) 

And you think race is a wastebasket taxon not based on a natural reality ?! LOL 

Ignoring for a second that geneticists showed an insurmountable amount of evidence for the relationship between geographical races/ancestry and the fact that they have yet to be disproved for these studies/research and practices let's also take a look at the biological ramifications that "races" have in the context of the clinical world ... 

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1993074,00.html

Mixed race populations are at a MASSIVE disadvantage when finding a compatible bone marrow donors so instead of your body rejecting an organ, your new immune system rejects your body instead so if race is not statistically significant at the genetic level like you keep arguing then what is your hypothesis for the disparity in mixed races having vastly lower chances in finding bone marrow matches ?  (Can you really tell these patients who have leukemia if you are a surgeon with lifelines at the wire that race doesn't matter ?!)

http://healthland.time.com/2013/11/01/the-hpv-vaccine-and-the-case-for-race-based-medicine/

Even vaccines show different efficacy among human races ... 

There's a health organization dedicated to finding bond marrow matches among mixed races ...