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Forums - Politics Discussion - Delaware students can now choose their own race (Yes, RACE!) under new regulations.

John2290 said:
Can someone explain to me what the heck is going on, have we regressed to the point of just flat out ignoring science and years of work, in some cases centuries of data so we can feel better about ourselves. I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, what the fuck is going on here? Is someone intervening in the curriculum of western schools and colleges with intend to spread some fantasy narrative or is this coming from the mentality of "I am smart, I can do science, me." because of the internet and information at the click of a button. This shit is scary as fuck man.

Whether or not you agree the positions of some of the posters in this thread, which are largely based on an ongoing scientific debate, the fact is, this "change" is functionally meaningless. No one has yet to explain any way in which being able to self-report race will result in any negative consequences within these school districts. There is nothing scary about this. It is a mundane change to make some paperwork easier.

I think the only thing scary about it is the fact that some people are so desperate to cling to divisions of race, even when those divisions are so functionally meaningless. 



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John2290 said:
Can someone explain to me what the heck is going on, have we regressed to the point of just flat out ignoring science and years of work, in some cases centuries of data so we can feel better about ourselves. I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, what the fuck is going on here? Is someone intervening in the curriculum of western schools and colleges with intend to spread some fantasy narrative or is this coming from the mentality of "I am smart, I can do science, me." because of the internet and information at the click of a button. This shit is scary as fuck man.

*Sigh*  What's going on is that you've somehow interpreted "let's let people just enter their own race on a form since people are generally capable of doing so without incident and we can always contact parents on an as needed basis if someone is doing anything abnormal" into "THE DELAWARE SCHOOL SYSTEM WILL LET YOU CLAIM TO BE ANY RACE YOU WANT AND PEOPLE IDENTIFYING THEIR OWN RACE IS NEW AND SCARY AND I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET ANYMORE!!!"

Seriously, how else would you go about recording race?  Having children report with the option of double checking with parents as need be seems like a perfectly appropriate method.



sundin13 said:

How exactly do you take the assertion that there are genetic differences between certain populations to be a refutation of the idea that there are genetic differences between certain populations?

My argument was not and has never been that genetic differences between geographical locations do not exist. My argument was instead, the exact divisions elucidating how to break apart humanity into "geographical races" are not clear or exact. 

I demonstrated this by using the example of Finland, which is full of white people, yet fits the literal definition for a separate "geographical race". They are geographically separated by distance and they are distinguishable through genetic characteristics.

So, since you seem to have not only ignored my question, but somehow interpreted it as saying the exact opposite of what it actually said, I will ask it again:

Because we can separate out the Finnish based on genetic characteristics from other white populations, should they be considered a different race?

EDIT:

Also, it is worth noting that the study you quoted is not a study about race. It is a study about ancestry, and these two concepts are not the same. "Because all populations are genetically diverse, and because there is a complex relation between ancestry, genetic makeup and phenotype, and because racial categories are based on subjective evaluations of the traits, there is no specific gene that can be used to determine a person's race."

 

Also, it is worth noting that "Lewontin's fallacy" isn't really a true "fallacy". It is more of an argument than the identification of a true logical fallacy. And it certainly hasn't been the final step in this debate. In 2015, a group of researchers (who had once criticized Lewontin's research) used more sophisticated methodology to conclude: "In sum, we concur with Lewontin’s conclusion that Western-based racial classifications have no taxonomic significance, and we hope that this research, which takes into account our current understanding of the structure of human diversity, places his seminal finding on firmer evolutionary footing".

 

My argument however more closely mirrors that of Kaplan and Graves, who state "that, while differences in particular allele frequencies can be used to identify populations that loosely correspond to the racial categories common in Western social discourse, the differences are of no more biological significance than the differences found between any human populations (e.g., the Spanish and Portuguese)".

@Bold Even better, let's just have our "macro" population group which corresponds to each major continent to be defined as our "geographical races" and then have these "micro" population groups which corresponds with "ethnicity/nationality" ... (well you could split up races by "ethnicity" but I just choose to define our current understanding of "geographical races" as genetic drift across populations based on continental boundaries since it fits with our data and is a much simpler reduction) 

Skewed allele frequencies among certain populations are key to identifying "races" and that by itself major biological significance since there are real world medical applications that are based on this concept! 



sundin13 said:
John2290 said:
Can someone explain to me what the heck is going on, have we regressed to the point of just flat out ignoring science and years of work, in some cases centuries of data so we can feel better about ourselves. I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, what the fuck is going on here? Is someone intervening in the curriculum of western schools and colleges with intend to spread some fantasy narrative or is this coming from the mentality of "I am smart, I can do science, me." because of the internet and information at the click of a button. This shit is scary as fuck man.

Whether or not you agree the positions of some of the posters in this thread, which are largely based on an ongoing scientific debate, the fact is, this "change" is functionally meaningless. No one has yet to explain any way in which being able to self-report race will result in any negative consequences within these school districts. There is nothing scary about this. It is a mundane change to make some paperwork easier.

