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Forums - Politics Discussion - School Shooting in South Florida

Or, we can do what every other country does and have less murdering. Its like some people are afraid to not have the option to commit mass murder. And for its part the NRA is responsible because instead of using common sense, it uses fear to control people. The head of the NRA said today:

"They hate the NRA. They hate the Second Amendment. They hate individual freedom. In the rush of calls for more government, they've also revealed their true selves … Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms."

How they are able to ignore all of the death and instead turn it into a crusade against a phantom boogieman is really repulsive.



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Cyran said:

I would argue it has more to do with the increase in mass incarceration.

Notice the trends almost match your chart exactly including the dips (for males).

Obama had a take on it before he was President: fatherless children are 20x more likely to end in prison explaining the correlation between the rise of dysfunctional families and imprisonment.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.
You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children. We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."

https://www.politico.com/story/2008/06/text-of-obamas-fatherhood-speech-011094



CosmicSex said:
Or, we can do what every other country does and have less murdering. Its like some people are afraid to not have the option to commit mass murder. And for its part the NRA is responsible because instead of using common sense, it uses fear to control people. The head of the NRA said today:

"They hate the NRA. They hate the Second Amendment. They hate individual freedom. In the rush of calls for more government, they've also revealed their true selves … Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms."

How they are able to ignore all of the death and instead turn it into a crusade against a phantom boogieman is really repulsive.

They’re irrational if they actually believe being in favour of a ban on assault rifles means you’re against all freedom. 

They’re also incredible hypocrites.

Immediately after shooting down the idea of gun control, they passed something to proceed with pornography control; declaring it a major threat to the public. Even more hypocritical because people watching porn doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights, but the epidemic of people shooting others with guns most certainly does.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

numberwang said:
Cyran said:

I would argue it has more to do with the increase in mass incarceration.

Notice the trends almost match your chart exactly including the dips (for males).

Obama had a take on it before he was President: fatherless children are 20x more likely to end in prison explaining the correlation between the rise of dysfunctional families and imprisonment.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.
You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children. We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it."

https://www.politico.com/story/2008/06/text-of-obamas-fatherhood-speech-011094

I offer it a vicious cycle that started with the war on drugs (Nixon declared it in 1971 and notice not much after that when the big raise started).  Then the children of those fathers thrown in jail follows what Obama was talking about which increases the slope at a fast rate.  The second bump on the chart after it started going down a little because of the booming economy happened a little after bill Clinton 1994 crime bill.  

I don't think you can ignore the affect criminal policy have had and blame it 100% on poverty.



Jumpin said:
Americans always get ultra defensive when they hear bad news about their bad habits and cultural traits.

Yes, only people from the U.S. get defensive when a quarter of the population is regularly slandered by the media.



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Bajablo said:
The_Yoda said:

I have no audio on this PC, can you summarize what he says in those 6 minutes?

He starts by saying he did say to his wife that he would give that gun away if it could have saved 1 child. And that it was obviously just empty words. (cause he said it 5 years ago)
And the "why punish legal gun owners" doesn't work as an argument, because before the school shootings the person who did it WAS a legal gun owner.
Legal gun owners are capable of snapping and start killing people.

And then he goes on to talk about what he should do with his gun. He got told that he should sell it or give it to law-enforcement or something.
But where that gun could end up, and it might end up ending a life, was not worth it for him.. so he just sawed it in half instead. making sure that his gun would never kill anyone.

he ends with that there are so many guns out there, but now there is at least one less.

 

why i posted it was that it was the first time i saw someone actually doing something, instead of just talking about it and making excuses.

Is it wise to begin stripping rights from people based on what they're simply capable of doing with said rights?
And what did he actually do, besides make a completely symbolic gesture? Unless he was planning to go on a shooting spree or illegally give his gun to somebody, he didn't actually change anything.



