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ArnoldRimmer said:

in 1996 for example they were successful at making their preferred candidate Boris Yeltsin president of Russia. The TIME magazine even proudly admitted that back then:
http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1996/1101960715_400.jpg

Are you sure this TIME story isn't just, like, "Americans on the campaign staff know how to run an election"?  I believe our campaign laws would have prohibited Trump from having Russians without green cards in key positions in his campaign, but if it was legal there would be no problem with it, and I personally wouldn't have a big problem if it was legal in the USA as well.  Point is, I question whether the evidence you cited was really Americans helping Yeltsin win "secretly" in the sense of secret illegitimate activity as opposed to secretive legitimate activity.  I mean, let me put it this way:  what kind of covert operation gives interviews one month later to a magazine with international readership?  But I could be wrong and that is exactly what happened.  Can you cite better evidence than a vague magazine cover? 

A small amount of research on my part suggests that the magazine was indeed referring to private campaign advisers (not gov't agents).  If you want to allege real meddling, point to the suspiciously timed financial aid that helped Yeltsin send overdue pension checks to grateful voters. 



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Puppyroach said:
NightDragon83 said:

I still want to know from the "Trump stole the election via collusion with Russia" conspiracy mongers why Russia was brushed off as a non-factor during most of the Obama administration (mainly from '09-'12 when Hillary Clinton was SoS and was BFFs with Russia) and yet now they have magically become our #1 geopolitical threat after Hillary blew the election?

How's that "reset button" working out for you guys?

"The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back!" - President Barack Obama's quip to candidate Mitt Romney during the 2012 election debate.

“This is my last election … After my election I have more flexibility,” Obama said, expressing confidence that he would win a second term. “I will transmit this information to Vladimir,” said Medvedev, Putin’s protégé and long considered number two in Moscow’s power structure. https://www.snopes.com/obama-more-flexibility-russia/

Gee, imagine if Trump was caught on a hot mic prior to the election talking to Putin or some other high ranking official from Russia promising "more flexibility" after the election, presuming he would emerge as the winner.

You should get your history description correct: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/barack-obama-threatens-russia-with-sanctions-after-crimea-referendum-9196018.html 

That's from March 2014.  Obama and Co. were singing a much different tune about Russia before then.  It's not like Putin changed his stripes overnight.



On 2/24/13, MB1025 said:
You know I was always wondering why no one ever used the dollar sign for $ony, but then I realized they have no money so it would be pointless.

NightDragon83 said:

1.  I still want to know from the "Trump stole the election via collusion with Russia" conspiracy mongers why Russia was brushed off as a non-factor during most of the Obama administration (mainly from '09-'12 when Hillary Clinton was SoS and was BFFs with Russia) and yet now they have magically become our #1 geopolitical threat after Hillary blew the election?

2.  How's that "reset button" working out for you guys?

"The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back!" - President Barack Obama's quip to candidate Mitt Romney during one of the 2012 election debates after Romney argued that Russia was one of if not THE biggest threats to our national security interests.  Obama in reply had to dig up Al Qaeda as the real boogeyman, despite the fact that OBL had been dead for over a year, AQ was a disjointed mess, and the post-Arab Spring Middle East had been thrown into chaos with power vacuums in failed states like Libya (which Obama helped destabilize) being filled by the likes of ISIS.

3.  “This is my last election … After my election I have more flexibility,” Obama said, expressing confidence that he would win a second term. “I will transmit this information to Vladimir,” said Medvedev, Putin’s protégé and long considered number two in Moscow’s power structure. https://www.snopes.com/obama-more-flexibility-russia/

Gee, imagine if Trump was caught on a hot mic prior to the election talking to Putin or some other high ranking official from Russia promising "more flexibility" after the election, presuming he would emerge as the winner.

1.  Maybe you missed it, but after "09-12" there was something that sort of happened in Crimea and it kind of upset some people.  There were sanctions and stuff. 

2.  The "reset" failed ... what's your point? 

3.  I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to insinuate here ... that Obama rigged the 2012 election?  That he was making promises as to where his "flexibility" would extend to?  That sitting Presidents should not negotiate with foreign powers? 

I personally interpret this as basically Obama saying "the elections are causing politics to get in the way of my actions, we'll talk later".  That is nothing like the allegations against Trump. 



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NightDragon83 said:
Puppyroach said:

You should get your history description correct: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/barack-obama-threatens-russia-with-sanctions-after-crimea-referendum-9196018.html 

That's from March 2014.  Obama and Co. were singing a much different tune about Russia before then.  It's not like Putin changed his stripes overnight.