I think the only thing scary about it is the fact that some people are so desperate to cling to divisions of race, even when those divisions are so functionally meaningless. 

lol hang on let me make sure i got this right

so according to you black people and asian people are the same?



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Whether or not you agree the positions of some of the posters in this thread, which are largely based on an ongoing scientific debate, the fact is, this "change" is functionally meaningless. No one has yet to explain any way in which being able to self-report race will result in any negative consequences within these school districts. There is nothing scary about this. It is a mundane change to make some paperwork easier.

I think the only thing scary about it is the fact that some people are so desperate to cling to divisions of race, even when those divisions are so functionally meaningless. 

lol hang on let me make sure i got this right

so according to you black people and asian people are the same?

LOL, it's ironic at first glance since statistics show otherwise ... 



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sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said: 

1) the fact that in group variation is higher than between group group variation is irrelevant.I f we say a range of 110 to 140 is greater than a range from 70 to 80 but then say that for our purposes we cannot exceed 100... what factors then are most important?

2) hypertension?

3) so why was there discussion about children going to school who were not vaccinated?

4) This is like saying why bother hitting on a girl since she might end up being gay... i mean really?

5) The one you presented was sufficient


1) The issue is that between-group variation typically overlaps (which is something I said in my last post), leaving you with competing ranges of 70-120 vs 80-130. As such, the majority of the "difference" is virtually indistinguishable. And even still, other factors such as family history tend to be a better indicator of the potential presence of a particular trait than race. 

2) Do you consider hypertension to be a natural social division? Were you asked whether you had hypertension when you were taking the SAT? Again, if the doctor wants to know these things, that is fine, but these aren't social divisions. These are not things that are relevant in pretty much any context but the doctor's office (and even still, their relevance there is extremely limited and most of the time irrelevant). As such, to maintain these divisions outside of the extremely limited context where they have any application is to socially construct their importance. Which is what I've been arguing. So the question becomes: do you disagree that the heavy importance and social divisions built around race are socially constructed? 

3) Because that is about the potential of being contagious. High blood pressure and male pattern baldness and other diseases with a strong genetic component typically aren't contagious. To bring it up is to kind of sidestep this entire conversation.

4) How is it like that in literally any way? What is that even supposed to mean?

5) No response?

 

"The issue is that between-group variation typically overlaps (which is something I said in my last post), leaving you with competing ranges of 70-120 vs 80-130. As such, the majority of the "difference" is virtually indistinguishable. "

its virtually indistinguishable only if you are ideologically controlled 

skin cancer for example overwhelmingly impacts white people over black people

is that because of social conditioning?

 

"Do you consider hypertension to be a natural social division? "

what?

do you not remember that this was the original question?

""since when have we divided humans based on susceptibility to high blood pressure? ""

i'm saying that hypertension is clearly a division based on susceptibility to high blood pressure, what is your response to that? 

 

"Because that is about the potential of being contagious."

huh? isn't the purpose of the vaccine to stop the disease regardless? so why would it matter?

 

"How is it like that in literally any way?"

attributes that go into the past, your example was high blood pressure, mine was interest in men



fatslob-:O said:
o_O.Q said:

lol hang on let me make sure i got this right

so according to you black people and asian people are the same?

LOL, it's ironic at first glance since statistics show otherwise ... 

no but seriously this question needs to be asked to clarify things, since that pretty much is the logical conclusion of his argument



equality of outcomes is a hell of a drug



do you imagine there will come a time when you can get ID based on what age you identify as? So that if there was a pedophile who wanted to attend primary school he could identify as a 4 year old, or if a bunch of kids wanted to be able to buy beer and guns they could identify as a 21 year old for the cause?

It's just that I could really go for some early retirement, sometimes after a hard days work my bones feel like an old man.... perhaps I should identify as an OAP and start getting my pension?



Why not check me out on youtube and help me on the way to 2k subs over at www.youtube.com/stormcloudlive

JWeinCom said:
John2290 said:
Can someone explain to me what the heck is going on, have we regressed to the point of just flat out ignoring science and years of work, in some cases centuries of data so we can feel better about ourselves. I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread, what the fuck is going on here? Is someone intervening in the curriculum of western schools and colleges with intend to spread some fantasy narrative or is this coming from the mentality of "I am smart, I can do science, me." because of the internet and information at the click of a button. This shit is scary as fuck man.

*Sigh*  What's going on is that you've somehow interpreted "let's let people just enter their own race on a form since people are generally capable of doing so without incident and we can always contact parents on an as needed basis if someone is doing anything abnormal" into "THE DELAWARE SCHOOL SYSTEM WILL LET YOU CLAIM TO BE ANY RACE YOU WANT AND PEOPLE IDENTIFYING THEIR OWN RACE IS NEW AND SCARY AND I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET ANYMORE!!!"

Seriously, how else would you go about recording race?  Having children report with the option of double checking with parents as need be seems like a perfectly appropriate method.

We cannot trust ordinary people to make decisions such as this, what if somebody does something inappropriate? That would inevitably contribute to the collapse of Western civilization. No, we need a strong, responsible, overarching authority to make these decisions for us!