CosmicSex said:
Or, we can do what every other country does and have less murdering. Its like some people are afraid to not have the option to commit mass murder. And for its part the NRA is responsible because instead of using common sense, it uses fear to control people. The head of the NRA said today:

"They hate the NRA. They hate the Second Amendment. They hate individual freedom. In the rush of calls for more government, they've also revealed their true selves … Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms."

How they are able to ignore all of the death and instead turn it into a crusade against a phantom boogieman is really repulsive.

The United States has seen a decline in its murder rate almost every year for over a quarter of a century now. It's less than half of what it was in the early 90s. And that's definitely not the case with "every other country."

It seems rather dishonest to say that people simply don't want to give up their right to potentially commit mass murder. Less than one percent of registered gun owners in the U.S. will commit any sort of gun-related crime, and according to the New York Times, over 4 times as many people use firearms to protect life instead of take it.



dirtylemons said:
CosmicSex said:
Or, we can do what every other country does and have less murdering. Its like some people are afraid to not have the option to commit mass murder. And for its part the NRA is responsible because instead of using common sense, it uses fear to control people. The head of the NRA said today:

"They hate the NRA. They hate the Second Amendment. They hate individual freedom. In the rush of calls for more government, they've also revealed their true selves … Their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so they can eradicate all individual freedoms."

How they are able to ignore all of the death and instead turn it into a crusade against a phantom boogieman is really repulsive.

The United States has seen a decline in its murder rate almost every year for over a quarter of a century now. It's less than half of what it was in the early 90s. And that's definitely not the case with "every other country."

It seems rather dishonest to say that people simply don't want to give up their right to potentially commit mass murder. Less than one percent of registered gun owners in the U.S. will commit any sort of gun-related crime, and according to the New York Times, over 4 times as many people use firearms to protect life instead of take it.

I would be more incline to your stats if Congress and the NRA would let the CDC actually do a study on gun violence.  Instead of these one sided stats to fit a position, instead I would like the ban on the study actually lifted so we can get real solid results.  The fact that Congress and the NRA are scared about such a study should speak volumes.  If you truly believe what you say then such a study should prove your right.



Machiavellian said:
dirtylemons said:

The United States has seen a decline in its murder rate almost every year for over a quarter of a century now. It's less than half of what it was in the early 90s. And that's definitely not the case with "every other country."

It seems rather dishonest to say that people simply don't want to give up their right to potentially commit mass murder. Less than one percent of registered gun owners in the U.S. will commit any sort of gun-related crime, and according to the New York Times, over 4 times as many people use firearms to protect life instead of take it.

I would be more incline to your stats if Congress and the NRA would let the CDC actually do a study on gun violence.  Instead of these one sided stats to fit a position, instead I would like the ban on the study actually lifted so we can get real solid results.  The fact that Congress and the NRA are scared about such a study should speak volumes.  If you truly believe what you say then such a study should prove your right.

Research and studies are not the same as federal statistics. We know what the crime rate in the country is, per the F.B.I., CDC and UN.
For the record, I personally am not against repealing the Dickey Amendment (assuming that's what you're referring to). But it's important not to conflate 'gun control studies' with 'crime statistics', the latter of which are most definitely not being hidden by said amendment.



dirtylemons said:
Machiavellian said:

I would be more incline to your stats if Congress and the NRA would let the CDC actually do a study on gun violence.  Instead of these one sided stats to fit a position, instead I would like the ban on the study actually lifted so we can get real solid results.  The fact that Congress and the NRA are scared about such a study should speak volumes.  If you truly believe what you say then such a study should prove your right.

Research and studies are not the same as federal statistics. We know what the crime rate in the country is, per the F.B.I., CDC and UN.
For the record, I personally am not against repealing the Dickey Amendment (assuming that's what you're referring to). But it's important not to conflate 'gun control studies' with 'crime statistics', the latter of which are most definitely not being hidden by said amendment.

That is the question.  When you just throw out stats but not include the complete picture things can be constructed to fit a particular agenda.  Instead of just stats, I would like a complete study on gun violence and it affects on our society.