But the question is, why the fuck are you talking about 2012 and the fact that we were trying to make diplomatic overtures to Russia and claiming that "they have magically become [our enemy] AFTER Hillary blew the election" if you are fully aware of the fact that relations soured YEARS before the 2016 elections?  Are you not being intellectually dishonest here? 



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NightDragon83 said:
Puppyroach said:

You should get your history description correct: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/barack-obama-threatens-russia-with-sanctions-after-crimea-referendum-9196018.html 

That's from March 2014.  Obama and Co. were singing a much different tune about Russia before then.  It's not like Putin changed his stripes overnight.

I responded to your claim Russia only now has become a geopolitical threat, which is an incorrect statement. And Obama was incorrect in 2012 and Romney was right, its not really any more complicated than that.



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Final-Fan said:
NightDragon83 said:

That's from March 2014.  Obama and Co. were singing a much different tune about Russia before then.  It's not like Putin changed his stripes overnight.

But the question is, why the fuck are you talking about 2012 and the fact that we were trying to make diplomatic overtures to Russia and claiming that "they have magically become [our enemy] AFTER Hillary blew the election" if you are fully aware of the fact that relations soured YEARS before the 2016 elections?  Are you not being intellectually dishonest here? 

And it´s also very easy for people how brush of Russia to forget that Putin was elected as president in 2012, invaded Crimea in 2014 and went into Syria in 2015. When Medvedev was president, Russia was a lot easier to deal with than after 2012. I still think Obama was to naive regarding Russia though.



Final-Fan said:
NightDragon83 said:

1.  I still want to know from the "Trump stole the election via collusion with Russia" conspiracy mongers why Russia was brushed off as a non-factor during most of the Obama administration (mainly from '09-'12 when Hillary Clinton was SoS and was BFFs with Russia) and yet now they have magically become our #1 geopolitical threat after Hillary blew the election?

2.  How's that "reset button" working out for you guys?

"The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back!" - President Barack Obama's quip to candidate Mitt Romney during one of the 2012 election debates after Romney argued that Russia was one of if not THE biggest threats to our national security interests.  Obama in reply had to dig up Al Qaeda as the real boogeyman, despite the fact that OBL had been dead for over a year, AQ was a disjointed mess, and the post-Arab Spring Middle East had been thrown into chaos with power vacuums in failed states like Libya (which Obama helped destabilize) being filled by the likes of ISIS.

3.  “This is my last election … After my election I have more flexibility,” Obama said, expressing confidence that he would win a second term. “I will transmit this information to Vladimir,” said Medvedev, Putin’s protégé and long considered number two in Moscow’s power structure. https://www.snopes.com/obama-more-flexibility-russia/

Gee, imagine if Trump was caught on a hot mic prior to the election talking to Putin or some other high ranking official from Russia promising "more flexibility" after the election, presuming he would emerge as the winner.

1.  Maybe you missed it, but after "09-12" there was something that sort of happened in Crimea and it kind of upset some people.  There were sanctions and stuff. 

2.  The "reset" failed ... what's your point? 

3.  I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to insinuate here ... that Obama rigged the 2012 election?  That he was making promises as to where his "flexibility" would extend to?  That sitting Presidents should not negotiate with foreign powers? 

I personally interpret this as basically Obama saying "the elections are causing politics to get in the way of my actions, we'll talk later".  That is nothing like the allegations against Trump. 

1. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008.

2. If Obama was a threat, why couldn't he see this? He was our Commander-in-Chief. Was he stupid or something?

3. Obama said it on a hot mic. If it was so innocent why was it said on a hot mic? You know what else was said on a hot mic? "You can do anything. Grab em by the P." You know why it was said on a hot mic? Because saying it live would be a BAD thing.

4. Where is the proof Russians hacked the DNC? Why is it that during TWO initial DNC server investigations, none mentioned Russian hacking? One of them was after Bernie tried to steal Hillary Clinton's voter data (remember that?). The servers were investigated and attempts by Russian hacking were not mentioned.

Until magically Trump was starting to look like he could win. Just a coincidence, of course! At the time (June 2016) Democrats didn't care if it made them look stupid as long as it could politically hurt Trump.

This Russian crap is more partisan than Iraq WMDs. It's the same BS - no facts, just lies.



McDonaldsGuy said:
Final-Fan said:

1.  Maybe you missed it, but after "09-12" there was something that sort of happened in Crimea and it kind of upset some people.  There were sanctions and stuff. 

2.  The "reset" failed ... what's your point? 

3.  I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to insinuate here ... that Obama rigged the 2012 election?  That he was making promises as to where his "flexibility" would extend to?  That sitting Presidents should not negotiate with foreign powers? 

I personally interpret this as basically Obama saying "the elections are causing politics to get in the way of my actions, we'll talk later".  That is nothing like the allegations against Trump. 

1. Russia invaded Georgia in 2008.

2. If Obama was a threat, why couldn't he see this? He was our Commander-in-Chief. Was he stupid or something?

3. Obama said it on a hot mic. If it was so innocent why was it said on a hot mic? You know what else was said on a hot mic? "You can do anything. Grab em by the P." You know why it was said on a hot mic? Because saying it live would be a BAD thing.

4. Where is the proof Russians hacked the DNC? Why is it that during TWO initial DNC server investigations, none mentioned Russian hacking? One of them was after Bernie tried to steal Hillary Clinton's voter data (remember that?). The servers were investigated and attempts by Russian hacking were not mentioned.

Until magically Trump was starting to look like he could win. Just a coincidence, of course! At the time (June 2016) Democrats didn't care if it made them look stupid as long as it could politically hurt Trump.

This Russian crap is more partisan than Iraq WMDs. It's the same BS - no facts, just lies.

1,2.  You have no point, and certainly no relevant point.  Please at least try to stay on topic instead of veering off into the nearest zinger. 

3.  Let me spell it out for you.  Obama is saying, "if I negotiate about this topic now, Republicans will accuse me of sucking Russian dick.  Wait until after the elections."  Yes, that is something he would rather not have said live.  No, that isn't even remotely similar to the accusations against Trump.  In fact, it's the opposite:  the Trump campaign is accused of NOT waiting until after the elections to start doing things with Russia. 

4.  No, in fact I do not remember when Bernie tried to steal Clinton's voter data. 

If it's all BS and lies, how come Trump campaign officials have PLEADED GUILTY to improper dealings with foreign nationals and lying about their activities? 



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Final-Fan said:

1,2.  You have no point, and certainly no relevant point.  Please at least try to stay on topic instead of veering off into the nearest zinger. 

3.  Let me spell it out for you.  Obama is saying, "if I negotiate about this topic now, Republicans will accuse me of sucking Russian dick.  Wait until after the elections."  Yes, that is something he would rather not have said live.  No, that isn't even remotely similar to the accusations against Trump.  In fact, it's the opposite:  the Trump campaign is accused of NOT waiting until after the elections to start doing things with Russia. 

4.  No, in fact I do not remember when Bernie tried to steal Clinton's voter data. 

If it's all BS and lies, how come Trump campaign officials have PLEADED GUILTY to improper dealings with foreign nationals and lying about their activities? 

" "if I negotiate about this topic now, Republicans will accuse me of sucking Russian dick. "

I have a question - did you miss the entire 2012 election? The entire 2012 election was the entire Democratic party sucking Russian dick.

Why should I believe you when 15 years ago you told me Iraq had WMDs? What's the difference between this Russian hacking crap and Iraq WMDs?



McDonaldsGuy said:
Final-Fan said:

1,2.  You have no point, and certainly no relevant point.  Please at least try to stay on topic instead of veering off into the nearest zinger. 

3.  Let me spell it out for you.  Obama is saying, "if I negotiate about this topic now, Republicans will accuse me of sucking Russian dick.  Wait until after the elections."  Yes, that is something he would rather not have said live.  No, that isn't even remotely similar to the accusations against Trump.  In fact, it's the opposite:  the Trump campaign is accused of NOT waiting until after the elections to start doing things with Russia. 

4.  No, in fact I do not remember when Bernie tried to steal Clinton's voter data. 

If it's all BS and lies, how come Trump campaign officials have PLEADED GUILTY to improper dealings with foreign nationals and lying about their activities? 

" "if I negotiate about this topic now, Republicans will accuse me of sucking Russian dick. "

I have a question - did you miss the entire 2012 election? The entire 2012 election was the entire Democratic party sucking Russian dick.

Why should I believe you when 15 years ago you told me Iraq had WMDs? What's the difference between this Russian hacking crap and Iraq WMDs?

Why should you believe President Trump, when it seems both Bush and Obama made false statements during their precidencies? Since you are doing false equivalencies, why not be consistent atleast? 🙂